The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not saying it wasn't the cold. But you seem to state that cold+wights is different from cold+popsicles, in as much that cold+wights put people to sleep while cold+popsicles don't, which I don't see any strong evidence for. If that's not what you're saying then I indeed misunderstood you. I do find it hard sometimes to understand your posts, so it's quite possible.

It's not besides the point - if wight-cold had a sleep-inducing effect, then it'd be really unlikely that already sleeping people would wake up spontaneously, as both Gilly and then Sam did.

That's true about them being woken up. However, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about their falling asleep being anything extraordinary.

Varamyr was already dying, chilled to the bone AND his wound is bleeding and inflammated at the same time AND hungry. He's sprawled out in the snow for who knows how long, his mind wanders off and eventually he falls asleep. Seems perfectly normal under those circumstances.

And the same with Jon. There's nothing sudden implied:

“My father is no traitor,” he told the direwolf when the rest had gone. Ghost looked at him in silence. Jon slumped against the wall, hands around his knees, and stared at the candle on the table beside his narrow bed. The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought.

Yet he must have dozed.When he woke, his legs were stiff and cramped and the candle had long since burned out.

He's staring at the dancing flame and shadows, brooding, and dozes off, presumably before the wight attack, bcause he sleeps for a significant amount of time (cramped legs, candle burned out).

No problem,not every body gets it ,some do and maybe you're not one of those people and that's ok ask away and reason i have no probs with that.

You're still missing it,you stated it but you're sill missing it. Context is everything and clues abound as to what's happening in the room.

My father is no traitor,” he told the direwolf when the rest had gone. Ghost looked at him in silence. Jon slumped against the wall, hands around his knees, and stared at the candle on the table beside his narrow bed. The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought.

Yet he must have dozed.When he woke, his legs were stiff and cramped and the candle had long since burned out.

He is against the wall looking at the candles,he is now giving a description of what he sees and experiences happening in the room ( it's nothing to him,but for us the observant looker what is insignificant to Jon IS the clue for us) because we've seen it before.

We know how long he was looking at it because we can compare that to the fact that while he was out the candle had burnt down. So from being the observant looker we know he wasn't looking at it long because of the candle was still up the moment he closed his eyes.

As to cold+wights as being different from cold+popsicles yes, i'm saying they are not the same thing.Small Paul was alone for one, so i doubt him by himself would have had much of an effect on a 200lb + Sam and Gilly. But there is something in that room that made all the difference and i'm putting money on it being a factor in them not waking up dead-THE FIRE they had in the hearth,that may have saved them.If Small Paul had been with Wight posse it would have been over,that size would have snuffed that fire for sure.

Again compare that to Mel's insistence on not letting her hearth fires go out night and day and not sleeping.

( But i would ask,how long do you think Small Paul was standing in the doorway and what was he doing just standing in the doorway?).

Yes i agree V6 was dying hence the reason i said him falling asleep could be attributed to blood loss etc.after the Weirwood branch snapped and he fell,he was down there a while having a nice conversation with himself before.

Though again him having enough strength to attempted a run on Thistle body can also throw a wench in yeah he was dying but he was strong enough.That is a lesser correlation but put with the other stronger ones make sense and is valid.

What i want to draw attention to is the below.

That was the beast, not me,” he said in a hoarse whisper. “That was the gift you gave me.”

The gods made no reply. His breath hung pale and misty in the air. He could feel ice forming in

his beard. Varamyr Sixskins closed his eyes.

The Highlighted moment is the clue,this is where being observant comes in,we already know he has a fever,ice was melting on him he feels it dripping he said that verbatim.It wasn't forming ice crystals on him in the regular cold.

This is when we knew the temp dropped,this is when we knew they were near.Then his dream and being roused by Thistle.

Hey if them falling asleep how ever weirdly and off it seems is nothing,its nothing. I'm just identifying a pattern that seems very relevant.

[evita mgfs]

Not unless you are including mad scientists. LOL! Every time I go back and look at aGoT, I find something else that makes me sit up straight. Not only does Tyrion's encounter with a stone man mirror Jon's encounter with Othor in many ways; Othor mirrors Tyrion himself:

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes...,

You would "love" my analysis in which I compared Tyrion to Homeric hero Odysseus. I will have to search for my files on Tyrion.

I love your contributions - they are sincerely grounded and backed by evidence.

[wolfmaid7]

Hey Lynns and Evita i noticed something in that read with Sam and Small paul.

(asos pg.644) It says in that Sam POV that a Raven was on Small Paul's shoulder pecking at his cheek and eating it. But i thought when they had found Othor and Jaffar Sam noticed that no animals ate it or went near the bodies(save Ghost).

What's up with those ravens?

