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R+L=J v. 56


Stubby

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My biggest problem with this whole theory is that Jon Targaryen sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me. I just can't process that he could be Targ. It's so ridiculous to me. I don't want to offend anyone here, I see that you put much effort into discussing this, but I just don't see it happening. For me, he's a Snow, son of a Stark, and not a Targ in any way possible..

You know, a short first name is actually recommended choice for a long surname :P

Why don't you take your time, look around, perhaps check those essays linked in the reference guide, and see how it all adds up? Even if Rhaegar is Jon's biological father, he will always be the son of Ned as the one who passed on his values to him, and a Stark to the bone. It is not even impossible that he will reject his Targaryen heritage. There's still so much potential unrevealed...

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I doubt that GRRM's point is that some bloodlines are magical... I am not buying it, especially given how he treats nobility...

Thanks for the link. I'll see it... As for Dornish, I always thought there is more to Elia than meets the eye. I actually think we might discover that Rhaegar didn't do any of this without Elia, especially given Ashara's closeness and involvement. She was, after all, one of Elia's closest companions.

I agree 100%

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Well, at least you admit being in deep denial and neglecting loads of evidence and hints and inconsistencies because of personal preferences and wihes.

I'm really trying to be nice, but what evidence is that? Im dying to hear this.

Why don't you take your time, look around, perhaps check those essays linked in the reference guide, and see how it all adds up? Even if Rhaegar is Jon's biological father, he will always be the son of Ned as the one who passed on his values to him, and a Stark to the bone. It is not even impossible that he will reject his Targaryen heritage. There's still so much potential unrevealed...

I've read a lot about this, far from all of it, but a lot, and I simply don't find it plausible. Things like GNC maybe yes, but this theory just doesnt sit with me. Not that it needs to be plausible, this is fantasy series in the end...

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I'm really trying to be nice, but what evidence is that? Im dying to hear this.

I posted the refference guide with 55 threads of proofs. I am certain you'll be able to find some

I've read a lot about this, far from all of it, but a lot, and I simply don't find it plausible. Things like GNC maybe yes, but this theory just doesnt sit with me. Not that it needs to be plausible, this is fantasy series in the end...

This is not about whether we like it or not. It's about objective analysis and interpretation of given clues.

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As for the non-Targ looks:

Rhaenys: dark hair and eyes (Dornish look after Elia)

Daeron: sallow skin, sandy brown hair and a blonde beard

Baelor Breakspear: dark hair

Valarr:dark hair, with a silver-golden drill, blue eyes

Alysanne: blue eyes

Bittersteel: dark hair

Bloodraven: albino

Plus, I fail to see why Jon not inheriting Rhaegar's looks is an issue while not inheriting any other man's (if Lyanna's son) or woman's (if Ned's) is not.

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I'm really trying to be nice, but what evidence is that? Im dying to hear this.

I've read a lot about this, far from all of it, but a lot, and I simply don't find it plausible. Things like GNC maybe yes, but this theory just doesnt sit with me. Not that it needs to be plausible, this is fantasy series in the end...

I posted the refference guide with 55 threads of proofs. I am certain you'll be able to find some

This is not about whether we like it or not. It's about objective analysis and interpretation of given clues.

exactly this.

And besides, inconsistencies mentioned by Ygrain on the previous page, all to be explained if the theory would not be true:

Then you have to explain what happened to her child, why Ned never mentions it, what promises he made to her and what price he paid to keep them, what lies had been haunting him for fourteen years (that at the time when Jon is fourteen), why is Jon's mother's name such a secret, what are those secrets too dangerous to share with the loved ones that Ned harbours, why he recalls Lyanna pleading in the context of murdered children and Robert turning away...

in addition to that:

What were the KG doing at the ToJ and why did they refer to their vow so fervently?

Why does Ned find Lyanna in a "bed of blood", associated with childbirth by several characters?

I'm dying to hear you explaining these, for a start.

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As for the non-Targ looks:

Rhaenys: dark hair and eyes (Dornish look after Elia)

Daeron: sallow skin, sandy brown hair and a blonde beard

Baelor Breakspear: dark hair

Valarr:dark hair, with a silver-golden drill, blue eyes

Alysanne: blue eyes

Bittersteel: dark hair

Bloodraven: albino

Plus, I fail to see why Jon not inheriting Rhaegar's looks is an issue while not inheriting any other man's (if Lyanna's son) or woman's (if Ned's) is not.

