R+L=J v. 56

[Greymoon]

I just noticed on re-read that Jon`s eyes are darker than Stark grey

Yes, I do believe his eyes are almost black.

[WhiteOwl18]

I read a theory the other day about Ashara being Meera and Jojen's mother. I was fully expecting to roll my eyes but it actually makes a lot of sense and is extremely well argued. Here's the link if anyone is interested:

http://asoiaf.wester...ne-meera-jojen/

I'm not sure about the part with Arthur Dayne being alive, but it doesn't make or break the H+A=M&J either way though.

So it's possible that she is alive and has been hiding out in the Neck and because she knows what happened at the ToJ and if she's discovered, questions about Jon's parentage could end up coming out and that's what Ned wanted to avoid.

I've read that theory a while ago and it actually makes sense! I agree that the part about Arthur is a bit of a stretch, but the theory still holds pretty well without that. I wouldn't mind at all if GRRM went with this!

[FrozenFire3]

I just noticed on re-read that Jon`s eyes are darker than Stark grey

Absolutely :)

Since some people have read a lot about this but then tend to forget 'details', I'll re-requote some age-old posts of mine. Repetita iuvant... hopefully :rolleyes:

The Sworn Sword (Dunk and Egg 2), here is how Aegon/Egg's eyes are described:

In the dimness of the lamplit cellar they looked black, but in better light their true colour could be seen: deep and dark and purple

This is Rhaegar's eyes description (Daenerys' HotU visions):

His eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac

Lyanna is supposed to have grey eyes, a trait of the Starks (see comparison with Arya's).

Jon's eyes description (GoT, Bran's pov):

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed black.

A nice mix of ice and fire, isn't it?

As for physical build, the following passage sets clearly apart Jon from Robb (a pure Stark, according to a certain male-centric interpretation that dismisses matrilineal ancestry and ignores that Jon, as son of R+L, possesses the same percentage of Stark blood as Robb):

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half-brother was strong and fast.

Is there a single passage in the saga where the words graceful and Ned are combined in the same line? No? Shocking.

As for psychological parallels with Rhaegar, the list is long.

She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.

Maester Luwin taught you well, Jon Snow. Your mind is as deft as your blade, it would seem.

Quite in contrast with Littlefinger's assessment of the Stark wits:

"Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?" Littlefinger asked.

Jon is a skilled warrior. Rhaegar was no less:

"I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." [...] He did it well for he did everything well.

Jon is smart and stubborn. Rhaegar:

Able, above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded.

Jon knows about tactics and politics and also how to form plans and execute them. Rhaegar:

King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together.

Jon, like Rhaegar, was born in grief and melancholic at times. A brooding sadness seems to be the family trait.

He is inclined to follow his heart even at the cost of breaking oaths (Ygritte docet).

He struggles to give up mercy and compassion to follow duty. See the parallels between Rhaegar's presumed behaviour towards the KotLT (Lyanna?) and Jon's towards Ygritte. It is interesting to note that Jon first questions his adherence to Ned's mold when faced with the duty vs compassion choice in the instance of Ygritte's 'execution':

He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

Subtly ironic and foreshadowing passage indeed.

Last but not least, Jon's berserk moments (dragon waking?) with Iron Emmett and Alliser Thorne. While raging he totally forgets himself. An impressive out of body experience and not in a warging sense lol Not very Stark-like imo, who tend to polarize between icy anger (Ned) and self-centered hot bloodied outrage (Brandon). Never such an 'alien' nut-trip though.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Ned isn't Targaryen, and there aren't special circumstances like prophecy in Rhaegar's case.

But Eddard is a Stark, just like Lyanna. And there are other examples of non-Targaryens participating in plural marriages. Anyway, that's not the main point I was making -- it does not really matter whether Eddard and Ashara were just lovers, were betrothed, or married. The important fact is that the first two articles in the "reference guide" assume that Ashara is dead. If that assumption is false, which it probably is, we have an answer to all of the evidence that is offered in support of R+L=J but it points to a different child. And the reference guide to this thread just assumes this away.