Edit: Confirmed it......What's up with those Ravens?

[wolfmaid7]

Lynns great work on showing the parallel between the stone wights and the ice wights.I do love the biological connection and a big part of be is seriously contemplating that "the cold" has some type of pathogen in it.Maybe some type of cold loving extremaphile

GRRM did say disease will be play a big part,so again it is possible.I would like to compile a supernatural version theory and a scientific theory to it.But you got the scientific down and pretty much detailed so beautifully.

[nanother]

No problem,not every body gets it ,some do and maybe you're not one of those people and that's ok

You're still missing it,you stated it but you're sill missing it. Context is everything and clues abound as to what's happening in the room.

My father is no traitor,” he told the direwolf when the rest had gone. Ghost looked at him in silence. Jon slumped against the wall, hands around his knees, and stared at the candle on the table beside his narrow bed.

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought.

Yet he must have dozed.When he woke, his legs were stiff and cramped and the candle had long since burned out.

He is against the wall looking at the candles,he is now giving a description of what he sees and experiences happening in the room ( it's nothing to him,but for us the observant looker what is insignificant to Jon IS the clue for us) because we've seen it before.

We know how long he was looking at it because we can compare that to the fact that while he was out the candle had burnt down. So from being the observant looker we know he wasn't looking at it long because of the candle was still up the moment he closed his eyes.

:dunce: No he wasn't looking at it long, so what? A minute or a half could be long enough. Honestly,it pretty much reminds me of my own experiences when I felt like I was too upset/worried/excited to sleep, but in fact I was more exhausted than I knew and did fall asleep without noticing. Sorry if I'm really dense :dunno:

Unless you mean that there was a single flicker of flame that signalled the wights' awakening? But then how do you explain it took them so long to get to Mormont afterwards?

As to cold+wights as being different from cold+popsicles yes, i'm saying they are not the same thing.Small Paul was alone for one, so i doubt him by himself would have had much of an effect on a 200lb + Sam and Gilly came too after Sam awoke( the answer to that is in this question,how long do you think Small Paul was standing in the doorway and what was he doing just standing in the doorway).

What do you mean alone - there were other wights nearby, attacking Gilly and the horse when they went outside. They were significantly more likely to have an effect on Sam & Gilly than the two wights at CB on Jon, especially seeing that he fall asleep long before they got anywhere near him.

BTW, the raven pecking at un-SP belongs to Coldhands/Bloodraven, so it's not afraid of him for the same reason as Ghost...

Yes i agree V6 was dying hence the reason i said him falling asleep could be attributed to blood loss etc.after the Weirwood branch snapped and he fell,he was down there a while having a nice conversation with himself before:

The Highlighted moment is the clue,this is where being observant comes in,we already know he has a fever,ice was melting on him he feels it dripping.This is when we knew the temp dropped,this is when we knew they were near.

It's possible to see it that way, but I think you're being overly observant here and seeing too much into it.

What exctaly is the significance of wight-cold putting people asleep anyway? It's not clear to me what role it plays in your theory...

edit: fixed quote, hopefully

[evita mgfs]

Hey Lynns and Evita i noticed something in that read with Sam and Small paul.

(asos pg.644) It says in that Sam POV that a Raven was on Small Paul's shoulder pecking at his cheek and eating it. But i thought when they had found Othor and Jaffar Sam noticed that no animals ate it or went near the bodies(save Ghost).

What's up with those ravens?

Edit: Confirmed it......What's up with those Ravens?

The Old Bear's raven eats off the lord commander's face after his death, according to Jon Snow's second-handed, as yet unnamed source.

I am going back to read the entire section - to get the feel for it.

BTW: the ravens are being skinchanged by other "riders" - and in ADwD, the ravens are working together in a murder similar to the raven activity in ASoS only Bran is moving them in ADwD.

I'll get back to you after I study what's what. ****Redriver knows a lot about ravens.

[wolfmaid7]

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought.

Yet he must have dozed.When he woke, his legs were stiff and cramped and the candle had long since burned out.

He is against the wall looking at the candles,he is now giving a description of what he sees and experiences happening in the room ( it's nothing to him,but for us the observant looker what is insignificant to Jon IS the clue for us) because we've seen it before.

We know how long he was looking at it because we can compare that to the fact that while he was out the candle had burnt down. So from being the observant looker we know he wasn't looking at it long because of the candle was still up the moment he closed his eyes.

:dunce: No he wasn't looking at it long, so what? A minute or a half could be long enough. Honestly,it pretty much reminds me of my own experiences when I felt like I was too upset/worried/excited to sleep, but in fact I was more exhausted than I knew and did fall asleep without noticing. Sorry if I'm really dense :dunno:

Unless you mean that there was a single flicker of flame that signalled the wights' awakening? But then how do you explain it took them so long to get to Mormont afterwards?

