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R+L=J v. 56


Stubby

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He was with her when Lyanna died, so unless you have an explanation in regard to why Ned would lie to himself in his own thoughts, sorry, this is not only crackpot territory, but complete nonsense.

Implicitly, I was/am asking after the exact wording of the scene. I know the theory is a stretch anyhow. If I had my books with me, I'd open them re-read the passages, and I would probably not have mentioned Lyanna = Wylla. But I don't have the books, and I've read the first one...Six years or something ago, so I'm not clear on how Ned remembers the scene. I can't trust the way I remember reading it either. I warned that, yes, it might be crackpot-

I take it, you've never read or seen a thread mentioning that possibility? if it was the case, I'd like to know at the very least and read the discussion.

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ROFL, luckily I wasn't drinking anything :D

Speaking of drinking and crackpots, I found one in my cups yesterday, so I might share now:

Lyanna and Rhaegar went questing via Starfall to the ruins of Valyria (or some other location) to find Lightbringer. The shitstorm in their absence was fanned by maesters who stowed Rhaegar's messages to Aerys and Rickard in order to destroy House Targaryen as the single persons left able to hatch the dragons (no, Summerhall was no accident, either). When they returned to Starfall, the Rebellion was long under way, and as they slowly and secretly travelled north with pregnant Lyanna, they encountered Hightower on his route to Starfall to look for Rhaegar. They held counsel and decided not to drag Lyanna any further and made ToJ a temporary hideout before Rhaegar deals with the Rebellion...

You shouldn't drink so heavily. :cheers:

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Implicitly, I was/am asking after the exact wording of the scene. I know the theory is a stretch anyhow. If I had my books with me, I'd open them re-read the passages, and I would probably not have mentioned Lyanna = Wylla. But I don't have the books, and I've read the first one...Six years or something ago, so I'm not clear on how Ned remembers the scene. I can't trust the way I remember reading it either. I warned that, yes, it might be crackpot-

I take it, you've never read or seen a thread mentioning that possibility? if it was the case, I'd like to know at the very least and read the discussion.

Here you go, then:

"The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his siter's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing." (first Eddard chapter, pages 43, 44)

Again, unless one supposes that Ned either lies to himself in his own thoughts, or Lyanna tricked him into thinking she was dead, this theory is crackpot, mildly put.

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Not sure if this has been brought up, but there was a part the Bran sees Ned through the heart tree saying ..."let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed". "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive." from DWD

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By golly, he could have noticed in such a way, but how in seven hells would he know that it happened at Harrenhal?

"Hi, Ser Barristan!"

"Hi, Lady Ashara. Where have you been?"

"Well, I haven't been nailed down at Starfall, I can tell you that. In fact, I have been hanging out with the Whents at Harrenhall ever since they had that tournament in the year of the false spring. I wasn't going to stay for so long but this rebellion started and I did not want to travel through the Riverlands during a time of war."

"Yet here you are, back in King's Landing, and there is still a rebellion going on."

"Yes. Young Lord Stark made Harrenhall his headquarters for a few months. This was before the Battle of the Bells. I looked to him for help getting home and he gave me safe passage."

"That's nice. He seems like an honorable chap. Say, are you pregnant?"

"Now, Ser Barristan, would a true knight ask such a thing?"

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Ygon Oldfather (follower of the Old Gods, like Eddard; had 18 wives); Euron Greyjoy (multiple saltwives), Craster (incest and polygamy), several wives of Maegor the Cruel. Possibly Sallador Sahn ("When I die impoverished, my wives will curse you").

You compare saltwives of Ironborn, pirate and Craster's incestuous relationships with Ned. You are way out of realm of possibility here...

This was the subject of a long debate in an earlier R+L=J thread. I don't think the dishonor necessarily happened during the tournament and if it did I don't think it was the only time she could have gotten pregnant. But it is enough to agree to disagree on this

We have no proof she was in Harrenhall after the tourney, so the only logical conclusion is that she gave got pregnant sometime during the tourney. I am just making conclusion on what we have in the books, nothing else.

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You compare saltwives of Ironborn, pirate and Craster's incestuous relationships with Ned. You are way out of realm of possibility here...