Riverrun has Godswood, therefore I imagine the wedding occured there, or in both places. And Ned isn't type of man that would count on techincality.

It does not matter to this theory, but Catelyn says she and Eddard were married in a sept. No mention of a godswood.

I doubt that. It is clearly indicated that Ashara's preganancy started somewhere during Harrenhall tourney. It simply doesn't fit.

No, it says she was dishonored at Harrenhall. It does not say when this happened. It also does not say she got pregnant the first time she was dishonored rather than on some subsequent occasion.

No, because even if Jon is older than Robb, what difference does it make. The boy remains a bastard, and there is no need for lying. The lying part only works if Ned was married to Ashara, and from all we know, logically we can assume he wasn't.

The lying part only matters if, one day, people might say that Eddard and Ashara were married, whether they were or they were not.

Is there any other reason Eddard would want people to believe that Jon was younger than Robb?

[Mladen]

But Eddard is a Stark, just like Lyanna. And there are other examples of non-Targaryens participating in plural marriages. Anyway, that's not the main point I was making -- it does not really matter whether Eddard and Ashara were just lovers, were betrothed, or married. The important fact is that the first two articles in the "reference guide" assume that Ashara is dead. If that assumption is false, which it probably is, we have an answer to all of the evidence that is offered in support of R+L=J but it points to a different child. And the reference guide to this thread just assumes this away.

What people? Name me couple of them, for I seem to be forgetting them. Also, you forget one small fact. Lyanna wouldn't be bigamist in the scenario of Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna triangle, Rhaegar would be. Lyanna, just like generations before her, would be married to only one man. So, would Ned. There is no proof of Stark having more than one wife.

No, it says she was dishonored at Harrenhall. It does not say when this happened. It also does not say she got pregnant the first time she was dishonored rather than on some subsequent occasion.

Actually, just before that Barristan was thinking about Harrenhall tourney. Therefore, it's logical conclusion that Ashara's dishonor happened during the Tourney. Yes, it is just location, but given that we have no proof of Ashara being at Harrenhall after tourney, we can say with certainty that she got pregnant during Harrenhall tournament.

The lying part only matters if, one day, people might say that Eddard and Ashara were married, whether they were or they were not.

People can't say that. No public wedding ever occured, and if it was secret wedding, who would know? In both cases, it doesn't matter

Is there any other reason Eddard would want people to believe that Jon was younger than Robb?

So the story would be more believable. He is saying that somewhere during war he impregnated Wylla. Since, his marriage happened somewhen at the beginning of Rebellion, this story of a man being on battlefield and breaking his vows is relatively believable, but also a bit shameful, so nobody would meddle in that. (parallel with what Varys said to Jon Connington)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

But Eddard is a Stark, just like Lyanna. And there are other examples of non-Targaryens participating in plural marriages.

Echoing Mladen- please provide examples of these non-Targs and their plural marriages

Anyway, that's not the main point I was making -- it does not really matter whether Eddard and Ashara were just lovers, were betrothed, or married. The important fact is that the first two articles in the "reference guide" assume that Ashara is dead. If that assumption is false, which it probably is, we have an answer to all of the evidence that is offered in support of R+L=J but it points to a different child. And the reference guide to this thread just assumes this away.

You are making way too much of this. Yes, there's a good chance Ashara is alive. But a living Ashara providing an alternate explanation for all the evidence of R+L=J? That's just ignoring the years of research and analysis so eloquently elaborated on by Frozen Fire in her posts above.

No, it says she was dishonored at Harrenhall. It does not say when this happened. It also does not say she got pregnant the first time she was dishonored rather than on some subsequent occasion.

And how would Barristan, who was wounded fighting at the Trident and then in KL serving a new King, have the first foggiest clue about Ashara's baby in the scenario you present?