What do you mean alone - there were other wights nearby, attacking Gilly and the horse when they went outside. They were significantly more likely to have an effect on Sam & Gilly than the two wights at CB on Jon, especially seeing that he fall asleep long before they got anywhere near him.

BTW, the raven pecking at un-SP belongs to Coldhands/Bloodraven, so it's not afraid of him for the same reason as Ghost...

It's possible to see it that way, but I think you're being overly observant here and seeing too much into it.

What exctaly is the significance of wight-cold putting people asleep anyway? It's not clear to me what role it plays in your theory...

No you aren't dense, and i appreciate the posts a lot. Nanother there is no such thing as being overly observant i've never heard such a thing in my life.

I was specifically speaking in terms of the room they were in ( Sam and Gilly) and the fact that the fire most likely saved them.As to why it took them so long to get to Mormont room, well their not fast,had to kill a guard on the way.Had to climb steps...pick their obstacles.

I can't use your experience as fact or opinion because including me when i'm tired/upset i can't sleep and will be up for hours.Same might go for others.

I wasn't aware of the Raven belonging to CH/BR where is that inferred or stated? I may have missed that.

First i don't think what "the cold" is a conscious act,it is what it is whether its one of them or 100.One only has to look at what happen to Toywin,Tourmond's son. He was in the camp with them asleep and woke up dead.According to Tourmond he was always sickly....V6 as you said was dying and Thislte was choking on her own blood.

As to why use wights,why not ?

1.If we look at Bacteria they are very adaptable,always looking for a more convenient way to get you.Always looking for some host to ride on to get them where they need to go.So if your the cold "host" provide protection, a delivery system and a new resource to use.

2. Without bodies the cold is limited to the dead,and the dying( when they finally die) but with the Wights as a suit it can kill because that's what humans do ( adaptable) so that's a part of human nature it is using to multiply

3. Bodies provide them access past the wall,while in dormant stage. (Othor and Jaffar when it's warm and light out) Do we really think that mistake in future Mele won't be made again?

4. What better way for Wights to give people a cold kiss while they are sleeping. If you're asleep you won't fight.

[evita mgfs]

:dunce: No he wasn't looking at it long, so what? A minute or a half could be long enough. Honestly,it pretty much reminds me of my own experiences when I felt like I was too upset/worried/excited to sleep, but in fact I was more exhausted than I knew and did fall asleep without noticing. Sorry if I'm really dense :dunno:

Unless you mean that there was a single flicker of flame that signalled the wights' awakening? But then how do you explain it took them so long to get to Mormont afterwards?

What do you mean alone - there were other wights nearby, attacking Gilly and the horse when they went outside. They were significantly more likely to have an effect on Sam & Gilly than the two wights at CB on Jon, especially seeing that he fall asleep long before they got anywhere near him.

BTW, the raven pecking at un-SP belongs to Coldhands/Bloodraven, so it's not afraid of him for the same reason as Ghost...

It's possible to see it that way, but I think you're being overly observant here and seeing too much into it.

What exctaly is the significance of wight-cold putting people asleep anyway? It's not clear to me what role it plays in your theory...

edit: fixed quote, hopefully

From what I can see from the "candle" is that Jon falls asleep while transfixed on the flame.

When Jon wakes, the flame is gone: which MAY suggest that Jon has been sleeping longer - an hour or more - rather than Jon merely taking a quick cat-nap. However, the arrival of the "cold" may have put out the flame [i do not onbelieve this, though].

Wolfmaid7's theory is that the arrival of the cold is like a visit from the sandman. Somehow, the cold makes humans - maybe others - sleepy.

I am not sure about the sleeping spell, but I really find Wolfmaid7's "cold kiss" intriguing. The WW transform the living/dead into wights via a "cold kiss".

With the addition of several new threads opened during this day and evening, "new" information is being shared that might advance or refute the "cold" theory.

What I can see is that the "wind stops" when the cold arrives.

[wolfmaid7]

The Old Bear's raven eats off the lord commander's face after his death, according to Jon Snow's second-handed, as yet unnamed source.

I am going back to read the entire section - to get the feel for it.

BTW: the ravens are being skinchanged by other "riders" - and in ADwD, the ravens are working together in a murder similar to the raven activity in ASoS only Bran is moving them in ADwD.

I'll get back to you after I study what's what. ****Redriver knows a lot about ravens.

I was thinking Mormont wasn't Wighted yet,so that's understandable.But Yep the skinchanged Raven could be a loophold.

[wolfmaid7]

From what I can see from the "candle" is that Jon falls asleep while transfixed on the flame.

