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Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.


StrengthInHonor

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Some take it to mean Jon will warg Ghost beofre being "revived" somehow. But I always took this to mean that Jon was a Warg and his "presence of mind" went from man to wolf to man (and possibly kept cycling). I don't think Jon's wounds at the end were fatal, but that's just my opinion. (Though when asked why he killed Jon GRRM said "You think Jon's dead?" which is pretty convincing for me ;) )

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Some take it to mean Jon will warg Ghost beofre being "revived" somehow. But I always took this to mean that Jon was a Warg and his "presence of mind" went from man to wolf to man (and possibly kept cycling). I don't think Jon's wounds at the end were fatal, but that's just my opinion. (Though when asked why he killed Jon GRRM said "You think Jon's dead?" which is pretty convincing for me ;) )

I think he meant "dead" as in "permanently dead."

I don't see how he could have possibly survived the stabbing. His first cut on the throat was deeper than he thought, lots of blood on his fingers. Right after that chapter, Barristan tells us how the blood often comes before the pain with serious injuries. Then he gets stabbed in the belly. He falls to his knees. Another stab in the back and he completely collapses. And then another stab, which he doesn't even feel any more. Even if he got immediate medical attention (which I highly doubt), it would be difficult to survive something like that.

Plus, it fits all the foreshadowing about wargs and skinchangers being able to cheat death.

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Here's something I posted long ago - but it is just my analysis.

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

I parsed these lines for the significance of the wording. These words are smartly written, and I think they give some evidence, although I am just offering an opinion.

First, note that Martin employs a theatre motif with Mel, her glamors that disguise people in costume and Martin’s language denotes a staged show:

she heard the whispered name Jon Snow

  • Whispering is associated with the theatre for an audience must be silent, and if they speak, their words should be whispers.
  • Actors whisper back stage giving directions and preparing for their entrance, etc.

a fluttering curtain.

  • Her flames are the stage lighting
  • as well as the curtains that open to reveal the performance area, or Mel’s prophetic visions.

Appearing and disappearing

A magician makes things disappear and reappear:

a shadow half-seen behind

I immediately thought SHADE from Homer. Look at what the Wiki says:

  • In literature and poetry, a shade (translating Greek σκιά Latin umbra) can be taken to mean the spirit or ghost of a dead person, residing in the underworld.
  • The image of an underworld where the dead live in shadow is common to the Ancient Near East, in Biblical Hebrew expressed by the term tsalmaveth, literally "death-shadow" The Witch of Endor in the First Book of Samuel notably conjures the ghost (owb) of Samuel.
  • Perhaps Mel’s vision, in this context, tells us that Jon Snow is DEAD when she sees him – he is already a shade. [she cannot see the death-shadow accurately]
  • Her vision is speaking to the fact that Jon is wolf = wolf is Jon.

Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again

  • Mel misinterprets her vision. Jon in death will move from JON to WOLF; then WOLF will move back to JON.
  • Martin intimates this will be done magically – for the theatre terms indicate it is like a magic show – so abracadabra! Jon is dead. Jon is Ghost.
  • In theatre, these would be interchangeable masks: Ghost returns Jon to Ghost.

Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark.

Mel sees how Jon died,[but she doesn't ealize it] as well as the men who killed him. [she earlier offered to give him their names].

Since the entire context of this passage is a magic show in miniature, whose magic will “assist” Ghost in return Jon back to his dead body?

The most logical choice is Ghost – with the help of his own brother Bran. Bran knows – the birds always mentioned in the rafters of the halls are keeping an eye on what’s going on.

Ghost = BR = Bran =CoF=Weirwood trees and their faces=the old gods.

After breaking down the wording here, it seems clearer now that she misinterpreted what she sees, as she has before.

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I think he meant "dead" as in "permanently dead."

I don't see how he could have possibly survived the stabbing. His first cut on the throat was deeper than he thought, lots of blood on his fingers. Right after that chapter, Barristan tells us how the blood often comes before the pain with serious injuries. Then he gets stabbed in the belly. He falls to his knees. Another stab in the back and he completely collapses. And then another stab, which he doesn't even feel any more. Even if he got immediate medical attention (which I highly doubt), it would be difficult to survive something like that.

