R+L=J v. 56

[Jory Cassel]

I dont know, I haven't read probably 1% of all theories, so I can't connect all the dots, or can't see all the dots. But I'm 99.99% convinced that this is just not gonna happen. Jon is a Stark bastard, Lyannas or Neds, I don't know for sure, but certainly not Rhaegars. So here are my reasons..

In the books Lyanna was described as wild, so much that Ned sees Arya in her, Rhaegar was somber, sad and dutiful, looking at it that way, they were probably perfect for each other. But if Rhaegar really was his father, he'd probably have at least some of the Targ features, but he is described as a pure Stark (lean, brown hair, grey eyes). Further on, if he was Rhaegars son, he probably wouldnt get Ghost, and he for sure wouldnt be able to warg into Ghost. To further on, even though he is a Snow, he chooses duty and at least some honor at NW insted of doing whatever bastards do in Westeros.

I know that is short, and probably not developed as all the other theories, but my point stands, he's a pure Stark, despite being a Snow. The seed is strong. And that is all.

btw. How ridiculous does Jon Targaryen sound? Even Jon Stark sounds bad. Jon is a Snow, his duty is on the wall, everything else I simply dont see happening.

Sorry, but you're reasoning simply does not work out. As theguyfromthevale pointed out, all of Ned's kids except for Arya have the Tully look, that does not mean that they aren't Stark.

And why wouldn't he get Ghost? Lyanna Stark would still be his mother, he'd still have as much Stark blood in him as if he was Ned's bastard.

What does the bolded part contribute in regard to whether he is Rhaegar's son or not?

And why is he "a pure Stark", and why would he be less Stark if he'd be Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son instead of Ned's Bastard?

[The guy from the Vale]

I dont know, I haven't read probably 1% of all theories, so I can't connect all the dots, or can't see all the dots. But I'm 99.99% convinced that this is just not gonna happen. Jon is a Stark bastard, Lyannas or Neds, I don't know for sure, but certainly not Rhaegars. So here are my reasons..

In the books Lyanna was described as wild, so much that Ned sees Arya in her, Rhaegar was somber, sad and dutiful, looking at it that way, they were probably perfect for each other. But if Rhaegar really was his father, he'd probably have at least some of the Targ features, but he is described as a pure Stark (lean, brown hair, grey eyes). Further on, if he was Rhaegars son, he probably wouldnt get Ghost, and he for sure wouldnt be able to warg into Ghost. To further on, even though he is a Snow, he chooses duty and at least some honor at NW insted of doing whatever bastards do in Westeros.

I know that is short, and probably not developed as all the other theories, but my point stands, he's a pure Stark, despite being a Snow. The seed is strong. And that is all.

btw. How ridiculous does Jon Targaryen sound? Jon is a Snow, his duty is on the wall, everything else I simply dont see happening.

Why can't Jon be Lyanna's child with Rhaegar? Not going into the bastardrs debate right now, because that would be opening another can of worms - But if you already accept Jon might be Lyanna's son, why do you think his father might be anyone but Rhaegar? And who would that be?

As for Jon being "pure" Stark - he's half Stark by blood, and 100% Stark by nurture. Of course he will look like a Stark to most outsiders - but then Jon has a firey passion, a temper, that none of the Stark kids have. It is, for me, very interesting that the two most empathic POV characters are Dany... and Jon.

As for Ghost, why would Rhaegar being his father exclude Jon from the Stark heritage as long as his mother is Lyanna? And notice that Ghost is an albino - just like Bloodraven, the only other known Targ/First Man descendant.

ETA: Jory Cassel may be no knight, but he definitely is a ninja :)

[zaki]

But come on, not a single physical similarity to Rhaegar, from House Targaryen, which was the most powerful house for 280 years in Westeros, from blood of the Valyria, and people that tamed the dragons. And he has brown hair and grey eyes, like a Stark, from the North.. I simply dont see how any of these reasons are plausible, to make him really Rhaegars son.

I don't want to come as an fanatic to some stupid overly simple theory or rude, but on the least, I think we percieve Westeros genetics a little differently..

[Mladen]

I always thought that some bloodlines are magical and others aren't. What do we know about Northmen? They claim to be descended from the First Men, but how 'diluted' is their blood, truly?

I doubt that GRRM's point is that some bloodlines are magical... I am not buying it, especially given how he treats nobility...

