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R+L=J v. 56


Stubby

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Aye - who would have expected Dorne to support Rhaegar if they act publically pissed for the offence to Elia. It would be absolutely awesome if he actually had a secret pact with Rickard, as well, and staged the "abduction" as an excuse for the Starks to back out from the Baratheon betrothal as well as coining an alliance with the Starks without raising Aerys' suspicion. Such an awesome scheme :D

- Yeah, sure, it's not like no intelligent, deliberate, single-minded, dutiful person ever succumbed to the drive of hormones, but still: those characteristics of Rhaegar constantly make me think that there might be more than meets the eye.

That gets back to our Rickard and Rhaegar - Partners in Coup crackpot that originated in the mid-40es RLJ threads ;)

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What people? Name me couple of them, for I seem to be forgetting them. Also, you forget one small fact. Lyanna wouldn't be bigamist in the scenario of Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna triangle, Rhaegar would be. Lyanna, just like generations before her, would be married to only one man. So, would Ned. There is no proof of Stark having more than one wife.

Ygon Oldfather (follower of the Old Gods, like Eddard; had 18 wives); Euron Greyjoy (multiple saltwives), Craster (incest and polygamy), several wives of Maegor the Cruel. Possibly Sallador Sahn ("When I die impoverished, my wives will curse you").

I don't see any difference between a person with multiple wives and a person who would knowingly agree to be one of those multiple wives. It would be different if the man was a secret bigamist but that is not the case for Lyanna.

Actually, just before that Barristan was thinking about Harrenhall tourney. Therefore, it's logical conclusion that Ashara's dishonor happened during the Tourney. Yes, it is just location, but given that we have no proof of Ashara being at Harrenhall after tourney, we can say with certainty that she got pregnant during Harrenhall tournament.

This was the subject of a long debate in an earlier R+L=J thread. I don't think the dishonor necessarily happened during the tournament and if it did I don't think it was the only time she could have gotten pregnant. But it is enough to agree to disagree on this

People can't say that. No public wedding ever occured, and if it was secret wedding, who would know? In both cases, it doesn't matter.

It matters if Jon finds out.

So the story would be more believable. He is saying that somewhere during war he impregnated Wylla. Since, his marriage happened somewhen at the beginning of Rebellion, this story of a man being on battlefield and breaking his vows is relatively believable, but also a bit shameful, so nobody would meddle in that. (parallel with what Varys said to Jon Connington)

I thought the Eddard/Catelyn marriage happened after the Battle of the Bells, which was Connington vs. Hoster, Eddard, Jon Arryn and Robert, some time late in the war/right before the battle at the Trident. Am I wrong about that?

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You think Bloodraven cares about the KitN more than about theTarg heir to the Iron Throne? Color me unconvinced.

While I do feel some of the so-called "foreshadowing" mentioned on some of the threads here is reaching a bit, some of it is pretty on the nose. Taken together, it is pretty convincing. I suppose some of it could reference KitN, but some of it seems directly tied to the IT. Besides, there is only one KitN and his name is Stark (so not Jon, heh), or so I've been told! That is still one of my favorite parts of the series, lol. You go, girl.

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Ygon Oldfather (follower of the Old Gods, like Eddard; had 18 wives); Euron Greyjoy (multiple saltwives), Craster (incest and polygamy), several wives of Maegor the Cruel. Possibly Sallador Sahn ("When I die impoverished, my wives will curse you").

I don't see any difference between a person with multiple wives and a person who would knowingly agree to be one of those multiple wives. It would be different if the man was a secret bigamist but that is not the case for Lyanna.

This was the subject of a long debate in an earlier R+L=J thread. I don't think the dishonor necessarily happened during the tournament and if it did I don't think it was the only time she could have gotten pregnant. But it is enough to agree to disagree on this

It matters if Jon finds out.

I thought the Eddard/Catelyn marriage happened after the Battle of the Bells, which was Connington vs. Hoster, Eddard, Jon Arryn and Robert, some time late in the war/right before the battle at the Trident. Am I wrong about that?