Plus, it fits all the foreshadowing about wargs and skinchangers being able to cheat death.

First off, we don't know for sure how serious any of the sounds are, second, there's a lot of reason why he wouldn't "feel the fourth blade" such as it never came, and third, it's not like this would be the first time (or even the tenth time) that GRRM would give us a cliffhanger thinking that a character is dead when they weren't. It wouldn't even be the first time at the end of a book.

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First off, we don't know for sure how serious any of the sounds are

Well, we know that he lost consciousness because of the stabbings. We know, that Bowen's dagger went in right to the hilt. And there's no reason to assume, that the guy who stabbed Jon in the back held back or something.

second, there's a lot of reason why he wouldn't "feel the fourth blade" such as it never came

Yeah, that's stretching it pretty hard imo. The simplest answer is, that he became unconscious. Would George really write "he didn't feel the fourth blade" in order to set up a cop out like "Hehe, I didn't say the fourth blade stabbed him ;)"?

and third, it's not like this would be the first time (or even the tenth time) that GRRM would give us a cliffhanger thinking that a character is dead when they weren't. It wouldn't even be the first time at the end of a book.

Oh, I agree. And it wouldn't be the first time that he actually killed a character and brought him back to life via magic.

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When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough to it barely grazed his skin...He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had burried it...When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he have a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

Barely grazed skin = not fatal.

Belly punch = through several layers of clothing likely including leather and/or fur? (both which would provide a great resistance and would hold the blade in place) Depending on how long the blade was and where in the belly it was (if it hit any vital organs) this may or may not have been fatal.

Between shoulder blades = not necessarily fatal, but could have hit the lungs or the heart (but that would have been an instant death, and a rather painful one at that)

Didn't feel the fourth blade = Like I said, could be multiple reasons. Loosing consciousness, death, or it never hit.

It's very open to interpretation, but I'm of the opinion that GRRM wouldn't kill him yet, and that Jon isn't a character he would make undead (and I don't think Mel is as powerful as that anyways). He was also surrounded by people loyal to him, both black brothers and wildings, surely they would have fought to save him. I think he just lost consciousness and will be healed in the beginign of WoW but not without repercussions.

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Barely grazed skin = not fatal.

This is what Jon thinks. His fingers full of blood tell a different story. Right after this chapter Barristan tells us, that blood often comes before the pain with serious wounds.

Belly punch = through several layers of clothing likely including leather and/or fur? (both which would provide a great resistance and would hold the blade in place) Depending on how long the blade was and where in the belly it was (if it hit any vital organs) this may or may not have been fatal.

The leather and fur do nothing, since Jon said that Bowen punched him in the belly and the blade stayed where it was. Very likely that it just went through...

Between shoulder blades = not necessarily fatal, but could have hit the lungs or the heart (but that would have been an instant death, and a rather painful one at that)

Didn't feel the fourth blade = Like I said, could be multiple reasons. Loosing consciousness, death, or it never hit.

It's very open to interpretation, but I'm of the opinion that GRRM wouldn't kill him yet, and that Jon isn't a character he would make undead (and I don't think Mel is as powerful as that anyways). He was also surrounded by people loyal to him, both black brothers and wildings, surely they would have fought to save him. I think he just lost consciousness and will be healed in the beginign of WoW but not without repercussions.

You're welcome to believe that. I personally think, that it's very bad writing to "Just let Jon survive the stabbing" in context of the story, which is why I'm convinced that Jon did in fact die but will return from the dead. I guess we'll know when TWOW comes out. But I'm pretty convinced that I'm right about this. ;)

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We obviously wont know if he really died or not for at least a year or more, but if he did it is also possible that Mel could give him the kiss of fire and breathe life back into Jon just as Thoros did for Beric. I really dont believe that Mel possesses this power like Thoros does but she stayed at the wall for a reason. Maybe she stayed just because that is where the Others are, but maybe not.