Crakpot, be warned...I was on this Lemore = Ashara thread, and there's was the question of eye color...violet eyes, specifically. I've read (on wiki, which is not always the best source, yes) that true violet eyes are in truth associated to albinos, because true violet has a lot a red pigmentation...anyhow, Bloodraven = albino; Ghost = albino. and...Targ + violet eyes = albino tendency (underscored by the 'silver' hair and fair skin) and Jon + Ghost = Targ ;)

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I've read a lot about this, far from all of it, but a lot, and I simply don't find it plausible. Things like GNC maybe yes, but this theory just doesnt sit with me. Not that it needs to be plausible, this is fantasy series in the end...

If you have read a lot about this, you undoubtedly know what regular posters and contributors have been doing for 56 versions of this thread and several related ones (AM's 'A King's in Hiding: adding it all up' and its sequel for example). It's not a work based on emotional investment or personal preference. It's an ongoing, inexhausitible, in depth textual analysis that never stops to surprise us with new discoveries. Textual evidence has been brought forth (the first page of each version has a synthesis of key facts). Narrative clues and foreshadowings. Metaphorical research has been generous with results (the symbolisms of the winter rose or the rubies come to mind). Unsuspectable and powerful allegories have been found (try and re-read with an 'open' eye the passage of the Mudd King aka Tristifer in ASoS...). Mythological and literary parallels have been drawn: with Greek-Roman mithology, Classical Tragedy, Celtic and Northern Mithology, the Arthurian Cicle etc. Countless historical parallels (the War of the two Roses, the Angevin Plantagenet dynasty, the Roman Republic and Empire, Frederick II, medieval stupor mundi etc.). Hints and bits dropped by people involved in the production of the TV series (producers, writers, actors). Visual clues present in the GoT Graphic Novel (having the comics GRRM's imprimatur). New infos released with the app or old relevant ones to be found in the D&E novels. Seven Hells, even Genetics, Psychology and... Obstetrics have been contributing to our discussions!

It's such an analytical method and approach that gives the theory plausibility. Whether you, me or any of us like it... or not.

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If you have read a lot about this, you undoubtedly know what regular posters and contributors have been doing for 56 versions of this thread and several related ones (AM's 'A King's in Hiding: adding it all up' and its sequel for example). It's not a work based on emotional investment or personal preference. It's an ongoing, inexhausitible, in depth textual analysis that never stops to surprise us with new discoveries. Textual evidence has been brought forth (the first page of each version has a synthesis of key facts). Narrative clues and foreshadowings. Metaphorical research has been generous with results (the symbolisms of the winter rose or the rubies come to mind). Unsuspectable and powerful allegories have been found (try and re-read with an 'open' eye the passage of the Mudd King aka Tristifer in ASoS...). Mythological and literary parallels have been drawn: with Greek-Roman mithology, Classical Tragedy, Celtic and Northern Mithology, the Arthurian Cicle etc. Countless historical parallels (the War of the two Roses, the Angevin Plantagenet dynasty, the Roman Republic and Empire, Frederick II, medieval stupor mundi etc.). Hints and bits dropped by people involved in the production of the TV series (producers, writers, actors). Visual clues present in the GoT Graphic Novel (having the comics GRRM's imprimatur). New infos in the app. Seven Hells, even Genetics, Psychology and... Obstetrics have been contributing to our discussions!

It's such an analytical method and approach that gives the theory plausibility. Whether you, me or any of us like it... or not.

Bravo!!!

:agree:

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Crakpot, be warned...I was on this Lemore = Ashara thread, and there's was the question of eye color...violet eyes, specifically. I've read (on wiki, which is not always the best source, yes) that true violet eyes are in truth associated to albinos, because true violet has a lot a red pigmentation...anyhow, Bloodraven = albino; Ghost = albino. and...Targ + violet eyes = albino tendency (underscored by the 'silver' hair and fair skin) and Jon + Ghost = Targ ;)

Genetically, you are right. Albinism is inherited by recessive gene allels and most likely it would fit into Targaryen gene pool. Nice catch about Jon + Ghost suggesting he is Targ. As I said, for me is the mere fact there is no albino wolf in the nature enough.

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You are definitely right that the Targaryen look almost perfectly describes actual human albinos - purple eyes and silver-blonde hair is exactly what they look like. Bloodraven's albinism (red eyes, white hair) doesn't exist in humans.