None of your examples are mainland Westerosi though. Ironborn and Wildling culture are very different to the rest. Salla isn't even Westerosi at all.

As for the Ned/Cat marriage, that happened definitely before the BotB. Hoster Tully only joined the rebellion once his daughters were wed to the leaders of said rebellion.

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While I do feel some of the so-called "foreshadowing" mentioned on some of the threads here is reaching a bit, some of it is pretty on the nose. Taken together, it is pretty convincing. I suppose some of it could reference KitN, but some of it seems directly tied to the IT. Besides, there is only one KitN and his name is Stark (so not Jon, heh), or so I've been told! That is still one of my favorite parts of the series, lol. You go, girl.

the guy from the Vale.

But never mind :D

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While I do feel some of the so-called "foreshadowing" mentioned on some of the threads here is reaching a bit, some of it is pretty on the nose. Taken together, it is pretty convincing. I suppose some of it could reference KitN, but some of it seems directly tied to the IT. Besides, there is only one KitN and his name is Stark (so not Jon, heh), or so I've been told! That is still one of my favorite parts of the series, lol. You go, girl.

This could still refer to Jon's legitimization via Robb's will, though;)

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And how would Barristan, who was wounded fighting at the Trident and then in KL serving a new King, have the first foggiest clue about Ashara's baby in the scenario you present?

Barristan was in King's Landing during the Rebellion. Let's say that Ashara got pregnant early in the war and then passed through King's Landing on the way back to Dorne. Barristan probably would have noticed.

Seven save us, there will never be a day when people say Eddard and Ashara were married because it never happened. As far as we know they met twice. Suggesting anything further is pure fantasy not supported by the text in any way.

Now here are a couple of RL examples to help untangle the "logic" -- I saw a guy the other night that I met at a concert a few years ago. We spoke for a time and said goodbye. Should I be worried that people might start thinking we're married and have a secret baby because I had a child some time after the occasion of our first meeting? Also, my husband has a nephew who looks just like him. Should I be suspicious of this? Does it mean he must be the father? Thankfully the nephew is younger than our legitimate son or I might be tempted to kill him ;)

There's a bit more to it than that.

"Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." ... "There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whipered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

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Aye - who would have expected Dorne to support Rhaegar if they act publically pissed for the offence to Elia. It would be absolutely awesome if he actually had a secret pact with Rickard, as well, and staged the "abduction" as an excuse for the Starks to back out from the Baratheon betrothal as well as coining an alliance with the Starks without raising Aerys' suspicion. Such an awesome scheme :D

- Yeah, sure, it's not like no intelligent, deliberate, single-minded, dutiful person ever succumbed to the drive of hormones, but still: those characteristics of Rhaegar constantly make me think that there might be more than meets the eye.

:agree:
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Lol, that makes sense. And in that case I fully agree - I can see that letter in front of me, written by a ten-year-old, with little hearts instead of i-dots... the thought is just hilarious :D

Just confused because my post was quoted. :D

Sorry, theguyfromthevale! Yes, I meant Lyanna Mormont, Awesome She-Bear of the North. And yes, in my head, that letter totally has a Grumpy Cat meme on it with Stannis' picture and a giant "NO!"

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I read a theory the other day about Ashara being Meera and Jojen's mother. I was fully expecting to roll my eyes but it actually makes a lot of sense and is extremely well argued. Here's the link if anyone is interested:

http://asoiaf.wester...ne-meera-jojen/

I'm not sure about the part with Arthur Dayne being alive, but it doesn't make or break the H+A=M&J either way though.

So it's possible that she is alive and has been hiding out in the Neck and because she knows what happened at the ToJ and if she's discovered, questions about Jon's parentage could end up coming out and that's what Ned wanted to avoid.

I've just read that theory too, and it seems plausible... it put the whole Lyanna thing into perspective for me, anyway. Maybe it's complete crackpot but has it ever been discussed on this thread or another that Lyanna = Wylla?