The lying part only matters if, one day, people might say that Eddard and Ashara were married, whether they were or they were not.

Is there any other reason Eddard would want people to believe that Jon was younger than Robb?

Seven save us, there will never be a day when people say Eddard and Ashara were married because it never happened. As far as we know they met twice. Suggesting anything further is pure fantasy not supported by the text in any way.

Now here are a couple of RL examples to help untangle the "logic" -- I saw a guy the other night that I met at a concert a few years ago. We spoke for a time and said goodbye. Should I be worried that people might start thinking we're married and have a secret baby because I had a child some time after the occasion of our first meeting? Also, my husband has a nephew who looks just like him. Should I be suspicious of this? Does it mean he must be the father? Thankfully the nephew is younger than our legitimate son or I might be tempted to kill him ;)

[Stannis Lives]

I think you are being too dismissive of this. Not necessarily neds reaction but the concept of the dornish and daynes being in cahoots with rhaegar and Elia in this whole thing. There is no way the dornish would be so dismissive of rhaegar running out on Elia with another woman. No way they would let them set up a love nest in dorne. No way the daynes would get involved (ashara and star fall, not Arthur). This seems to me like a carefully orchestrated plot unbeknownst to arys. In fact if arys didn't burn Rickard alive and kill Brandon, the war would never have happened and whatever dorne, rhaegar, Elia etc had up their sleeves would have played out.

Thanks for the link. I'll see it... As for Dornish, I always thought there is more to Elia than meets the eye. I actually think we might discover that Rhaegar didn't do any of this without Elia, especially given Ashara's closeness and involvement. She was, after all, one of Elia's closest companions.

Again, the more I read during my re-read and the more evidence I see from posters like FrozenFire3 above, the more I have become convinced that Rhaegar, Elia, Dorne, Starfall, maybe Lyanna, were all in cahoots to overthrow Aerys, and bring about the prophecy of tPtwP and the Song of Ice and Fire. Rhaegar believed that the dragon has three heads. He had two children with Elia but couldn't have a third. He was plotting to overthrow Aerys. The Dornish never held Rhaegar responsible for what happened to Elia and her children. The ToJ lovenest was in Dorne. Ashara Dayne's wetnurse was with them. Arthur Dayne was his best friend and present at ToJ. IMO this will turn out to be a complex conspiracy where they all helped Rhaegar attempt to fulfill the prophecy, while overthrowing Aerys, later reigning over the kingdom with his two wives while preparing for the Battle for the Dawn. It bothers me to no end that the Dornish have so much hatred for Tywin and the Barratheons while still holding complete loyalty to the Targs even after Aerys' reign as a tyrant and Rhaegar seemingly setting Elia aside for Lyanna stark eventually leading to the war that tore the kingdom in half and the death of Elia. Even years later, the dornish are still conspiring with the Targs.

[corbon]

It bothers me to no end that the Dornish have so much hatred for Tywin and the Barratheons while still holding complete loyalty to the Targs even after Aerys' reign as a tyrant and Rhaegar seemingly setting Elia aside for Lyanna stark eventually leading to the war that tore the kingdom in half and the death of Elia. Even years later, the dornish are still conspiring with the Targs.

When things 'bother you no end' because they don't seem to make sense, it might be time to re-examine some preconceptions.

Like Dorne having any idea about ToJ for example.

Like the fact that there is no indication that Rhaegar ever did, or intended to, set Elia aside.

[sabrecmc]

You know, I've never really thought of the Dornish Targ-love (hmm, that sounds odd, lol) as being as odd as it really is, given the circumstances or supposed circumstances of Rhaegar and Elia. Interesting.

As for Ashara being Jon's mom, honestly, if it were just the TOJ stuff, I might be more open-minded about it, but there are so many other hints of Jon being King, which only works for Rhaegar being his Dad...I guess you could argue Rhaegar and Ashara, but that makes no sense why Ned would risk his family to hide the child. Yeah, I'm trying to be open to something new, some new way of looking at the information, but I just don't really see it when you factor in everything from the books.