No, I compared Eddard to his sister and said both might be open to plural marriages. And I compared Eddard (honorable) to Rhaegar (also honorable). You asked for other examples and that is when I mentioned Maegor the Cruel's wives, saltwives, Ygon, etc. That gives you, from the 7 kingdoms, followers of the Old Gods (Lyanna, Eddard), followers of the Seven (Rhaegar, Maegor, Maegor's wives), followers of the Drowned God (the Ironborn). It also gives you followers of the Old Gods from beyond the Wall plus at least one example from Essos.

I am not saying this was common practice, but you can't rule it out for young Eddard. Remember, we are trying to figure out what lies he told that haunted him for 14 years, what promises he made, and what price he paid to keep them.

But let's back up. I don't think the marriage to Ashara is all that likely, and Jon can still be her son without it. I think it is more likely that there was a betrothal or some similar understanding between Eddard and Ashara before they conceived Jon. It started during the tournament at Harrenhal. I think Brandon was trying to broker a marriage alliance between House Stark and House Dayne as part of Lord Rickard's Southron ambitions. I think Eddard planned to follow through with it right through the beginning of the rebellion and the time he spent at Harrenhall with Ashara prior to the Battle of the Bells. He only broke it off when he was forced to marry Catelyn to secure the Tully alliance. At that point, he might not even have known Ashara was carrying his child.

We have no proof she was in Harrenhall after the tourney, so the only logical conclusion is that she gave got pregnant sometime during the tourney. I am just making conclusion on what we have in the books, nothing else.

We don't have any proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were ever at the Tower of Joy together. That is inferred from the fact that Rhaegar named the tower and that Lyanna died there.

But if you consider that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhall and combine that with the common belief that she was Jon's mother, it is just as easy to infer that Eddard and Ashara met up at Harrenhall at the right time for her to be Jon's mother.

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No, I compared Eddard to his sister and said both might be open to plural marriages. And I compared Eddard (honorable) to Rhaegar (also honorable). You asked for other examples and that is when I mentioned Maegor the Cruel's wives, saltwives, Ygon, etc. That gives you, from the 7 kingdoms, followers of the Old Gods (Lyanna, Eddard), followers of the Seven (Rhaegar, Maegor, Maegor's wives), followers of the Drowned God (the Ironborn). It also gives you followers of the Old Gods from beyond the Wall plus at least one example from Essos.

This is simply wrong comparison. From all we know about Ned, his code of honor and exceptional devotion to norms and rules, I honestly doubt he is type of man having two or three wives. Also, Lyanna perhaps as in plural marriage, but she wasn't the bigamist, Rhaegar was. Targaryen Prince, whose history told him he can do that. Lyanna and Ned never considered having more than one spouse, or at least nothing in the books indicate that. Also, comparison between Ned and Ironborn, pirate and Craster, is plainly wrong.

I am not saying this was common practice, but you can't rule it out for young Eddard. Remember, we are trying to figure out what lies he told that haunted him for 14 years, what promises he made, and what price he paid to keep them.

And you got the timeline wrong. At the time Ned says that, Jon is 15, so he had to be hauted by Ashara at least 17 years, if you argue that they fell in love at Harrenhall, and not 14.

But let's back up. I don't think the marriage to Ashara is all that likely, and Jon can still be her son without it. I think it is more likely that there was a betrothal or some similar understanding between Eddard and Ashara before they conceived Jon. It started during the tournament at Harrenhal. I think Brandon was trying to broker a marriage alliance between House Stark and House Dayne as part of Lord Rickard's Southron ambitions. I think Eddard planned to follow through with it right through the beginning of the rebellion and the time he spent at Harrenhall with Ashara prior to the Battle of the Bells. He only broke it off when he was forced to marry Catelyn to secure the Tully alliance. At that point, he might not even have known Ashara was carrying his child.

We have not one incling of textual evidence to support this claim, and therefore can be easily rejected as fanfiction

We don't have any proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were ever at the Tower of Joy together. That is inferred from the fact that Rhaegar named the tower and that Lyanna died there.

OH, you understand that author doesn't have to say everything. Some things are meant to be supposed by certain paragraphs, or lines. If the author says 'sun is shining', that means day, even if it isn't specifically said.