When Jon wakes, the flame is gone: which MAY suggest that Jon has been sleeping longer - an hour or more - rather than Jon merely taking a quick cat-nap. However, the arrival of the "cold" may have put out the flame [i do not onbelieve this, though].

Wolfmaid7's theory is that the arrival of the cold is like a visit from the sandman. Somehow, the cold makes humans - maybe others - sleepy.

I am not sure about the sleeping spell, but I really find Wolfmaid7's "cold kiss" intriguing. The WW transform the living/dead into wights via a "cold kiss".

With the addition of several new threads opened during this day and evening, "new" information is being shared that might advance or refute the "cold" theory.

What I can see is that the "wind stops" when the cold arrives.

I don't believe Othor and Jaffar put out the flame either, its seems only popsicles have that little trick. i think the "suddenly growing cold and dark" observation by Jon was the key to indicating they had risen and were close enough that Jon was affected.What better way to give people a kiss while they are sleeping.No fighting that's some twisted sleeping beauty type thingy right there.

Now i don't think the WWs have anything to do with what the Wights are doing,i think there just guilty by association because they are cold.This is an argument i don't get and won't buy because if the intent is to use wights against humanity you don't need to lead them they seem to be doing pretty good on their own.Today we have not seen any wight horde or attack that has anything or link to Popsicles.

Yep i noticed that too about the Wind when you pointed out

[evita mgfs]

I don't believe Othor and Jaffar put out the flame either,i think the "suddenly growing cold and dark" observation by Jon was the key to indicating they had risen and were close enough that Jon was affected.What better way to give people a kiss while they are sleeping.

EXACTLY! The kiss idea is appealing - and it seems proficient in that many wights can be kissed at the same time. Now, I am trying to wrap my head around Bran's powers - he animates Coldhands. Jojen says that CH is Bran's "monster", meaning CH is a figment - or part of - Bran's imagination and his growing powers.

To me, Bran's power to animate a corpse is similar to the powers of the WW. Yes?

[wolfmaid7]

EXACTLY! The kiss idea is appealing - and it seems proficient in that many wights can be kissed at the same time. Now, I am trying to wrap my head around Bran's powers - he animates Coldhands. Jojen says that CH is Bran's "monster", meaning CH is a figment - or part of - Bran's imagination and his growing powers.

To me, Bran's power to animate a corpse is similar to the powers of the WW. Yes?

True if you believe the WWs are animating the Wights,but i don't ( sorry) i just don't see any proof of that.With respect to CH i believe he was skinchanger that reclaimed his body after it was corrupted by "the cold".

[nanother]

No you aren't dense, and i appreciate the posts a lot. Nanother there is no such thing as being overly observant i've never heard such a thing in my life.

By overly observant I mean that perhaps too eager to find clues that fit your theory and seeing evidence even where there isn't really one. I find these passages very weak evidence at best.

I can't use your experience as fact or opinion because including me when i'm tired/upset i can't sleep and will be up for hours.Same might go for others.

ETA: I meant to say, but got distracted by the raven: I'm usually the same way, that's why it's all the more remarkable when I'm just sooooo exhausted that in spite of thinking I won't be able to sleep, suddenly I wake up to apparently having been asleep :p so I just assumed that's kind of what was going on with Jon

I wasn't aware of the Raven belonging to CH/BR where is that inferred or stated? I may have missed that.

Well, CH& his raves show up shortly after to save the day. I mean night :P

Also, let's see if we can track the raven (we know it was sitting on unSP's shoulder to begin with):

Samwell Tarly threw himself forward and plunged the dagger down into Small Paul’s back. Half-turned, the wight never saw him coming. The raven gave a shriek and took to the air.

But the raven seems to be sticking around. After the struggle was over:

The wight was burning, hoarfrost dripping from his beard as the flesh beneath blackened. Sam heard the raven shriek, but Paul himself made no sound.

The ontside, seeing Gilly surrounded by wights:

Sam made a whimpery sound. “It’s not fair...”

“Fair.” The raven landed on his shoulder. “Fair, far, fear.” It flapped its wings, and screamed

along with Gilly. The wights were almost on her. He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling,

whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know. The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around

them the trees groaned and creaked. Sam Tarly turned the color of curdled milk, and his eyes went wide

as plates. Ravens! They were in the weirwood, hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white

branches, peering between the leaves. He saw their beaks open as they screamed, saw them spread their

black wings. Shrieking, flapping, they descended on the wights in angry clouds. They swarmed round

Chett’s face and pecked at his blue eyes, they covered the Sisterman like flies, they plucked gobbets

from inside Hake’s shattered head. There were so many that when Sam looked up, he could not see the

moon.