[Stannis Lives]

When things 'bother you no end' because they don't seem to make sense, it might be time to re-examine some preconceptions.

Like Dorne having any idea about ToJ for example.

Like the fact that there is no indication that Rhaegar ever did, or intended to, set Elia aside.

It might not mean anything to you that it bothers me to no end, however it means everything to me. The ToJ is IN DORNE. My point was that it was Rhaegar's decision to hide Lyanna IN DORNE of all places. Also, I dont' understand your last part. From the Dornish perspective, if they were not "in on it", it would appear as if Rhaegar ran away from Elia and their small children and shacked up with another woman in Elia's hometown, while a war was being fought. If that isn't insulting to the Dornish, I'm not sure what is.

[Ygrain]

It might not mean anything to you that it bothers me to no end, however it means everything to me. The ToJ is IN DORNE. My point was that it was Rhaegar's decision to hide Lyanna IN DORNE of all places. Also, I dont' understand your last part. From the Dornish perspective, if they were not "in on it", it would appear as if Rhaegar ran away from Elia and their small children and shacked up with another woman in Elia's hometown, while a war was being fought. If that isn't insulting to the Dornish, I'm not sure what is.

It's on the borders in a mountain pass which doesn't seem particularly used. I don't know the corresponding English idiom but we say that it's darkest under the candlestick.

[finger]

Not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but in regards to the Daynes being involved - Catelyn recalls that when she heard rumors about Ashara Dayne being the woman Ned had slept with (and therefore Jon's mother), and asked Ned about her, he got extremely angry, told her not to mention Ashara, and made sure the people who had been starting these rumors stopped talking about her. I always assumed it was just because he didn't want Cat, or anyone, looking into the truth of who Jon's mother is, but perhaps he was also specifically concerned about Cat looking into Ashara, and her connection with Ned? Perhaps he was concerned that if people started asking too many questions about Ashara, then the Daynes' involvement could come to light.

Not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but in regards to the Daynes being involved - Catelyn recalls that when she heard rumors about Ashara Dayne being the woman Ned had slept with (and therefore Jon's mother), and asked Ned about her, he got extremely angry, told her not to mention Ashara, and made sure the people who had been starting these rumors stopped talking about her. I always assumed it was just because he didn't want Cat, or anyone, looking into the truth of who Jon's mother is, but perhaps he was also specifically concerned about Cat looking into Ashara, and her connection with Ned? Perhaps he was concerned that if people started asking too many questions about Ashara, then the Daynes' involvement could come to light.

We are in the 56th thread; all but everything has been mention. Wellcome on board.

My view is that GRRM is giving us subtle hints about a relation between Daynes and Starks, starting with the very name of their castles: Winterfell vs Starfall.

There's the scene before ToJ. Ned seems to feel sad for killing Arthur Dayne. A queer feeling in someone who's freeing his siter.

Then he goes to Starfall to take his sword there. He doesn't seem affraid of a revenge. Instead, he receives their support with Jon.

Before this, it was Harrenhal, where Ashara danced with Brandon and Ned, and "look to the Starks", whatever it means.

And then, the Daynes name their heir Edric (?) or something, so that he's dubbed Ned.

I don't know if I'm leaving aside anything important. Anyway, I'd say Martin is trying us to think something.

[Stannis Lives]

It's on the borders in a mountain pass which doesn't seem particularly used. I don't know the corresponding English idiom but we say that it's darkest under the candlestick.

I understand your point. It is just more evidence of Rhaegars relationship with Dorne. From what we've seen of the Dornish and how calculating and cunning they are, it wouldn't surprise me if they were the ones to assist rhaegar in overthrowing aerys. Especially considering who is wife is, and if they are helping him, the rest plays out well.