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No, I compared Eddard to his sister and said both might be open to plural marriages. And I compared Eddard (honorable) to Rhaegar (also honorable). You asked for other examples and that is when I mentioned Maegor the Cruel's wives, saltwives, Ygon, etc. That gives you, from the 7 kingdoms, followers of the Old Gods (Lyanna, Eddard), followers of the Seven (Rhaegar, Maegor, Maegor's wives), followers of the Drowned God (the Ironborn). It also gives you followers of the Old Gods from beyond the Wall plus at least one example from Essos.

Apples and pears. While the old gods do not seem to have a taboo against polygamy (unlike incest), the cultural norms south of the Wall are strictly monogamous except the Targaryens who have their own rules. Thus, Lyanna marrying into the Targaryen family is an entirely different kettle of fish than Ned marrying a non-Targaryen(s).

We don't have any proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were ever at the Tower of Joy together. That is inferred from the fact that Rhaegar named the tower and that Lyanna died there.

It doesn't really matter if they were at the Tower of Joy together or not as long as they had sex at any place early into the Rebellion, and that is inferred from the fact that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and made off with her, which was definitely not for the sole purpose of singing her sad songs in moonlight.

But if you consider that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhall and combine that with the common belief that she was Jon's mother, it is just as easy to infer that Eddard and Ashara met up at Harrenhall at the right time for her to be Jon's mother.

Not at all. Per Harwin, the Winterfell staff believe that Ned might have had a thing for Ashara at the tourney, long before his marriage to Catelyn. They have no idea about any later encounters, and nothing in Harwin's account suggests that he believes Ashara to be Jon's mother. That is an inference Catelyn makes - she hears that Ned had a thing for Ashara, she knows that Ashara committed suicide after Ned's visit to Starfall, she knows he doesn't want to speak about it and that he apparently loved Jon's mother very much, so she tries to connect these dots without actually knowing when, where or if at all those two could have met at the right time. She virtually has no other "suspect" in her focus.

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This is simply wrong comparison. From all we know about Ned, his code of honor and exceptional devotion to norms and rules, I honestly doubt he is type of man having two or three wives. Also, Lyanna perhaps as in plural marriage, but she wasn't the bigamist, Rhaegar was. Targaryen Prince, whose history told him he can do that. Lyanna and Ned never considered having more than one spouse, or at least nothing in the books indicate that. Also, comparison between Ned and Ironborn, pirate and Craster, is plainly wrong.

I still don't see any difference between a man who takes two wives and a woman who agrees to marry a man who is already married to someone else. They are both participating in bigamy. If Lyanna would do it, why wouldn't Eddard think it was okay?

And you got the timeline wrong. At the time Ned says that, Jon is 15, so he had to be hauted by Ashara at least 17 years, if you argue that they fell in love at Harrenhall, and not 14.

No. The lying started when he broke his promise to Ashara by marrying Catelyn. He married Catelyn after the Battle of the Bells, so it was probably just a few weeks before the Battle of the Trident. Jon was born right around the time of the Battle of the Trident or a few weeks after that. In other words, the lying started right around the time Jon was born.

We have not one incling of textual evidence to support this claim, and therefore can be easily rejected as fanfiction

There is a lot of evidence to support this. Lady Dustin says that Lord Rickon had southron ambitions. We know those ambitions manifested themselves in the form of marriage alliances. His heir, Brandon, was promised to Catelyn Tully. His daughter, Lyanna, was promised to the Lord of Storm's End. It is logical that his younger son would be lined up with the daughter of another lord, but because he was a second son it's unlikely he would get a Lord Paramount's daughter. But Ashara is from a second-tier family that was descended from the First Men and they followed the Old Gods. Ashara would have been the perfect match for a younger son of Lord Rickard. The tournament at Harrenhall would be the perfect place to put the wheels in motion, and Brandon would be the perfect person to try to make the arrangements (if Lord Rickard was not there). So I think there's more to this theory than just fan fiction.

But again, this part isn't necessary to the theory that Ashara is Jon Snow's mother.