As in Lyanna did not die either, but didn't want to/couldn't face the shame of having started the rebellion, or simply didn't want to go back being a lady...or didn't want to put Jon in danger. Because if Lyanna lives, obviously, people would have wondered about her son. So, Ned doesn't actually lie to Robert when he tells him that Jon's mother is Wylla. Lyanna is hiding at Starfall, under another identity. It's a parallel to Sansa, passing for Littlefinger's bastard. That would mean that the Daynes have quite a few secrets to hide : 1) Ashara being alive in the Neck and married to Howland Reed, 2) Lyanna being alive as well. It seems...a bit too many people in hiding. But it would explain Wylla, Ned's lies (plural) and promises, Edric Dayne being called 'Ned', and telling Arya that Jon's mother is a wet-nurse from Starfall.

Is that too convenient? I wish I had the first two books to read back on Ned's, Catelyn’s and Arya’s POV, but I don’t...Does Ned remember Lyanna dying? Or might he have held her hand while she was giving birth?

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Is that too convenient? I wish I had the first two books to read back on Ned's, Catelyn’s and Arya’s POV, but I don’t...Does Ned remember Lyanna dying? Or might he have held her hand while she was giving birth?

He was with her when Lyanna died, so unless you have an explanation in regard to why Ned would lie to himself in his own thoughts, sorry, this is not only crackpot territory, but complete nonsense.

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Lol, that makes sense. And in that case I fully agree - I can see that letter in front of me, written by a ten-year-old, with little hearts instead of i-dots... the thought is just hilarious :D

ROFL, luckily I wasn't drinking anything :D

Speaking of drinking and crackpots, I found one in my cups yesterday, so I might share now:

Lyanna and Rhaegar went questing via Starfall to the ruins of Valyria (or some other location) to find Lightbringer. The shitstorm in their absence was fanned by maesters who stowed Rhaegar's messages to Aerys and Rickard in order to destroy House Targaryen as the single persons left able to hatch the dragons (no, Summerhall was no accident, either). When they returned to Starfall, the Rebellion was long under way, and as they slowly and secretly travelled north with pregnant Lyanna, they encountered Hightower on his route to Starfall to look for Rhaegar. They held counsel and decided not to drag Lyanna any further and made ToJ a temporary hideout before Rhaegar deals with the Rebellion...

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Barristan was in King's Landing during the Rebellion. Let's say that Ashara got pregnant early in the war and then passed through King's Landing on the way back to Dorne. Barristan probably would have noticed.

He wasn't in KL for most of the war. He was chasing rebels around the Riverlands and the Reach, per Jaime in ASoS.

There's a bit more to it than that.

meh. If I engaged in some whispering and kissing (maybe more! but don't tell my husband ;)) with said guy it doesn't follow that we're secretly married with a love child.

The app entry for Eddard says the betrothal was before the Battle of the Bells and the marriage was after.

On this one I have to go with marriage after, in spite of the fact that the timeline was long believed to be Tully marriages > Stoney Sept. Jon Arryn didn't need to pursue the Lysa Tully marriage until after his heir was killed at Stoney Sept. BUT, the app has been wrong on other matters and since it's never been spelled out explicitly we should probably take it with a grain of salt.

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Barristan was in King's Landing during the Rebellion. Let's say that Ashara got pregnant early in the war and then passed through King's Landing on the way back to Dorne. Barristan probably would have noticed.

By golly, he could have noticed in such a way, but how in seven hells would he know that it happened at Harrenhal?
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You think Bloodraven cares about the KitN more than about theTarg heir to the Iron Throne? Color me unconvinced.

From Catelyn Pov:

"These wolves are more than volwes, Robb. You must know that. I think perhaps the gods sent them to us. Your father's gods, the old gods of the north."

Who might be those "gods" who sent the wolves?

I'm not sure BR cares much about the IT.

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