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R'hllor was showing her that he was a warg. So far she is too stupid to make the connection. She really should wake up and realize what part of the world she is in, and what certain people can do here. Once she cops on to it, she will realize the same thing applies to the boy-wolf she sees.

Now if only she could draw, she might show Jon what the boy looks like. But still... she will feel that Bran is an enemy - because he serves different gods, and she is opposed to all other gods. It will be up to Jon to realize that, and that Bran is not HIS enemy.

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This is what Jon thinks. His fingers full of blood tell a different story. Right after this chapter Barristan tells us, that blood often comes before the pain with serious wounds.

The leather and fur do nothing, since Jon said that Bowen punched him in the belly and the blade stayed where it was. Very likely that it just went through...

You're welcome to believe that. I personally think, that it's very bad writing to "Just let Jon survive the stabbing" in context of the story, which is why I'm convinced that Jon did in fact die but will return from the dead. I guess we'll know when TWOW comes out. But I'm pretty convinced that I'm right about this. ;)

For what it's worth I thought Theon being alive after the sack of Winterfell was kinda cheap. And we didn't find out about it for two books!

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This is what Jon thinks. His fingers full of blood tell a different story. Right after this chapter Barristan tells us, that blood often comes before the pain with serious wounds.

The leather and fur do nothing, since Jon said that Bowen punched him in the belly and the blade stayed where it was. Very likely that it just went through...

You're welcome to believe that. I personally think, that it's very bad writing to "Just let Jon survive the stabbing" in context of the story, which is why I'm convinced that Jon did in fact die but will return from the dead. I guess we'll know when TWOW comes out. But I'm pretty convinced that I'm right about this. ;)

Agreed.

I also believe the entire reason for the prologue was to set up Jon's death and going into Ghost.

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This is what Jon thinks. His fingers full of blood tell a different story. Right after this chapter Barristan tells us, that blood often comes before the pain with serious wounds.

The leather and fur do nothing, since Jon said that Bowen punched him in the belly and the blade stayed where it was. Very likely that it just went through...

You're welcome to believe that. I personally think, that it's very bad writing to "Just let Jon survive the stabbing" in context of the story, which is why I'm convinced that Jon did in fact die but will return from the dead. I guess we'll know when TWOW comes out. But I'm pretty convinced that I'm right about this. ;)

Its bad writing to have what we think is the 1st or 2nd most important character survive a precarious situation through means he himself put in place, as in the alliances and loyalties he cultivated, but its not bad writing to have him die at the end of one book, only to be brought back to life in the next one through magic? If you say so. Nevermind that we know he won't be jon if he comes back that way. I think its going to be more along the lines of a medical resuscitation/healing that is claimed to be divine, like the ironborns drowning ritual. That type of ambiguity is totally in keeping with the tenor of the books. Some will think he was reborn, others that he merely survived, and it will be left open to interpretation.

Your point about selmy is troubling though. To counter it i was going to say he was still able to speak and reach for his sword, but then again, all he managed to say was why and he wasnt actually able to pull out longclaw. Still, grrm loves to mess with us and keep us guessing so with selmy he might have just been twisting the knife, so to speak.

I'd like to say that i read that chapter the first time in the back seat of a car on my way to a casino, where i promptly lost all my money at the poker tables because that chapter put me in such a bad mood that i was actually on tilt.

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The prologue doesnt really show the possibility of Jon returning to his body. I dont think Jon is done as a POV character.

I certainly agree with this as well.

I believe he will be reunited with his body somehow. But i Definitely think he is going to "Die" and go into "Ghost" for a time.

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Its bad writing to have what we think is the 1st or 2nd most important character survive a precarious situation through means he himself put in place, as in the alliances and loyalties he cultivated, but its not bad writing to have him die at the end of one book, only to be brought back to life in the next one through magic?

Not if it comes at a cost. Check out this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...rpose-spoilers/ plus this posting in the thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93729-shireens-true-purpose-spoilers/page__st__20#entry4769849

I totally see that happening.

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