[Alia of the knife]

Absolutely :)

Since some people have read a lot about this but then tend to forget 'details', I'll re-requote some age-old posts of mine. Repetita iuvant... hopefully :rolleyes:

The Sworn Sword (Dunk and Egg 2), here is how Aegon/Egg's eyes are described:

This is Rhaegar's eyes description (Daenerys' HotU visions):

Lyanna is supposed to have grey eyes, a trait of the Starks (see comparison with Arya's).

Jon's eyes description (GoT, Bran's pov):

A nice mix of ice and fire, isn't it?

As for physical build, the following passage sets clearly apart Jon from Robb (a pure Stark, according to a certain male-centric interpretation that dismisses matrilineal ancestry and ignores that Jon, as son of R+L, possesses the same percentage of Stark blood as Robb):

Is there a single passage in the saga where the words graceful and Ned are combined in the same line? No? Shocking.

As for psychological parallels with Rhaegar, the list is long.

Quite in contrast with Littlefinger's assessment of the Stark wits:

Jon is a skilled warrior. Rhaegar was no less:

Jon is smart and stubborn. Rhaegar:

Jon knows about tactics and politics and also how to form plans and execute them. Rhaegar:

Jon, like Rhaegar, was born in grief and melancholic at times. A brooding sadness seems to be the family trait.

He is inclined to follow his heart even at the cost of breaking oaths (Ygritte docet).

He struggles to give up mercy and compassion to follow duty. See the parallels between Rhaegar's presumed behaviour towards the KotLT (Lyanna?) and Jon's towards Ygritte. It is interesting to note that Jon first questions his adherence to Ned's mold when faced with the duty vs compassion choice in the instance of Ygritte's 'execution':

Subtly ironic and foreshadowing passage indeed.

Last but not least, Jon's berserk moments (dragon waking?) with Iron Emmett and Alliser Thorne. While raging he totally forgets himself. An impressive out of body experience and not in a warging sense lol Not very Stark-like imo, who tend to polarize between icy anger (Ned) and self-centered hot bloodied outrage (Brandon). Never such an 'alien' nut-trip though.

And to follow up on stories-within-stories and parallels:

Ygrittes reaction to the war songs:

"There were tears on Ygrittes cheeks when the song ended."

"Why were you weeping?" Jon asked. "It was only a song. There are hundreds of giants, I've just seen them."

"Oh hundreds, " she said furiously. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. ......(aSoS, pg. 175 hardcover edition).

I get the feeling if she'd had a cup of wine, she would have dumped it on his head.

And then in the afterglow of Jon and Ygritte:

Jon: "Was this how it was with his father?, he wondered. "Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mothers bed?" (aSoS, pg. 297, hardcover edition).

He's thinking of Ned, but in light of Rhaegars honor, could it also not be a "back shadowing" of Rhaegars conflicts in loving and marrying Lyanna in the context of oath breaking to Elia?

[Jon Icefyre]

Young Griff's hair is never described as "silver." It is only ever described as blue because even when he goes to meet the Golden Company he is still coloring it.

Much like Septa Lemore's eye color, the reader is left to wonder what color Young Griff's hair is when he washes it out.

No the reader's not if you know how to read in between the lines, YG had his blue dye washed out by the time we last hear from him in the last JC POV in ADWD, when JC makes the quote that compares YG to Rhaegar:

"Your father' s lands are beautiful," he said. His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy.

So if he took the time to point out the difference in YG's eyes compared to Rhaegar don't you think he would've done the same in describing YG's hair? The fact that he doesn't means YG's hair most likely resembles Rhaegar's silver hair. Either way I realize this has now become irrelevant and I'm wrong on the matter because, I've remembered that Darkstar is described at one point as having 'silver' hair, or at least I'm pretty sure he is so never mind Ashara/Brandon or Ned is still on the table(though I still don't believe it).