“Go,” said the bird on his shoulder. “Go, go, go.”

And then CH himself shows up.

So it seems to be the same raven all the way through (or Sam perceives it as the same raven), and at the end it gets show off it's remarkable vocabulary :P just before CH and the rest of the murder reveal themselves.

Also, this sentence is worth repeating: He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling,

whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know.

Would that be the True Tongue?

[evita mgfs]

True if you believe the WWs are animating the Wights,but i don't ( sorry) i just don't see any proof of that.With respect to CH i believe he was skinchanger that reclaimed his body after it was corrupted by "the cold".

I perhaps chose the wrong term "animate" - I was seeking a verb that would encompass what happens with the dead in both camps: Starks and White Walkers.

I myself am not quite decided on the magic that raises the dead - if that is even a correct way to express myself.

ColdHands is a dead crow that Bran has appropriated to be his "monster". Using evidence from the text, readers learn that Bran is a powerful skinchanger. To me, logically, Bran skinchanges the dead Cold Hands.

I am fairly convinced that Bran can control more than one skin at a time.

How the White Walkers manipulate their wight army is still a mystery to me. It stands to reason they may achieve animating wights by the same means as Bran, but Jojen says in the HBO series that NO ONE has ever had Bran's power to enter a man's head like Bran demonstrates with Hodor. But the television show is discounted as viable evidence.

It is Old Nan's story that has lead me to believe the wights are commanded by the White Walkers - and I am probably reading analysis that speaks to this.

I always enjoy "new" perspectives that are unique to what others say over and over again in some threads. That is one of many reasons I am a fan of yours!

Also, I believe the candle burning out is how Martin establishes passage of time. I do not think it is blown out by any force at all.

[nanother]

From what I can see from the "candle" is that Jon falls asleep while transfixed on the flame. (1)

When Jon wakes, the flame is gone: which MAY suggest that Jon has been sleeping longer - an hour or more - rather than Jon merely taking a quick cat-nap. However, the arrival of the "cold" may have put out the flame [i do not onbelieve this, though].

Wolfmaid7's theory is that the arrival of the cold is like a visit from the sandman. Somehow, the cold makes humans - maybe others - sleepy.

I am not sure about the sleeping spell, but I really find Wolfmaid7's "cold kiss" intriguing. The WW transform the living/dead into wights via a "cold kiss".

With the addition of several new threads opened during this day and evening, "new" information is being shared that might advance or refute the "cold" theory.

What I can see is that the "wind stops" when the cold arrives.

EXACTLY! The kiss idea is appealing - and it seems proficient in that many wights can be kissed at the same time. Now, I am trying to wrap my head around Bran's powers - he animates Coldhands. Jojen says that CH is Bran's "monster", meaning CH is a figment - or part of - Bran's imagination and his growing powers.

To me, Bran's power to animate a corpse is similar to the powers of the WW. Yes?

The 'kiss' idea is indeed appealing, it's really just the 'sleeping spell' part I have issue with. My interpretation of Jon's experience is I think largely the same as yours.

I also like the idea of Bran possibly having animated CH, I'll have to investigate the matter. Do you have a link to a more detailed explanation of your theory? A correction, though: it's not Jojen who says that, it's CH himself.

True if you believe the WWs are animating the Wights,but i don't ( sorry) i just don't see any proof of that.With respect to CH i believe he was skinchanger that reclaimed his body after it was corrupted by "the cold".

I agree that it's The Cold that animates the wights, but I think it's still the WW that control them, or else they're all controlled by the same entity. I don't see the WW being mere 'janitors' either. For one, how are they supposed to be disposing of the wights? Or do they just keep them working for them indefinitely? If so, what are they used for?

From what we see, wights instinctively attracted to life and go for the kill. Looking at their behaviour during some of the most remarkable encounters, I don't think they're just being kept out of the way. And the way they are being used looks suspiciously like warfare, although I'm still in the process of trying to make sense of it.

One potentially relevant thing I noticed: the Other Sam slays rides a dead horse. Presumably one that was slain at the fist, certainly one that SP recognizes as one of the Black Brothers'. However, when Mance's host arrives at the fist, they find dead horses there. Implying that some of the horses were animated to serve as mounts, but some others were left there. Not sure what's the significance, if any.

In silence they circled round to the south slope, where the approach was easiest. It was there at the bottom that Jon saw the dead horse, sprawled at the base of the hill, half buried in the snow. Entrails spilled from the belly of the animal like frozen snakes, and one of its legs was gone. Wolves, was Jon’s first thought, but that was wrong. Wolves eat their kill.

More garrons were strewn across the slope, legs twisted grotesquely, blind eyes staring in death. The wildlings crawled over them like flies, stripping them of saddles, bridles, packs, and armor, and hacking them apart with stone axes.