Mladen, its not resurrection we were discussing. We had a pretty entertaining and enlightening discussion on the topic in its own thread. Posting if you want to take a look rather than repeat. http://asoiaf.wester...rpose-spoilers/

Also have to say, I'm still really bothered by the fact that the Dornish were fine with Rhaegars actions.

We are missing something here IMO. Dorne had to be in cahoots with whatever rhaegar did and with whatever happened at TOJ.

Thanks for the link. I'll see it... As for Dornish, I always thought there is more to Elia than meets the eye. I actually think we might discover that Rhaegar didn't do any of this without Elia, especially given Ashara's closeness and involvement. She was, after all, one of Elia's closest companions.

A doubt. Is it said that Ashara was in Starfall when Ned took the sword there?

I agree that some details make us think in some kind of bond between Starfall and Winterfell. I hope we'll know more about it in the next book.

It is said Ashara was in Starfall when Ned came to give her Arthur's sword.

Minor point, but I don't believe Dany was burned by the fire pit incident. I believe the "burns" he refers to are abrasions from the fall she took, not from the actual fire. I still believe that Dany specifically is invulnerable to fire, even if her Targaryen blood in and of itself does not fully explain it.

This might be more evidence of Dany = AA? Not sure.

Targaryens are not fire proof. GRRM explained that pyre in AGOT was one-time magical event, and nothing since then, including burns in several occasions suggests that Dany is fire proof. There is some heat resistance - proof are hot tubs, but that's that. we mix TV show with books.

As for the connection the Targs have with their dragons, there's a possibility that the dragonbinding horn kind of imitates the warg/skinchanger bond. Dany has a good connection with Drogon so she can ride him, but without magic binding him to her, can we for sure know that he won't go up against her if he's not in the mood to listen to her? How long is that whip going to work on him? Viserion and Rhaegal might estrange more and more from her, because the children are getting bigger and mommy locks them up now.

I agree with this. I sincerely doubt Dany will be able to take care of dragons without some magic or at least some knowledge about dragons. That;s why we have so many people coming to her that can help her with that - Victarion, Tyrion, Marwyn, Moqorro... Simply, Targaryens are not wargs.

Jon is not son of Rhaegar. It seems everybody forgets one simple and strong magic that is present from the start of the series. The seed is strong.

His half-sister, Rhaenys, looks like Elia. And should we mention that out of Ned's 5 children, only one is like him. Following that logic, that seed isn't that strong.

snip

I doubt Elia had an affair, we would have heard of it, because in Red Keep someone always finds out. Also, as we heard from Barristan, they had pretty much respectful marriage. It is one of the main reasons why I always doubt that Rhaegar did what he did sin the way presented as official story.

I am also not sure whether Rhaegar wanted to set aside Elia. He did saw Aegon as future King and PTWP, after all

But come on, not a single physical similarity to Rhaegar, from House Targaryen, which was the most powerful house for 280 years in Westeros, from blood of the Valyria, and people that tamed the dragons. And he has brown hair and grey eyes, like a Stark, from the North.. I simply dont see how any of these reasons are plausible, to make him really Rhaegars son.

I don't want to come as an fanatic to some stupid overly simple theory or rude, but on the least, I think we percieve Westeros genetics a little differently..

And can you explain me Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon who all are like their mather? Or Rhaenys? Simply, genetics doesn't work the way Arryn made it work. The seed is strong, in reality, both ours and ASOIAF, means nothing.

[Ygrain]

Let me make an extrabrief version:

Rhaegar supposedly kidnaps a girl he had hots for and she goes missing for about a year while the Rebellion rages. Jon is born at its very end, within about a month since the Sack of King's Landing (per word of GRRM). Shortly afterwards, Lyanna dies in "bed of blood", which is a Westerosi phrase for birthing bed. Some time afterwards, her brother, ever since haunted by her death and some promises which she extracted just before she died, comes back with a bastard and refuses to tell anyone the name of the boy's mother.

So, if Lyanna is the mother, the number of candidates for Jon's father shrinks to 3: two guys sworn to celibacy, and one guy who had hots for Lyanna...

[zaki]

And what if Lyanna is not the mother..

[King of Winters]

And what if Lyanna is not the mother..

Then all the hints about her and Rhaegar together, creating Jon, are all but nothing.

[Mladen]

And what if Lyanna is not the mother..

And why then would Ned raise the boy?

[Ygrain]

And what if Lyanna is not the mother..

