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Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.


StrengthInHonor

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Great post! I like the connection to MMD, the fiery man, wolf and Viserion

And maybe it is not related to warging at all and quite simple (if you believe in R+L=J which funnily I don't): Jon was born a man, then raised by Ned and became a wolf (=Stark), now he's dead and again a man.

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And maybe it is not related to warging at all and quite simple (if you believe in R+L=J which funnily I don't): Jon was born a man, then raised by Ned and became a wolf (=Stark), now he's dead and again a man.

And maybe it is not related to warging at all and quite simple (if you believe in R+L=J which funnily I don't): Jon was born a man, then raised by Ned and became a wolf (=Stark), now he's dead and again a man.

I think the poster (The Other Take Ya) has nailed it. What a great observation. What Melisandre sees is the events in Vaes Dothrak when Mirri Maz Duur calls on powers ancient and terrible that no living man should see. Mel sees the great wolf and the burning man in the shadows of the tent dancing around the fire. A wolf, then a man, then a wolf. The man is wreathed in fire. Mel puts a face to the man; and her fire actually speaks Jon Snows name. So this isn't about warging; its about what happened in Dany's tent. She sees Jon limned or surrounded by fire coincidently in the flames that Viserion breaths. Fascinating!! The white dragon and the white wolf. Jon is both and the burning man walks with the wolf. It will be interesting to see what happens and what sort of visitor or visions he will receive in his near death state.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm bucking the trend, I don't completely agree with the OP, I'm kinda 50%. I think Jon will end up in BOTH a dragon AND a wolf and switch between the two of them.

I think the quote in the OP's bears a striking resemblance to another passage key event from earlier on in the story, and that looking at the two quotes combined, along with some other little foreshadowings in ADWD gives an idea of what may happen next:

First the OP's Mellisandre vision quote:

Now here is the second quote from AGOT (yes, that early in the series!)

AGOT Daenarys VIII

So what do we have in common between the two?

1) A man wreathed/limned (synonyms!) in flames showing up to the blood magic ceremony. He was never identified before but Mel knows he's Jon.

2) Dany and Mel both see the shadow of a wolf. Dany describes it as a great wolf. She may not know what direwolves are at this point in the story so again, she may not be able to fully identify it as such.

3) Dany also sees those shadows outside of the tent where Mirri Maz Duur is about to do the blood sacrifice ritual that will sacrifice unborn son of the blood of the dragon Rhaego for Drogo, and eventually one of the dragons. Mel sees the shadows "as if behind a fluttering curtain". Dany's tent was made of sandsilk. So a very light material that would catch the breeze. So this is why Mel is seeing shadows "as if behind a fluttering curtain."

For some reason Jon is linked in and shows up to this blood magic ritual here, and perhaps Rheago himself. And this ritual eventually helps in the rebirth of the dragons.

So Melisandre's vision is kind of confirmation that Jon showed up in the tent at the blood magic ritual. For some reason, when Rheago was being sacrificed - Oh look! Jon's and Ghost's shadows comes calling. Considering Stannis' use of his shadow to make a shadowbaby, we know shadows are important. If Dany's HotU vision is of Stannis, we know she sees him not casting a shadow. I hope Jon's shadow wasn't inadvertedly sacrificed Mirri Maz Duur style. :(

Now Mel's vision is different from Dany's in that it shows Jon's shadow changing between the main limned/wreathed in fire and the shadow of the wolf. This is new. In addition to that we have Mel seeing two different places where there are skulls all around. Mel assumes the skulls mean death in her thought, but maybe she's interperting that wrong and the skulls are not symbolic but descriptive. As we know, Mel gets a lot wrong.

It looks like the first place could be Hardhome, the caves, (perhaps the screaming caves?) could indicate that, plus Eastwatch with its message "dead things in the water" is another candidate. I guess the key is the cliffs and the caves. If that matches the description of Eastwatch too it could also be there. But at least we have something to go on for the first place.