“Up,” Rattleshirt told Jon. “Mance is up top.”

Outside the ringwall they dismounted to squeeze through a crooked gap in the stones. The carcass of a shaggy brown garron was impaled upon the sharpened stakes the Old Bear had placed inside every entrance. He was trying to get out, not in. There was no sign of a rider.

Inside was more, and worse. Jon had never seen pink snow before. The wind gusted around him, pulling at his heavy sheepskin cloak. Ravens flapped from one dead horse to the next. Are those wild ravens, or our own? Jon could not tell. He wondered where poor Sam was now. And what he was.

A crust of frozen blood crunched beneath the heel of his boot. The wildlings were stripping the dead horses of every scrap of steel and leather, even prying the horseshoes off their hooves. A few were going through packs they’d turned up, looking for weapons and food. Jon passed one of Chett’s dogs, or what remained of him, lying in a sludgy pool of halffrozen blood.

[evita mgfs]

The 'kiss' idea is indeed appealing, it's really just the 'sleeping spell' part I have issue with. My interpretation of Jon's experience is I think largely the same as yours.

I also like the idea of Bran possibly having animated CH, I'll have to investigate the matter. Do you have a link to a more detailed explanation of your theory? A correction, though: it's not Jojen who says that, it's CH himself.

I agree that it's The Cold that animates the wights, but I think it's still the WW that control them, or else they're all controlled by the same entity. I don't see the WW being mere 'janitors' either. For one, how are they supposed to be disposing of the wights? Or do they just keep them working for them indefinitely? If so, what are they used for?

snip

A crust of frozen blood crunched beneath the heel of his boot. The wildlings were stripping the dead horses of every scrap of steel and leather, even prying the horseshoes off their hooves. A few were going through packs they’d turned up, looking for weapons and food. Jon passed one of Chett’s dogs, or what remained of him, lying in a sludgy pool of halffrozen blood.

In the television series, Jojen says this as well. But thanks for a source in the text to add to my arsenal - the more evidence the better.

In ADwD, page 70 - but lots of other good evidence comes before this page. Please check out p. 70 - Upon rereading the entire passage where the kids are asking CH questions, the "monster" referred to may be "Bloodraven", not ColdHands. See what you think.

Or does Martin imply that both CH and BR are Bran's monsters.

Check it out - and I will too. Back in a few!

[evita mgfs]

NANOTHER:

OK – I understand how the conversation is going.

Bran wargs Summer for part of the chapter, but when he returns to his own skin, Meera tells Bran that the ranger “killed a pig”.

Bran has been in Summer, so he knows that the meat being served is not pork. Bran tries to get information from the enigmatic CH, asking him what happened to the alleged “foes” [who were really men from the NW].

CH assures Bran by repeating that “They were foes” (69).

Bran: “You killed them. You and the ravens. Their faces were all torn, and their eyes were gone . . . they were your brothers. I saw . . . Who are you? Why are your hands black?”

Meera demands that CH show his face, but he does not. Bran continues with his rant, He’s dead . . . he’s some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl” (70).

Meera asks Coldhands who sent him and she demands to know who the 3EC is.

Coldhands says, “A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer.”

“A monster,” Bran said.

“YOUR MONSTER, BRANDON STARK,” says the ranger.

A raven echoes from CH’s shoulder “Yours” four times.

Jojen closes the chapter with “We go with BRAN’S MONSTER, or we die” (70).

IMPORTANT: It is very likely the raven that sits on CH’s shoulder is actually Mormont’s raven. The bird stayed with Mormont’s corpse, and later it is reported that the bird ate the LC’s face – and the raven likely has something to do with the NW violators meeting an ugly fate. These men sinned against the sacred laws of hospitality, which is why CH says that they are “foes”

So – if CH draws this conclusion, then the fates of these men is their punishment for violating the laws of hospitality, a punishment that fits the crimes of the NW at Craster’s: they killed their host, they raped their host’s wives and daughters, and they depleted the stores for the upcoming winter. They also killed their own LC.

Now, what is the deal with scratching out the eyes? Does it have anything to do with the faces on the heart trees? ****Why does Thistle gouge out her eyes and bite out her tongue?

Now, I will go back to my “long-read” paper to locate my notes on hospitality and violators’ punishments.

I’ll be back.

[wolfmaid7]

By overly observant I mean that perhaps too eager to find clues that fit your theory and seeing evidence even where there isn't really one. I find these passages very weak evidence at best.