Then you have to explain what happened to her child, why Ned never mentions it, what promises he made to her and what price he paid to keep them, what lies had been haunting him for fourteen years (that at the time when Jon is fourteen), why is Jon's mother's name such a secret, what are those secrets too dangerous to share with the loved ones that Ned harbours, why he recalls Lyanna pleading in the context of murdered children and Robert turning away...

[Queen Val]

Not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but in regards to the Daynes being involved - Catelyn recalls that when she heard rumors about Ashara Dayne being the woman Ned had slept with (and therefore Jon's mother), and asked Ned about her, he got extremely angry, told her not to mention Ashara, and made sure the people who had been starting these rumors stopped talking about her. I always assumed it was just because he didn't want Cat, or anyone, looking into the truth of who Jon's mother is, but perhaps he was also specifically concerned about Cat looking into Ashara, and her connection with Ned? Perhaps he was concerned that if people started asking too many questions about Ashara, then the Daynes' involvement could come to light.

[corbon]

Even from a political perspective it seems insane for Dorne to be ok with the idea of a contender to Aegons crown. It's like a blackfyre situation all over again.

People keep saying this, but its simply not true.

The Blackfyre situation is different because its a double bastardy issue - a supposedly legit heir accused of being a bastard, while a definitely bastard brother is legitimised. Thats not at all analogous to legitmate half brothers.

The Dance of the Dragons is also not analogous. Thats a lot more about sexism than two different families (though probably the family thing contributed, especially as the original mother was well gone). You had a female heir, thoroughly confirmed, but a non-Targ LCotKG decideds that he'd rather have the younger male as King.

Its also a complete joke to consider it especially stressful to have half-brothers within the same line of succession as a problem when the Baratheons showed that pure brothers can have exactly the same problems.

But come on, not a single physical similarity to Rhaegar, from House Targaryen, which was the most powerful house for 280 years in Westeros, from blood of the Valyria, and people that tamed the dragons. And he has brown hair and grey eyes, like a Stark, from the North.. I simply dont see how any of these reasons are plausible, to make him really Rhaegars son.

Targaryen genes are mostly recessive, which is why they inbred.

And Jon does display Rhaegar's charcteristics, just not his colouring. He's tall and slim (as opposed to Ned's son Robb, who is shorter and more strongly built), moody and introverted, talented at just about everything. He's even shown possible examples of 'waking the Dragon' - the Targaryen temper, so unlike icy Ned Stark.

I don't want to come as an fanatic to some stupid overly simple theory or rude, but on the least, I think we percieve Westeros genetics a little differently..

Call it 'new' then. Simply put, you have things quite thoroughly wrong, demonstrably so. Its only Baratheon seed that is considered strong - as evidenced by every Baratheon that there is any evidence for (as far back in history as that book goes) having the same colouring, no matter the mother. Thats incredibly improbable considering that each of those mothers added to the Baratheon gene pool, yet their genes never show up again. Its a specific clue for Cersei's incestual betrayal of Robert, not a theme for the series overall.

The seed is strong is quite clearly not an overall theme. In every other family we have repeated example of the seed not being strong. Starks who mostly look like Tullys, Targaryens that look like Martells (despite the inbreeding) and even Lannisters, the apparently second strongest genes, bowing to Baratheons in colouring when paired.

[corbon]

Not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but in regards to the Daynes being involved - Catelyn recalls that when she heard rumors about Ashara Dayne being the woman Ned had slept with (and therefore Jon's mother), and asked Ned about her, he got extremely angry, told her not to mention Ashara, and made sure the people who had been starting these rumors stopped talking about her. I always assumed it was just because he didn't want Cat, or anyone, looking into the truth of who Jon's mother is, but perhaps he was also specifically concerned about Cat looking into Ashara, and her connection with Ned? Perhaps he was concerned that if people started asking too many questions about Ashara, then the Daynes' involvement could come to light.

Yes, mentioned often. You were right the first time, but many people make the same mistake you are second guessing yourself with now. Read carefully its clear in the passage that Ned's focus is Jon, not Ashara.

[zaki]

Simply put, you have things quite thoroughly wrong,

We shall see..

[Queen Val]

Yes, mentioned often. You were right the first time, but many people make the same mistake you are second guessing yourself with now. Read carefully its clear in the passage that Ned's focus is Jon, not Ashara.

Well, I was saying that his focus was on both – that he didn’t want her asking after Jon’s mother, and that he didn’t want her discovering the Daynes’ involvement in helping him cover up that Lyanna is Jon’s mother. I didn't mean that it was one or the other.