Not just that. Bloodraven's albinism is impossible due to not having both Targaryen parents. If we claim that albinism is part of Targaryen genetic pool, then both parents would have to be gene carriors so BR would be albino. And, we know nothing about Blackwoods having albinism in its gene pool.

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So, I just read the Tower of the Hand essay that is in the "reference guide" post at the beginning of this thread. It is clever. But it seems to assume a crucial fact: that Ashara Dayne is really dead. Look at this:

Whether or not Ashara is Jon's mother, she killed herself after the war was done. Why? There could be several reasons.

1) Grief at her brother Arthur Dayne's death at Eddard's hands.

2) Grief that Eddard fathered Jon off someone else. (Perhaps Wylla? See below)

3) Grief that Eddard fathered Jon off her, but still wants to return to Catelyn, his true wife

4) A combination of 1) and 2)

5) A combination of 1) and 3)

In conclusion, we know that Eddard and Ashara were a love interest, but the rumors concerning that fact that she is Jon's mother may or may not have any merit. Her suicide was most likely a combination of several factors. While some evidence points toward the fact that Ashara is Jon's mother, we have more tempting prospects with more evidence, as discussed below.

The wiki article from the "reference guide" makes the same assumption.

That is a huge assumption. If you take it away, and consider for a minute the possibility that Ashara faked her death, much of the evidence that supposedly supports the R+L=J theory suddenly becomes ambiguous. Make the opposite assumption -- that Ashara faked her suicide and disappeared when Eddard Stark arrived at Starfall after killing Arthur Dayne -- and it seems more likely that she is keeping whatever secret the Kingsguard were hiding at the Tower of Joy.

Take these questions that another poster asked.

Then you have to explain what happened to her child,

Young Griff, with Septa L'Ashara

why Ned never mentions it

Eddard does not his nephew and his mistress found by Robert or Catelyn

what promises he made to her and what price he paid to keep them,

Promise = keep Young Griff safely hidden, price = does not get to see his mistress Ashara again

what lies had been haunting him for fourteen years (that at the time when Jon is fourteen),

Promised to marry Ashara before he slept with her/maybe even secretly married her in front of a tree; had to renege/put Ashara aside to secure the Tully alliance; has to pretend Jon is his bastard when Jon is really his trueborn heir; lies to Robert about Jon's mother being a common woman named Wylla . . .

why is Jon's mother's name such a secret,

Doesn't want Jon looking for -- or worse, finding -- his mother and exposing the plot

what are those secrets too dangerous to share with the loved ones that Ned harbours,

Doesn't want Catelyn knowing about his broken betrothal/dissolved marriage to Ashara, Eddard + Ashara = Jon and Jon may have a better claim to Winterfell than Robb, doesn't want Robert knowing about Young Griff . . .

why he recalls Lyanna pleading in the context of murdered children and Robert turning away...

Protecting Young Griff from Robert like he could not protect Aegon, afraid Catelyn might kill Jon if she finds out the truth . . .

So it looks like a lot of the R+L=J theory hangs on the assumption that Ashara Dayne is dead. But that assumption may just not be true.

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Promised to marry Ashara before he slept with her/maybe even secretly married her in front of a tree; had to renege/put Ashara aside to secure the Tully alliance; has to pretend Jon is his bastard when Jon is really his trueborn heir; lies to Robert about Jon's mother being a common woman named Wylla . . .

Sorry, I meant to say that this part is supported by this passage from the Citadel's essay, which is also in the handy "reference guide".

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war. Interestingly, this contradicts suggestions from Catelyn and Ned that Jon was concieved some time after Robb’s conception (in itself an event taking place several months into the war), so either GRRM is mistaken or he has accidentally clarified a piece of information which was intended to be obfuscated in the series (I: 54, 92). Our own view is that the latter is the case, as GRRM is rather precise about the relative birthdates in a way that seems too absolute to be a random error.

If Jon is Eddard's firstborn and he was betrothed or married to Ashara, this explains why Eddard is lying and saying that Jon is younger than Robb. Otherwise, why would he bother lying about Jon's age?

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So, I just read the Tower of the Hand essay that is in the "reference guide" post at the beginning of this thread. It is clever. But it seems to assume a crucial fact: that Ashara Dayne is really dead. Look at this:

The wiki article from the "reference guide" makes the same assumption.