The second place doesn't get a lot of detail, but, lots of skulls again. Does Mel know this place? We do know Mel doesn't make note of the place, so perhaps assuming that death will be around him at Hardin's tower where he gets stabbed may not exactly be likely. Is she just being general or doesn't know how to describe the second place, after the first place was described so meticulously? Then Mel thinks back to her earlier warning, but she doesn't actually describe seeing daggers in this particular vision itself. So maybe she's making a leap of logic, probably faulty, here that this vision is fully related to previous ones she may have had. She has been seeing the daggers for awhile now...

Finally the foreshadowing:

ADWD The Kingbreaker:

1) Skahaz tells Barristan he wants to attack at the hour of the wolf. Barristan goes over his memories about how went in at the hour of the wolf and then emerged with King Aerys at the hour of the wolf after he was held prisoner in Duskendale. Maybe he's about to emerge with another king around? Wolf is mentioned 3 times in this segment.

ADWD The Queen's hand

2)

Geez and this chapter just has to have been right after Jon's assasination (attempt?) too. I do wonder if GRRM decided to just stick the proverbial dagger in a little deeper on all of us. But there are a couple odd things about this passage where he seems to be baiting us to take a closer look. First the wolf with the lolling tongue (dead?) IS new in Meereen and second, Barristan remarks on it. Everytime Barristan remarks and notices something and then just ... goes on with his day makes me want to take a second look at it. Especially since his whole POV seems to scream to me "I'm a character that doesn't notice subtlety, notice anything I don't avid rereaders? Enjoy!". Its kinda fun.

Finally, the whole passage ends on a question, so the fool is dead hunh? really? You think so? Which fool were we talking about again?

3) So how good is Jon's connection with Ghost right now?

Jon VII

That's quite the improvement, in Jon I he was just vaguely remembering the wolf dreams as he woke up.

"Ok, so what?" You're thinking. "He's shown no connection to dragons. There's no proof anyone can connect to one the way he does with Ghost!"

Well there is this... Jon VIII, Val is talking to Jon about Gilly's son.

At that moment, the dragons were underneath the pyramid in Meereen. Trapped in the dark, except for the times they could light things up with their own flame. Jon sees dark wings. Did he see Rheagal maybe? That would mean he was in Viserion.

So that's why I think the vision is more about how Jon will end up after being stabbed, and not so much on how he'll be healed. I'm sure he will be brought back somehow, but not before he bounces back and forth between Ghost and Viserion.

edit: oh ya another reason why I think he'll be in Viserion is that the vision has him outlined in red and orange tongues of fire. Viserion's fire is gold shot through with red and orange according to the wiki. Same colours.

edit: I also forgot about "the drunken" ash he and Edd notice too. It had the broken off branch for a nose. I thought it was a foreshadow that Tyrion was about to become important too.

edit oct 8th: Waitasec. It just occurred to me that Val just explicitly says Mel sees "Kings and dragons" in her flames. Is Val being super truthful here? And how does she know what Mel sees. I can't remember if people simply speculate she's a woods witch or if she is one for sure but the singing and weirwood mask pin make me tend to believe she is. We know she saw bloodraven and Bran in the flames watching her, could they be telling the woods witches what Mel sees? hmmm...

TWOW spoilers...

Did anyone notice how odd it was that with all the soldiers running around the things the dragons wanted to snack on was the plague infested soldiers/people launched from the trebuchets? Something that seemed to be of most benefit to the protection of the city, if you had intelligence enough to notice the plague on them that is. Otherwise you would think a nice big army platoon would be a more efficient snack for a dragon with them all marching together in one place like that. Smart dragons! Seems a bit smarter then the dog-level intelligence. ;)

And it would fit in with my theory that Viserion is destined for Jon. If it is so, then I think Viserion will be unusually cold-resistant for a dragon and that tie into Jon's character as he is a dragon of the north if R+L= J is confirmed.

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It's an intriguing theory that (I won't quote it again) but is there any other confirmed instances of people seeing the past in the flames?



I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the flames showed the viewer future events.



If Mel sees the events of Danys tent she would be looking back years.


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Seems like there may be another snippet of Meereen in the vision, it occurs earlier then the tent parts of the vision.


Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

I know Meereen's blue sky has been described as such in the Dany chapters somewhere. Can't remember where off the top of my head. Maybe as Drogon takes off from Daznak's Pit? I'll keep a look out for it.