[Ygrain]

We shall see..

And what exactly is your problem with what corbon put up above? Those are all text-based data.

[Stannis Lives]

Yes, mentioned often. You were right the first time, but many people make the same mistake you are second guessing yourself with now. Read carefully its clear in the passage that Ned's focus is Jon, not Ashara.

I think you are being too dismissive of this. Not necessarily neds reaction but the concept of the dornish and daynes being in cahoots with rhaegar and Elia in this whole thing. There is no way the dornish would be so dismissive of rhaegar running out on Elia with another woman. No way they would let them set up a love nest in dorne. No way the daynes would get involved (ashara and star fall, not Arthur). This seems to me like a carefully orchestrated plot unbeknownst to arys. In fact if arys didn't burn Rickard alive and kill Brandon, the war would never have happened and whatever dorne, rhaegar, Elia etc had up their sleeves would have played out.

[MtnLion]

I think you are being too dismissive of this. Not necessarily neds reaction but the concept of the dornish and daynes being in cahoots with rhaegar and Elia in this whole thing.¹ There is no way the dornish would be so dismissive of rhaegar running out on Elia with another woman.² No way they would let them set up a love nest in dorne.³ No way the daynes would get involved (ashara and star fall, not Arthur).⁴ This seems to me like a carefully orchestrated plot unbeknownst to arys.⁵ In fact if arys didn't burn Rickard alive and kill Brandon, the war would never have happened and whatever dorne, rhaegar, Elia etc had up their sleeves would have played out.⁶

1. Can you point to anything that indicates that the Daynes (other than Arthur) were in cahoots with Rhaegar? Then can you point to anything that transfers that to Dorne itself? This sure seems like may rather large leaps at interpretation, rather than something that is hinted at in the texts. On the contrary, I have found that there was some animosity towards Rhaegar for his treatment of Elia, but the specifics are not presented.

2. This assumes that the Dornish people knew about it. We know that Doran does not seem aware of it. There is actually no indication that anyone other than Arthur, Whent, and Hightower knew anything about it.

3. Presuming that any Dornishman knew, or presuming that the one Dornishman who knew relayed it to others. The statement seems presumptive and I can't think of any support in the narrative.

4. We know that Arthur was involved, but we have no serious implication of Ashara, or any other Dayne. Agreed that Ashara and Arthur may have shared some information, but we can't leap to the conclusion that they shared this information.

5. Rhaegar certainly had his reasons to hide his little plot from Aerys. This may have set his other plot, to replace Aerys on the throne, back in the timetable, that leads to other , much more significant, problems as Aerys continues to overreact. But, I can't subscribe to more than three or four people knowing about it, and it is an isolated location that Rhaegar chooses. It seems obvious that Rhaegar wants to hide his whereabouts from everyone, including Varys.

6. The war was because Aerys demanded the heads of Robert and Ned from Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn then raises his banners and war starts, not before. There was a sequence of events that led up to the demand, but none of them seems to have precipitated the treason of revolt.

[zaki]

And what exactly is your problem with what corbon put up above? Those are all text-based data.

My biggest problem with this whole theory is that Jon Targaryen sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me. I just can't process that he could be Targ. It's so ridiculous to me. I don't want to offend anyone here, I see that you put much effort into discussing this, but I just don't see it happening. For me, he's a Snow, son of a Stark, and not a Targ in any way possible..

[Nami]

My biggest problem with this whole theory is that Jon Targaryen sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me. I just can't process that he could be Targ. It's so ridiculous to me. I don't want to offend anyone here, I see that you put much effort into discussing this, but I just don't see it happening. For me, he's a Snow, son of a Stark, and not a Targ in any way possible..

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not gonna happen.

Regarding the looks, well, Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter, didn't look like a Targaryen, yet she was the daughter of one.

[Jory Cassel]

My biggest problem with this whole theory is that Jon Targaryen sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me. I just can't process that he could be Targ. It's so ridiculous to me. I don't want to offend anyone here, I see that you put much effort into discussing this, but I just don't see it happening. For me, he's a Snow, son of a Stark, and not a Targ in any way possible..

Well, at least you admit being in deep denial and neglecting loads of evidence and hints and inconsistencies because of personal preferences and wihes.

And fyi, we don't even know if "Jon" was actually his birthname, or rather one given to him by Ned to cover up his parentage.

eta: :ninja: by nami