[Alia of the knife]

I read a theory the other day about Ashara being Meera and Jojen's mother. I was fully expecting to roll my eyes but it actually makes a lot of sense and is extremely well argued. Here's the link if anyone is interested:

http://asoiaf.wester...ne-meera-jojen/

I'm not sure about the part with Arthur Dayne being alive, but it doesn't make or break the H+A=M&J either way though.

So it's possible that she is alive and has been hiding out in the Neck and because she knows what happened at the ToJ and if she's discovered, questions about Jon's parentage could end up coming out and that's what Ned wanted to avoid.

Now THAT would be unexpected. :)

[Ruby Chevrolet]

As for Ashara being Jon's mom, honestly, if it were just the TOJ stuff, I might be more open-minded about it, but there are so many other hints of Jon being King, which only works for Rhaegar being his Dad...I guess you could argue Rhaegar and Ashara, but that makes no sense why Ned would risk his family to hide the child. Yeah, I'm trying to be open to something new, some new way of looking at the information, but I just don't really see it when you factor in everything from the books.

I meant the Tower of Joy stuff and the reason Eddard won't say who Jon's mother is is all explained by the theory that Ashara is still alive.

The hints that Jon may be a king -- which are way overblown on these boards, by the way (the supposed "king hiding under snow" is actually a quote about smallfolk hiding from kings unders snow, for example) can all be explained by the fact that Robb's will names Jon heir to the King in the North/King of Winter. It doesn't have to be about the Iron Throne.

[The guy from the Vale]

I meant the Tower of Joy stuff and the reason Eddard won't say who Jon's mother is is all explained by the theory that Ashara is still alive.

The hints that Jon may be a king -- which are way overblown on these boards, by the way (the supposed "king hiding under snow" is actually a quote about smallfolk hiding from kings unders snow, for example) can all be explained by the fact that Robb's will names Jon heir to the King in the North/King of Winter. It doesn't have to be about the Iron Throne.

You think Bloodraven cares about the KitN more than about theTarg heir to the Iron Throne? Color me unconvinced.

[Ygrain]

I understand your point. It is just more evidence of Rhaegars relationship with Dorne. From what we've seen of the Dornish and how calculating and cunning they are, it wouldn't surprise me if they were the ones to assist rhaegar in overthrowing aerys. Especially considering who is wife is, and if they are helping him, the rest plays out well.

Aye - who would have expected Dorne to support Rhaegar if they act publically pissed for the offence to Elia. It would be absolutely awesome if he actually had a secret pact with Rickard, as well, and staged the "abduction" as an excuse for the Starks to back out from the Baratheon betrothal as well as coining an alliance with the Starks without raising Aerys' suspicion. Such an awesome scheme :D

- Yeah, sure, it's not like no intelligent, deliberate, single-minded, dutiful person ever succumbed to the drive of hormones, but still: those characteristics of Rhaegar constantly make me think that there might be more than meets the eye.

[Alia of the knife]

No the reader's not if you know how to read in between the lines, YG had his blue dye washed out by the time we last hear from him in the last JC POV in ADWD, when JC makes the quote that compares YG to Rhaegar:

"Your father' s lands are beautiful," he said. His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy.

So if he took the time to point out the difference in YG's eyes compared to Rhaegar don't you think he would've done the same in describing YG's hair? Either way I realize this has now become irrelevant and I'm wrong on the matter because, I've remembered that Darkstar is described at one point as having 'silver' hair, or at least I'm pretty sure he is so never mind Ashara/Brandon or Ned is still on the table(though I still don't believe it).

Yes, DS hairs is described as a "silver glacier" that fell to his collar,

But, you know I tend to think Lemore is Ilyrios wife IMO.

As far as the Daynes coloring, perhaps in their ancestry they married someone from Valarya by way of the free cities, or married someone from Aurane Waters House.

When Stannis's father initially went to look for a wife for Rhaegar, Aerys didn't look to Dorne, but elsewhere. Was Aerys looking for a Blackfyre female, or a female descendent of Aerion Brightflame thinking they would be closer to the "blood of the dragon?"