That is a huge assumption. If you take it away, and consider for a minute the possibility that Ashara faked her death, much of the evidence that supposedly supports the R+L=J theory suddenly becomes ambiguous. Make the opposite assumption -- that Ashara faked her suicide and disappeared when Eddard Stark arrived at Starfall after killing Arthur Dayne -- and it seems more likely that she is keeping whatever secret the Kingsguard were hiding at the Tower of Joy.

Take these questions that another poster asked.

Young Griff, with Septa L'Ashara

Eddard does not his nephew and his mistress found by Robert or Catelyn

Promise = keep Young Griff safely hidden, price = does not get to see his mistress Ashara again

Promised to marry Ashara before he slept with her/maybe even secretly married her in front of a tree; had to renege/put Ashara aside to secure the Tully alliance; has to pretend Jon is his bastard when Jon is really his trueborn heir; lies to Robert about Jon's mother being a common woman named Wylla . . .

Doesn't want Jon looking for -- or worse, finding -- his mother and exposing the plot

Doesn't want Catelyn knowing about his broken betrothal/dissolved marriage to Ashara, Eddard + Ashara = Jon and Jon may have a better claim to Winterfell than Robb, doesn't want Robert knowing about Young Griff . . .

Protecting Young Griff from Robert like he could not protect Aegon, afraid Catelyn might kill Jon if she finds out the truth . . .

So it looks like a lot of the R+L=J theory hangs on the assumption that Ashara Dayne is dead. But that assumption may just not be true.

Uhm...you are suggesting that Young Griff is...the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? or...?

But what of Varys and Illyrio? What's the deal then? Why support Aegon, if he is not in fact a Mopatis? And Ashara = Lemore, there's plenty of things here too, that don't add up. Eye color, for once. Plus...Barristan says Ashara's girl was still born, so unless Ashara got pregnant again, right after the still birth, then she can't be Jon's mother.

You know, we might as well argue that Lyanna is not dead, and that she is septa Lemore.

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If Jon is Eddard's firstborn and he was betrothed or married to Ashara, this explains why Eddard is lying and saying that Jon is younger than Robb. Otherwise, why would he bother lying about Jon's age?

I am not sure that this conclusion is valid. First, Ned couldn't be married to Ashara, because he would not marry Cat. At the time, Ashara was still alive. As for bethrotal, it's simple answer, the engagements were off once Ned married Catelyn. Child Ashara got was a girl, according to Barristan, which of course isn't the most reliable source, plus the child's birth is nine months after Harrenhall, that's why the rumors some Stark (most likely Brandon) disgraced Ashara. For Jon to be Ashara's son, he would need to be concieved 1-3 months in war, and Ashara was nowhere near Eddard at that time. So, it doesn't fit.

As for lying about Jon's age, I don't know he lied. He just brought the child, said they would raise him, and that's that. I doubt Ned troubled Cat with Jon's age, knowing that Jon's status as bastard. But given that Jon celebrated his nameday, Ned must have decided how old he is. Most likely, it was the day he found him, or the approximate day. I don't see the need of lying if child's status has already been determined.

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Uhm...you are suggesting that Young Griff is...the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? or...?

Yes.

But what of Varys and Illyrio? What's the deal then? Why support Aegon, if he is not in fact a Mopatis?

Same reason they supported Daenerys, who also was not a Mopatis.

And Ashara = Lemore, there's plenty of things here too, that don't add up. Eye color, for once. Plus...Barristan says Ashara's girl was still born, so unless Ashara got pregnant again, right after the still birth, then she can't be Jon's mother.

You know, we might as well argue that Lyanna is not dead, and that she is septa Lemore.

Do you have any reason to believe that Lemore's eyes aren't purple? Or that the stillborn daughter isn't a cover story (and one that never reached Catelyn or Cersei, at that)?

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Do you have any reason to believe that Lemore's eyes aren't purple? Or that the stillborn daughter isn't a cover story (and one that never reached Catelyn or Cersei, at that)?

And do you have any reason to believe Lemore's eyes are purple? It works both ways... Lack of evidence isn't an evidence

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Ned erects a statue of Lyanna in the crypts.

I believe hers is the only statue of a Stark female. All the other statues are of the old Kings of Winter and later lords of Winterfell, (Brandon would have been lord had he lived).

In my opinion, Ned was not only doing silent homage to her own royal status as a Princess in marriage to Rhaegar, but also keeping her physical image close to the son she made him promise to protect.

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