It's an intriguing theory that (I won't quote it again) but is there any other confirmed instances of people seeing the past in the flames?

I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the flames showed the viewer future events.

If Mel sees the events of Danys tent she would be looking back years.

On people seeing past visions in the flames:

I think the strongest evidence comes from Mel's vision in ADWD when she sees her own past in the flames:


Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

It could be argued that this is just a simple memory, but I think think that's obviously wrong, since everything around the whole passage shows her visions of what is happening now (bloodravens watching her) what has been her past (her slave auction) and she specifically seems to drive the visions towards looking for future events, instead of paying attention to what's happening now or wondering why her God thinks something from her past is relevant. We've just been assuming Mel only sees the future because she only talks about the future parts of her visions.

Other things I've found:

Stannis on what you can see in the flames:


“There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you’ll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that’s all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all.

Pretty vague if you ask me, but it seems like Stannis is saying she can see all shadows, not just the specific ones in the future. So not the best evidence.

From ACOK Davos I - What Ser Axell Florent sees in the flames:


“The Lady Melisandre tells us that sometimes R’hllor permits his faithful servants to glimpse the future in flames. It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King’s Landing and the throne that is his by rights.”

I've seen this theorized that he saw Drogon and Dany's wedding in AGOT:


The sun was only a quarter of the way up the sky when she saw her first man die. Drums were beating as some of the women danced for the khal. Drogo watched without expression, but his eyes followed their movements, and from time to time he would toss down a bronze medallion for the women to fight over.

This is admittedly a pretty circumstantial example, since we don't have confirmation on what the "maidens" were wearing at Drogo's feast to match the color.

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Ok. I am 100% against the Jon dies, goes into ghost, then returns to his body. That is such a blatant Robin Hobb rip-off that there is no way I could possibly believe GRRM would do it. BUT>>>



Jon going Bloody-Nine on some bitches is the best theory I have ever heard!. I would love to see him going down on his knees covered in blood, and then rising from his knees and unleashing the Ghost on them.


I would even buy right into the superficial wounds through fur and leather, back stab missed vitals, and 4th stab actually missed if Ghost-Jon is the result.


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Ok. I am 100% against the Jon dies, goes into ghost, then returns to his body. That is such a blatant Robin Hobb rip-off that there is no way I could possibly believe GRRM would do it. BUT>>>

Jon going Bloody-Nine on some bitches is the best theory I have ever heard!. I would love to see him going down on his knees covered in blood, and then rising from his knees and unleashing the Ghost on them.

I would even buy right into the superficial wounds through fur and leather, back stab missed vitals, and 4th stab actually missed if Ghost-Jon is the result.

It would be pretty great right. It's even supported by a little bit of evidence.

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Ok. I am 100% against the Jon dies, goes into ghost, then returns to his body. That is such a blatant Robin Hobb rip-off that there is no way I could possibly believe GRRM would do it. BUT>>>

Jon going Bloody-Nine on some bitches is the best theory I have ever heard!. I would love to see him going down on his knees covered in blood, and then rising from his knees and unleashing the Ghost on them.

I would even buy right into the superficial wounds through fur and leather, back stab missed vitals, and 4th stab actually missed if Ghost-Jon is the result.

I predict major disappointment in your future. You don't do such heavy foreshadowing for this event just to abandon it for some joke explanation. And no one cares about Robin Hobb. Most ASOIAF fans don't even know about her work.

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I predict major disappointment in your future. You don't do such heavy foreshadowing for this event just to abandon it for some joke explanation. And no one cares about Robin Hobb. Most ASOIAF fans don't even know about her work.

George does.

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I predict major disappointment in your future. You don't do such heavy foreshadowing for this event just to abandon it for some joke explanation. And no one cares about Robin Hobb. Most ASOIAF fans don't even know about her work.

I remember just loving the first of her Farseer books - Assassin's Apprentice. I thought it was amazing... though at the time, I felt a little let down by the end of the trilogy. Probably it didn't provide enough of the "happy ending" I was looking for as a young reader... maybe I'd feel more satisfied now, if I read it again. Looking back, the plot and character names actually do seem to have some interesting parallels with the ASOIAF narratives... "Prince Regal?" "Six Duchies?" "Forged Ones?"