ETA: I meant to say, but got distracted by the raven: I'm usually the same way, that's why it's all the more remarkable when I'm just sooooo exhausted that in spite of thinking I won't be able to sleep, suddenly I wake up to apparently having been asleep :P so I just assumed that's kind of what was going on with Jon

Well, CH& his raves show up shortly after to save the day. I mean night :P

Also, let's see if we can track the raven (we know it was sitting on unSP's shoulder to begin with):

Samwell Tarly threw himself forward and plunged the dagger down into Small Paul’s back. Half-turned, the wight never saw him coming. The raven gave a shriek and took to the air.

But the raven seems to be sticking around. After the struggle was over:

The wight was burning, hoarfrost dripping from his beard as the flesh beneath blackened. Sam heard the raven shriek, but Paul himself made no sound.

The ontside, seeing Gilly surrounded by wights:

Sam made a whimpery sound. “It’s not fair...”

“Fair.” The raven landed on his shoulder. “Fair, far, fear.” It flapped its wings, and screamed

along with Gilly. The wights were almost on her. He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling,

whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know. The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around

them the trees groaned and creaked. Sam Tarly turned the color of curdled milk, and his eyes went wide

as plates. Ravens! They were in the weirwood, hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white

branches, peering between the leaves. He saw their beaks open as they screamed, saw them spread their

black wings. Shrieking, flapping, they descended on the wights in angry clouds. They swarmed round

Chett’s face and pecked at his blue eyes, they covered the Sisterman like flies, they plucked gobbets

from inside Hake’s shattered head. There were so many that when Sam looked up, he could not see the

moon.

“Go,” said the bird on his shoulder. “Go, go, go.”

And then CH himself shows up.

So it seems to be the same raven all the way through (or Sam perceives it as the same raven), and at the end it gets show off it's remarkable vocabulary :P just before CH and the rest of the murder reveal themselves.

Also, this sentence is worth repeating: He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling,

whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know.

Would that be the True Tongue?

I find the passages very strong and even more so when taken together. I think it has a lot with how people are trained to think.I'm not eager in a bit to have this theory be true,just as i wasn't eager to have the Dragonbond theory be true,but it was. Why? because clues and patterns were there. That is all i'm doing putting patterns together and translating them.Nothing more nothing less. Some supporting data and details can be stronger than others they are part of bigger picture.I find the sleep aspect as very viable because logically speaking it explains the wildlings in the AGOT prologue and it explains why Toywin( i'm sure i'm butchering the spelling) woke as a wight and no one else was affected.

If someone is asleep it is easy to administer the cold kiss than having to fight someone that's wide awake.It becomes easier still if the person is compromised in some way( Hungry,sick,wounded etc).

But trust me the skepticism is appreciated and welcomed,i've been down this road before with the Dragonbond theory so it's not a new territory...The enjoyable part for me is not in whether my theory can be wrong or not it's all about the research baby........i live for the research.

I will have to go over the Raven thing,because i'm not sure about the Bran/BR connection.

I perhaps chose the wrong term "animate" - I was seeking a verb that would encompass what happens with the dead in both camps: Starks and White Walkers.

I myself am not quite decided on the magic that raises the dead - if that is even a correct way to express myself.

ColdHands is a dead crow that Bran has appropriated to be his "monster". Using evidence from the text, readers learn that Bran is a powerful skinchanger. To me, logically, Bran skinchanges the dead Cold Hands.

I am fairly convinced that Bran can control more than one skin at a time.

How the White Walkers manipulate their wight army is still a mystery to me. It stands to reason they may achieve animating wights by the same means as Bran, but Jojen says in the HBO series that NO ONE has ever had Bran's power to enter a man's head like Bran demonstrates with Hodor. But the television show is discounted as viable evidence.

It is Old Nan's story that has lead me to believe the wights are commanded by the White Walkers - and I am probably reading analysis that speaks to this.

I always enjoy "new" perspectives that are unique to what others say over and over again in some threads. That is one of many reasons I am a fan of yours!

Also, I believe the candle burning out is how Martin establishes passage of time. I do not think it is blown out by any force at all.

Old Nan's tale definitely speak of WW's leading armies of the slain". All the tales be it Old Nan's or the Annals give us a unique opportunity retrospectively speaking. We now have the same conditions occurring and so we can weigh the tales against each other.Are they true or are they false.

When it comes to the WWs are they leading the dead are they responsible for the Wights rising?

If yes among other proof how do we explain the stone wights with Tyrion an Co.no WWs but what is present is cold,how do we explain the dead things in the water no WWs present but "The cold" is ever present.