OH, you understand that author doesn't have to say everything. Some things are meant to be supposed by certain paragraphs, or lines. If the author says 'sun is shining', that means day, even if it isn't specifically said.

Yes! My point exactly :)

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No. The lying started when he broke his promise to Ashara by marrying Catelyn. He married Catelyn after the Battle of the Bells, so it was probably just a few weeks before the Battle of the Trident. Jon was born right around the time of the Battle of the Trident or a few weeks after that. In other words, the lying started right around the time Jon was born.

And he also fathered Robb on the wedding night. Yet, he was somehow able to convince everyone that Robb, who would have been more than half a year younger than Jon in your version, is actually older?

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I still don't see any difference between a man who takes two wives and a woman who agrees to marry a man who is already married to someone else. They are both participating in bigamy. If Lyanna would do it, why wouldn't Eddard think it was okay?

Have you read a single word about Eddard?

There is a lot of evidence to support this. Lady Dustin says that Lord Rickon had southron ambitions. We know those ambitions manifested themselves in the form of marriage alliances. His heir, Brandon, was promised to Catelyn Tully. His daughter, Lyanna, was promised to the Lord of Storm's End. It is logical that his younger son would be lined up with the daughter of another lord, but because he was a second son it's unlikely he would get a Lord Paramount's daughter. But Ashara is from a second-tier family that was descended from the First Men and they followed the Old Gods. Ashara would have been the perfect match for a younger son of Lord Rickard. The tournament at Harrenhall would be the perfect place to put the wheels in motion, and Brandon would be the perfect person to try to make the arrangements (if Lord Rickard was not there). So I think there's more to this theory than just fan fiction.

This is your evidence? Rickard's Southern ambition. It would be the same if I would tell that Rickard planned to marry Ned to Cersei? Following this fallible logic, no one could defy it. But, simply it isn't suggested by anything in the books

Yes! My point exactly :)

Actually, no. There is difference between inventing scenarios, what you did, and drawing conclusions based on text what most of us does.

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No. The lying started when he broke his promise to Ashara by marrying Catelyn. He married Catelyn after the Battle of the Bells, so it was probably just a few weeks before the Battle of the Trident. Jon was born right around the time of the Battle of the Trident or a few weeks after that. In other words, the lying started right around the time Jon was born.

And Robb was conceived on the wedding night, which in your version makes him more than half a year younger than Jon, yet Jon is somehow plausibly believed to be younger than Robb. Uh-oh.

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It doesn't really matter if they were at the Tower of Joy together or not as long as they had sex at any place early into the Rebellion, and that is inferred from the fact that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and made off with her, which was definitely not for the sole purpose of singing her sad songs in moonlight.

That's right. The books never say first hand that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. We get that third hand from Daenerys, Barristan and (maybe) Meera Reed. I am applying the same logic to Eddard and Ashara. We get that they were in love from Edric Dayne, Catelyn, Cersei and (maybe) Harwin.

Not at all. Per Harwin, the Winterfell staff believe that Ned might have had a thing for Ashara at the tourney, long before his marriage to Catelyn.

I'm being open-minded to the possibility that Eddard fell for Ashara during the tournament at Harrenhall and that he continued to have feelings for her after that. I'm also being open-minded to the possibility that Rhaegar fell for Lyanna during the tournament at Harrenhall and that he continued to have feelings for her after that.

They have no idea about any later encounters, and nothing in Harwin's account suggests that he believes Ashara to be Jon's mother. That is an inference Catelyn makes - she hears that Ned had a thing for Ashara, she knows that Ashara committed suicide after Ned's visit to Starfall, she knows he doesn't want to speak about it and that he apparently loved Jon's mother very much, so she tries to connect these dots without actually knowing when, where or if at all those two could have met at the right time. She virtually has no other "suspect" in her focus.

Not just Catelyn. Cersei figures it out, too.

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"Hi, Ser Barristan!"

"Hi, Lady Ashara. Where have you been?"

"Well, I haven't been nailed down at Starfall, I can tell you that. In fact, I have been hanging out with the Whents at Harrenhall ever since they had that tournament in the year of the false spring. I wasn't going to stay for so long but this rebellion started and I did not want to travel through the Riverlands during a time of war."

"Yet here you are, back in King's Landing, and there is still a rebellion going on."

"Yes. Young Lord Stark made Harrenhall his headquarters for a few months. This was before the Battle of the Bells. I looked to him for help getting home and he gave me safe passage."

"That's nice. He seems like an honorable chap. Say, are you pregnant?"

"Now, Ser Barristan, would a true knight ask such a thing?"

So, obviously you think that Barristan and Ashara were great friends. Not only that but you have created your own story line to support your views.

Here is my take:

After Harrenhal Ashara returned to Kign's Landing in the company of Elia. Then winter fell upon Westeros, for the tourney had been held in a false spring. During the next few months it became apparent that Ashara had become pregnant at the tourney, and she could not go home because not only was it snowing in King's Landing, but really impassable in the Prince's Pass. So, Elia covered for her, and kept her hidden from the court. She delivers a bouncing baby boy at the same time Elia delivers a stillborn girl.

Need I continue?

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And he also fathered Robb on the wedding night. Yet, he was somehow able to convince everyone that Robb, who would have been more than half a year younger than Jon in your version, is actually older?

Sure, it happens all the time in real life.

And it has to be what happened here, whoever Jon Snow's mother was, because Robb Stark was conceived around the same time as Jon was born.

Robb was conceived some time after the Battle of the Bells. So unless the Battle of the Bells was nine or ten months before the Sack of King's Landing, Jon Snow is older than Robb and he was conceived before Eddard married Catelyn.

And, according to Jaime Lannister, the Battle of the Bells probably took place just a few weeks before the Sack of King's Landing, which is around the time Jon was born. This is because Jaime tells us exactly what happened right after the Battle of the Bells. Connington was exiled, Selmy and Darry were sent to Stony Sept to collect Connington's army, Lewyn Martell met the Dornish army that was somewhere between Storm's End and King's Landing, Rhaegar returned from the South, and Aerys started stashing wildfire all over King's Landing. While all of this was happening ("My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see"), Lord Chelsted noticed, confronted Aerys, resigned and was burned. Less than 2 weeks later, King's Landing was sacked and Jon Snow was born. So unless it took Selmy and Darry 9-10 months to find Connington's army, or unless Aerys kept Connington's army and Lewyn's army hanging around King's Landing for that long before riding out to meet the rebels, this all happened in just a few weeks.

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That's right. The books never say first hand that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. We get that third hand from Daenerys, Barristan and (maybe) Meera Reed. I am applying the same logic to Eddard and Ashara. We get that they were in love from Edric Dayne, Catelyn, Cersei and (maybe) Harwin.

Only Edric was in touch with someone who has first-hand information, and while he claims that Ashara and Ned were in love, he names Wylla as Jon's mother. Barristan had direct contact with Rhaegar, Dany got her version from Viserys who had nine months during which he had contact with Rhaella who in turn certainly talked to Rhaegar at least once after he returned to KL, and Meera is the daughter of Howland Reed who apparently knows more than just a thing or two. Now I'd like to hear how Catelyn, Cersei or Harwin ever got Ned or Ashara confide to them.

I'm being open-minded to the possibility that Eddard fell for Ashara during the tournament at Harrenhall and that he continued to have feelings for her after that. I'm also being open-minded to the possibility that Rhaegar fell for Lyanna during the tournament at Harrenhall and that he continued to have feelings for her after that.

I somehow missed the part when Ned kidnapped Ashara as a confirmation of their fellings.

Not just Catelyn. Cersei figures it out, too.

Cersei has zero idea when Jon was born and whether any meeting was possible or not. Her version is very much the same as lord Godric's - neither knows when Jon was born and simply try to pair Ned with some woman.

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Sure, it happens all the time in real life.

And it has to be what happened here, whoever Jon Snow's mother was, because Robb Stark was conceived around the same time as Jon was born.

:rofl: Stop, please stop! :lmao:

There is no way that Catelyn is going to see Jon and Robb side by side, and be jealous about Ned having an affair after they were wed,if Jon doesn't appear to be younger that Robb who is just a few months old. Have you ever been around very young babies? There is a huge difference in weeks of age, even days.

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