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Penetrating gut wound (second blade) - Mortal wound in >99% of all instances in Westeros.

Penetrating wound to the torso (3rd blade)- Somewhat less than 99% fatal, but still very, very high.

He's had both, plus other wounds of less-certain severity (1st and 4th blades).

The Hound was right... pricked in the gut = Dead.

Even less-serious superficial wounds have a very high rate of becoming septic. Septisemia kill more than anything else. Boiled wine apparently just doesn't cut it...

Jon is either flat out dead or will soon be. He will of course come back, with the assistance of Melisandre, where-in she will secure his trust, much as she secured Stannis's trust.

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Penetrating gut wound (second blade) - Mortal wound in >99% of all instances in Westeros.

Penetrating wound to the torso (3rd blade)- Somewhat less than 99% fatal, but still very, very high.

He's had both, plus other wounds of less-certain severity (1st and 4th blades).

The Hound was right... pricked in the gut = Dead.

Even less-serious superficial wounds have a very high rate of becoming septic. Septisemia kill more than anything else. Boiled wine apparently just doesn't cut it...

Jon is either flat out dead or will soon be. He will of course come back, with the assistance of Melisandre, where-in she will secure his trust, much as she secured Stannis's trust.

As the particulars of the knife wounds has already been discussed, I will simply say that the extent of the wounds is far less clear than you imply. Any number of variables could be involved in reducing all of the wounds jon suffered to minor flesh wounds.

I predict major disappointment in your future. You don't do such heavy foreshadowing for this event just to abandon it for some joke explanation. And no one cares about Robin Hobb. Most ASOIAF fans don't even know about her work.

The explanation isn't a joke and the theory is buillt on at least 2 points of forshadowing. Jon may not die at all.

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Because the first thought that most readers have on reading the chapter ( knowing the locations of the stab wounds and that Jon thinks there will be a fourth ), is that Jon is dead or dying ; because ,after everything that's been written about Mel and other red priests ,Mel seems the obvious avenue for Jon's resurrection or healing... these things seem to me like the misdirection that GRRM has warned about so often.


That he's left some ambiguity in the descriptions of the wounds, and that he has given some hints that there are other characters at the wall who could possibly be of help to Jon, when you start thinking about them .. Val, Morna, maybe even Borroq .. (one of whom,Val, has pointedly warned Jon of the dangers in getting involved, magically, with Mel) ... argues against accepting the obvious conclusions , for me.


In my opinion , GRRM has purposely made these characters stand out, but has been coy about revealing much about them. They are all aligned to the old gods.. Morna spontaneously kissed his hand and swore to Jon fervently, and although it's written ambiguously , Borroq called Jon brother and his boar may have bowed to Jon and Ghost . There's an attraction between Jon and Val and she and her sister Dalla may deserve the description Mance gave Dalla , "wise woman " , in the sense of a title , not just an opinion.


I suspect they will come into the foreground in the aftermath of the attack.


Snowfyre Chorus.. In regard to Jon's clumsiness,you might like this ;



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As the particulars of the knife wounds has already been discussed, I will simply say that the extent of the wounds is far less clear than you imply. Any number of variables could be involved in reducing all of the wounds jon suffered to minor flesh wounds.

Even if it was said that someone thrust a longsword right through his left eye, you'd find a way to say that it might have been a non-fatal wound...

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Interesting. I'd done some rereading of Clydas... but not of Mully. Maybe I'll take another look.

Last time I read through Jon's last chapter, it struck me that Queen Selyse was almost hostile in her disapproval of Jon. I also thought Mel seemed too confident in her prediction about answers coming from the skies.

In short, if you ask me, GRRM did a great job making everyone look suspicious... (and besides, I think Jon sorta set himself up with a bunch of stupid, naive decisions).

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Even if it was said that someone thrust a longsword right through his left eye, you'd find a way to say that it might have been a non-fatal wound...

Well, last time I checked, taking an axe to the head is lethal too. I think we both know how that worked out though.

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