And to this day we have not seen them leading Wights to do any thing against man. Yes we have seen them ride dead horses and i have no doubt that they control the dead. That after all was their purpose.Without the WWs being able to coral them in the end the realm would have been screwed.How else do we think thousands upon thousands of Wights the last time around were dealt with? How did they leave who took them from the domains of man?

the difference is way back when 6 or so WWs controlling a Direwolf here a Giant there a couple of other animals etc was doable they could manage that. Now 8,000 yrs ago and now we have hundreds upon thousands of people among other things rising. How is 6 WWs going to handle them,moreso logistically speaking its not possible for them to have raised all those wights.

[evita mgfs]

I find the passages very strong and even more so when taken together. I think it has a lot with how people are trained to think.I'm not eager in a bit to have this theory be true,just as i wasn't eager to have the Dragonbond theory be true,but it was. Why? because clues and patterns were there. That is all i'm doing putting patterns together and translating them.Nothing more nothing less. Some supporting data and details can be stronger than others they are part of bigger picture.I find the sleep aspect as very viable because logically speaking it explains the wildlings in the AGOT prologue and it explains why Toywin( i'm sure i'm butchering the spelling) woke as a wight and no one else was affected.

If someone is asleep it is easy to administer the cold kiss than having to fight someone that's wide awake.It becomes easier still if the person is compromised in some way( Hungry,sick,wounded etc).

But trust me the skepticism is appreciated and welcomed,i've been down this road before with the Dragonbond theory so it's not a new territory...The enjoyable part for me is not in whether my theory can be wrong or not it's all about the research baby........i live for the research.

I will have to go over the Raven thing,because i'm not sure about the Bran/BR connection.

Old Nan's tale definitely speak of WW's leading armies of the slain". All the tales be it Old Nan's or the Annals give us a unique opportunity retrospectively speaking. We now have the same conditions occurring and so we can weigh the tales against each other.Are they true or are they false.

When it comes to the WWs are they leading the dead are they responsible for the Wights rising?

If yes among other proof how do we explain the stone wights with Tyrion an Co.no WWs but what is present is cold,how do we explain the dead things in the water no WWs present but "The cold" is ever present.

And to this day we have not seen them leading Wights to do any thing against man. Yes we have seen them ride dead horses and i have no doubt that they control the dead. That after all was their purpose.Without the WWs being able to coral them in the end the realm would have been screwed.How else do we think thousands upon thousands of Wights the last time around were dealt with? How did they leave who took them from the domains of man?

the difference is way back when 6 or so WWs controlling a Direwolf here a Giant there a couple of other animals etc was doable they could manage that. Now 8,000 yrs ago and now we have hundreds upon thousands of people among other things rising. How is 6 WWs going to handle them,moreso logistically speaking its not possible for them to have raised all those wights.

HEY, WOLFMAID7: Did you notice what I DISCOVERED in the passage above? The raven on Coldhand's shoulder is MORMONT'S RAVEN.

Oh, everyone probably knew that already. I was so excited to realize what was going on in Bran's passage - and it certainly has helped me to understand what is going on with Bran and his monsters.

I am not sure about how the WW facilitate anything. I see Stark parallels in regards to Bran's powers, which I naively assumed would be the same as the WW's powers. Nope - not really. [it cheers me up actually. I want Bran's powers to be his own - and far exceeding any other wizard or greenseer's powers.]

Regarding the STONE WIGHTS: I have not studied that passage completely, but I will.

I mentioned "somewhere" - all these threads are running together - that Bran will command Lord Brandon from his sepulcher THROUGH STONE MADE FLESH.- "blood magic" that demands blood and fire. In AGoT, Luwin, SD, and Summer spill blood near Brandon's tomb. A torch is dropped at Brandon's stone feet. charring them.

Dustin opens the crypts to remove Brandon's sword, but it is already gone - shared by Bran/Hodor.

These points, and others, lead me to conclude that Bran's forces are behind the Ghost in Winterfell. The suspicious death of Littlle Walder speaks to Bran's loathing him. evident in ACoK: LW calls Hodor a horse and makes fun of the simple giant. Furthermore, LW disputed that Bran is the Lord of WF when they played Lord of the Crossing.

But these words from AGoT speak to Bran's journey as a greenseer with great power:

In AGoT, Ned says to Bran:

“One day Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will belong to you.When this day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away.A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is” (16).

NOW, I will ADJUST Ned’s wording to fit Bran’s situation “presently” as we know it:

“One day, Bran, you will be a greenseer, sitting a weirwood throne of your own for the old gods of the North, and justice will belong to you.When that day comes, you must take no vengeance for personal reasons, but neither must you shirk your duties as part of the godhood.A god who hides behind the face of a weirwood tree soon forgets what death is.”

[nanother]

OMG

From ADwD as Bran& co are trying to reach the CtF cave:

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame.

Almost the exact same wording as Mirri's dancing shadows... never noticed that before :dunce: