The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

[wolfmaid7]

ohpooratlas, asked a few postings ago about wheter or not Jon feeling "the cold" meant that it had breached the wall. I responded i certainly believe that is the case. I came across this conversation in reading today and it hit me smack dab in the face. Lady Mel may be a zealot who may need help with her interpretations but the woman can provide a lot of insight.

First this is a woman that has professed on several occasions that she does not feel cold,"her faith keeps her farm, and the fire of R'hollor ives in her" etc. I have no reason to doubt that because on the wall Jon has been our senses to how warm this woman is:

"After the warmth of the King's solar the turnpike staircase was bone chilling cold"."Winds rising my lady ,you might want to dress warmer".I have my faith to warm me".( They are heading back across the yard,a few sentences later)

Jon could feel her heat ,even through his wool and boiled leather".

This is how hot this woman is,she actually emits heat.Now the clincher quote:

"Ice i see and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard,and naked steel.

It was very cold".

" It is always cold on the wall."

"You think so?"

"I know so,my lady."

"Then you know nothing,Jon Snow," she whispered(ADWD,Jon,pg.59).

First we have this woman who normally doesn't feel cold saying "it was very cold".Only explanation is that the cold was unnatural.To add to that Jon is like ehh it's always cold up here.Mel is basically telling Jon no,it's not cold yet.You don't know squat.If you think this is cold,you don't know squat.

I'm reminded of Bran's vision of Jon,at the time he was seen by Bran in the cell growing cold and hard.The wall was "shining like a blue crystal".This i believe is a symbolic representation of "The cold" enveloping the wall and it is happening around the time of Jon is incapacitated.

So i believe this further points to "The cold" breaching the wall.

[nanother]

First we have this woman who normally doesn't feel cold saying "it was very cold".Only explanation is that the cold was unnatural.To add to that Jon is like ehh it's always cold up here.Mel is basically telling Jon no,it's not cold yet.You don't know squat.If you think this is cold,you don't know squat.

That's right, assuming they were indeed the daggers Mel saw (not sure if there's any reason to doubt, but gotta be careful with her) that pretty much seals it. As for the difference between cold and Cold, that's also what Val tells him. Can't remember exactly where it is, but at some point Val says the air is sweet to which Jon says 'all I can taste is cold'; and Val's like 'omg you've no clue what cold is'.

Might be before she leaves to get Tormund.

[wolfmaid7]

That's right, assuming they were indeed the daggers Mel saw (not sure if there's any reason to doubt, but gotta be careful with her) that pretty much seals it. As for the difference between cold and Cold, that's also what Val tells him. Can't remember exactly where it is, but at some point Val says the air is sweet to which Jon says 'all I can taste is cold'; and Val's like 'omg you've no clue what cold is'.

Might be before she leaves to get Tormund.

I seem to recall that particular text,but i'll look for it later on. Why i think the "daggers in the dark" are important has to do with pinning down a time frame.We know Mel has a problem in interpretation,so "the cold" breaching may not be at Jon's stabbing for all we know,or it maybe at another incident where there are daggers.Hell what she saw may not even be at the wall at all. But what is important is the distinction between "the cold" and normal old cold.

I found this other piece that is interesting and adds more credibility:

Snowflakes swirled form the dark a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them,the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced up a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold. Beneath a grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves.Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in,impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out"(ADWD,Mel,pg.408).

The highlighted red part is telling;here we have the link between "the cold" and the Wights,which is where the relationship is,not "the cold" and White Walkers.Here we have it again, a cold so fierce it affected even Mel-not cold,IMPOSSIBLY COLD.

This gave me a thought,if Mel's interpretation of events are correct,and our deductive skills are correct that puts "the cold" breaching the wall at or around Jon's stabbing.So if i were Mel standing in the shield hall,putting two and two together i may want to run and start having my Queen's men light a shit load of fire on the wall to keep the darkness at bay.Which is what i'd do,she can actually probably change things if she acts smartly and quickly.Live to fight another day.

I highlighted the opening in blue because gosh that imagery of snowflakes dancing with ashes is so chilling.

[nanother]

That vision is again confirmed by Tormund when he talks about the white mists and being so cold that the fires go out.

I found the Val conversation, it's indeed when she leaves to find Tormund:

When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood,
the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis
had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon
turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath.
“The air tastes sweet.”

“My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.”

“Cold?” Val laughed lightly. “No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others
come …”

Hmm, she does equate The Cold with the coming of Others (unless she means some other Others than the popsicles)

[wolfmaid7]

That vision is again confirmed by Tormund when he talks about the white mists and being so cold that the fires go out.

I found the Val conversation, it's indeed when she leaves to find Tormund:

When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood,

the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis

had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon

turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath.

“The air tastes sweet.”

“My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.”

“Cold?” Val laughed lightly. “No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others

come …”

Hmm, she does equate The Cold with the coming of Others (unless she means some other Others than the popsicles)

I see you did the same thing that the characters do and we as readers do as well.Val is right and wrong at the same time. This is what i'm asking my fellow readers to pay close attention to,i believe it is brilliant that GRRM did this, but it is also intentional.Having the populous lump the wights and Popsicles under one umbrella termed "Others" is a major problem for the people in Westeros and at times for us the readers because what we, like they have done is link two things together that have nothing to do with each other at all.

Hence the reason i make it a point to differentiate when i speak of Pospsicles/WWs and Wights.Using the term "Others" to refer to Wights and Popsicles is an intentional device used by GRRM to show a common human characteristic that's as old as our history.Classifying the unknown and the strange as not like us and if they are not like us they must then be the enemy.

Look at our own history and the War on Terror; how many ,many people in America today lump people who are Muslim and or Arab as Terrorists just because they are Muslims and/or Arab.The people in Westeros and we as readers have done the very same thing.

It takes objectivity to see that everything Val and Tourmond and Sam etc spoke of ;it being so cold you can't breathe/chest hurts,fires going out a cold wind/mists that rises .These conditions that can be documented occur when Wights are near not Popsicles.When Popsicles come it does get cold very cold,but its not a disabling cold and the wind dies or stops.Not to mention the Fires don't just go out in their presence,they have to by an action put it out.

These are the details that GRRM have placed for us,and it is in being objective and not caught up in the emotion of the characters- who were written to fear these things with thousands of years of myth hanging over them- that we see that the classification of Wights and Walkers as "Others" is a huge problem because it leads to faulty association.

A note: When the Wights are around You can fight its effect if its in a 2-1 ratio with fire. I'm speaking of in proportion i.e one Wight near a huge fire won't have an effect,but a horde would snuff it out.Hence the reason the NW on the fist was able to keep them at bay for a while with the flames until more and more and more of them started coming.To much Cold in relation to the flames.

[alienarea]

That vision is again confirmed by Tormund when he talks about the white mists and being so cold that the fires go out.

I found the Val conversation, it's indeed when she leaves to find Tormund:

When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood,

the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis

had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon

turned Vals honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath.

The air tastes sweet.

My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.

Cold? Val laughed lightly. No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others

come

Hmm, she does equate The Cold with the coming of Others (unless she means some other Others than the popsicles)

So Val knows what is like when the Others come.

Unless there are other Others, which may or may not be the Others from LOST. :dunno:

What indicates to me that the Cold, which may or may not be identical to the Others, reaches the wall when Jon gets stabbed, are the words in italics: He only felt the cold.

Apart from the question whether this is the cold originating from Winterfell because of a missing Stark, I have cool (pun) theory:

The cold reached the wall before Jon got stabbed and transformed him due to his snowflake communion. When this started (blue eyes?) Bowen and co stab him - because he is becoming an Other.

[wolfmaid7]

So Val knows what is like when the Others come.

Unless there are other Others, which may or may not be the Others from LOST. :dunno:

What indicates to me that the Cold, which may or may not be identical to the Others, reaches the wall when Jon gets stabbed, are the words in italics: He only felt the cold.

Apart from the question whether this is the cold originating from Winterfell because of a missing Stark, I have cool (pun) theory:

The cold reached the wall before Jon got stabbed and transformed him due to his snowflake communion. When this started (blue eyes?) Bowen and co stab him - because he is becoming an Other.

Again its up to us to differentiate, to Val and everyone else Others are Wights and WWs.There is nobody else from lost or lurking hidded.They are incorrectly associating Wights and WWs with each other.We have the luxury of looking at the information objectively. It tells us in fact when the Wights come the conditions are different to when Popsicles show up and " the cold" is linked more to the Wights and not with Popsicles.

So it isn't a matter of may or may not at this point.its what the text tells/shows us outright and what it infers.

Jon's body in my opinion will be altered, not who he is as Jon because his body would have been touched by The Cold" because of his possible"blood" I think he'll be different.

[nanother]

I see you did the same thing that the characters do and we as readers do as well.Val is right and wrong at the same time. This is what i'm asking my fellow readers to pay close attention to,i believe it is brilliant that GRRM did this, but it is also intentional.Having the populous lump the wights and Popsicles under one umbrella termed "Others" is a major problem for the people in Westeros and at times for us the readers because what we, like they have done is link two things together that have nothing to do with each other at all.

OK, I was trying to avoid going to deep into the core theory because I don't really have the time/energy, so forgive me if some of the following is not very well thought out. I like your theory (in regards to the popsicles somehow being maintainers of natural balance), I really do. But it also feels wrong in various ways. It's mostly gut feelings at this point and based on my pre-existing impressions of the text. One thing I already mentioned is re-animating dead corpses as part of the natural balance: I can't wrap my head around that concept. So will now try to pin down the others (no pun).

Disclaimer: I'm going entirely from memory, and I still had no time to consider all evidence for and against this theory in-depth. That said, so far I see no solid evidence that the word 'Others' is used for anything but popsicles. If it's used to denote a wight attack, it's because it's firmly believed that the 'Others' are behind it. They could be right or wrong like you think they are. But the use of the word always means that popsicles are (thought to be) involved.

Now, are they wrong? Val believes that popsicles are behind The Cold. So does Coldhands. They both live (or unlive) beyound the Wall and are likely to have more knowledge about it than they share with us readers. So as long as obviously proven otherwise, I'll consider them more reliable sources than your speculations :P Ditto with Osha& co - their conversation suggests that the White Walkers are at the root of the problem. They all do clearly differentiate between WW/wights, although NOT between WW/The Cold - that part is pretty obscure.

Unusual cold (that often/usually/?always? also induces fear) is associated with popsicles as well as wights (although Grenn's torch did not go out, but Sam does say something along the lines of the piss being frozen in his bladders). IIRC Will also uses the phrase 'it was very cold' in the Prologue, the same as Mel. So it has to be either The Cold, the same as for wights, or yet another kind of Cold, which would seem silly.

While I agree that it's The Cold that makes the wights, the relationship between them and the popsicles is still unclear to me. These three things seem to act together in a somewhat purposeful and organised way e.g:

• the apparent 'herding' of wildlings
• the 'minefield' around the CotF cave
• some of the wights going for Coldhands even though he's just as dead as they are
• them two wights making their way back to CB and conveniently waiting to be found

So who or what is doing the organising and to what end? Either one of the three, or there's something or someone above all three. The wights are safe to rule out. The popsicles are human shaped sapient beings, good (and obvious) candidates for being in control. The Cold is a mysterious entity or phenomenon, anything goes as far as it's concerned.

• it tends to come with a feeling of dread
• it comes and goes, tends to be attracted to humans and possibly other living beings
• it can possibly intensify and whithdraw as convenient. One extreme being killing the wildling far-eye perched on her tree, the other possibly the warm period that Jon called 'spirit summer' and at some point he mentioned it being 'unnaturally warm', and which ended as soon as the wights were safely on the other side of the Wall. I'd have to go through all relevant passages to be sure.
• either there's something/someone keeping it in check, or it has it's own mind and keeps itself in check: it follows Tormund& co, and turns up every now and then, snuffing out a few fires and killing a few people, but it isn't at the same level as what we saw in the Prologue.

So where are the popsicles during all this? Let's assume that they follow The Cold collecting re-animated bodies. Dispose of them how? We know one super-efficient way of doing that: setting them on fire. How are the ice dudes achieving it? If The Cold creates wights and popsicles are also creatures of Cold what initiated the need for balancing? Seems like an encompassing entity (of Cold) is implied that needs to be balanced within itself. How did the natural process of balancing end up involving human shaped creatures with swords and a language?

Head... hurts...

As for the popsicles never being there when the wights show up, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Meaning, even if we don't see the popsicles when The Cold and the wights are around, in theory they could be nearby but out of sight. So really, this doesn't make sense to me so far. But will have to go through all the relevant stuff anyway eventually, so I'll see if that changes anything.

[wolfmaid7]

OK, I was trying to avoid going to deep into the core theory because I don't really have the time/energy, so forgive me if some of the following is not very well thought out. I like your theory (in regards to the popsicles somehow being maintainers of natural balance), I really do. But it also feels wrong in various ways. It's mostly gut feelings at this point and based on my pre-existing impressions of the text. One thing I already mentioned is re-animating dead corpses as part of the natural balance: I can't wrap my head around that concept. So will now try to pin down the others (no pun).

Disclaimer: I'm going entirely from memory, and I still had no time to consider all evidence for and against this theory in-depth. That said, so far I see no solid evidence that the word 'Others' is used for anything but popsicles. If it's used to denote a wight attack, it's because it's firmly believed that the 'Others' are behind it. They could be right or wrong like you think they are. But the use of the word always means that popsicles are (thought to be) involved.

Now, are they wrong? Val believes that popsicles are behind The Cold. So does Coldhands. They both live (or unlive) beyound the Wall and are likely to have more knowledge about it than they share with us readers. So as long as obviously proven otherwise, I'll consider them more reliable sources than your speculations :P Ditto with Osha& co - their conversation suggests that the White Walkers are at the root of the problem. They all do clearly differentiate between WW/wights, although NOT between WW/The Cold - that part is pretty obscure.

Unusual cold (that often/usually/?always? also induces fear) is associated with popsicles as well as wights (although Grenn's torch did not go out, but Sam does say something along the lines of the piss being frozen in his bladders). IIRC Will also uses the phrase 'it was very cold' in the Prologue, the same as Mel. So it has to be either The Cold, the same as for wights, or yet another kind of Cold, which would seem silly.

While I agree that it's The Cold that makes the wights, the relationship between them and the popsicles is still unclear to me. These three things seem to act together in a somewhat purposeful and organised way e.g:

• the apparent 'herding' of wildlings
• the 'minefield' around the CotF cave
• some of the wights going for Coldhands even though he's just as dead as they are
• them two wights making their way back to CB and conveniently waiting to be found

So who or what is doing the organising and to what end? Either one of the three, or there's something or someone above all three. The wights are safe to rule out. The popsicles are human shaped sapient beings, good (and obvious) candidates for being in control. The Cold is a mysterious entity or phenomenon, anything goes as far as it's concerned.

• it tends to come with a feeling of dread
• it comes and goes, tends to be attracted to humans and possibly other living beings
• it can possibly intensify and whithdraw as convenient. One extreme being killing the wildling far-eye perched on her tree, the other possibly the warm period that Jon called 'spirit summer' and at some point he mentioned it being 'unnaturally warm', and which ended as soon as the wights were safely on the other side of the Wall. I'd have to go through all relevant passages to be sure.
• either there's something/someone keeping it in check, or it has it's own mind and keeps itself in check: it follows Tormund& co, and turns up every now and then, snuffing out a few fires and killing a few people, but it isn't at the same level as what we saw in the Prologue.

So where are the popsicles during all this? Let's assume that they follow The Cold collecting re-animated bodies. Dispose of them how? We know one super-efficient way of doing that: setting them on fire. How are the ice dudes achieving it? If The Cold creates wights and popsicles are also creatures of Cold what initiated the need for balancing? Seems like an encompassing entity (of Cold) is implied that needs to be balanced within itself. How did the natural process of balancing end up involving human shaped creatures with swords and a language?

Head... hurts...

As for the popsicles never being there when the wights show up, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Meaning, even if we don't see the popsicles when The Cold and the wights are around, in theory they could be nearby but out of sight. So really, this doesn't make sense to me so far. But will have to go through all the relevant stuff anyway eventually, so I'll see if that changes anything.

Sadly,feelings gut or otherwise does not play into this as much as people may want it to it really doesn't. You never go wrong if your premise is built on text. There are things that i want to see happen (feelings wise) that will not happen because the text disproves it and superimposing wants and desires cloudy things up.

I'm analytical by nature its my job to look for patterns,analyse data and interpret based on evidence.So altering things to suit a premise is not in my nature.That type of crap in my line of work can get people killed.I say this with a bucket load of humility you have to get up very early to get me critically thinking wise.

So lets get down to what you're getting at, needless to say i disagree with you because you lack evidence and you have not in anything you've said or shown indicated that what i've textually shown is wrong :cool4: . You have a problem with the raising of Wights as natural.So i'll try to explain what the environment and all the info about the land and the people in the land tells us.The raising of the Wights is a response of nature to:

1. Deal with an environment where the native inhabitants of the land usually live for hundreds and hundreds of years.The introduction of man into the environment is what corrupted the system and what was natural and balanced adapted to a changed environment that now had an ubber species at the top (man). 'The cold" would have taken away by nature those dying and dead from the land and in an environment where the inhabitants were peaceful by nature no harm no foul, process smooth.Man by nature is not like the COTF they are violent and bloodthirsty so their Wights...surprise surprise are bloodthirsty and violent.

a. Popsicles way back in the day pre man would not have had such a headache dealing with getting rid of them.Which is what they are suppose to do. A few dead COTF here,a couple of Giants there no biggy for 2 or 4 Popsicles.Imagine you show up for your cyclical duty and there are now THOUSANDS of Wights,shit would get out of hand for sure.

2. The other alternative is that "the cold" came into being after man entered the environment and it is a response to deal with their numbers by culling them every so X amount of years.

Now to you point about the term Others and its use exclusively for Popsicles I have to disagree with you again.In fact you prove my point the belief that Pospicles is behind them is what fuels the term,it is the association of Popsicles and Wights that is at the crux of the problem and textually speaking......They are wrong.What they believe or don't believe should be considered in relation to how they react or relay.Not in terms of us the readers we have been given the info to look at objectively whereas they can't and understandably so.Their belief is emboldened with stories that popsicles is responsible whoever all the information presented to us proves that they are wrong.

When relating the info to others,i'm sorry that distinction is not made,it is as usual umbrellaed in that term "Others". Its the same when blowing the horn umbrelled under the term "Others".

Stories told to Jon by Old Nan about the Giants and the Wildlings are they right?

onto your third point, there has not been any Wight attack in which Popsicles was seen leading or otherwise orchestrating.

I have a question,if it is common knowledge to the characters,that this is a certainty then what's the harm in showing what is supposedly common knowledge. There's no harm in that,everyone knows Popsicles is responsible for them so hey lets show that.We as readers know for sureeeeee that Popsicles led them to the horror that we see them doing.Why have them absent from not one or two but ALL attacks.Its ridiculous it doesn't make sense logically at all.The argument that them not being present, doesn't mean they aren't present....Nanother really ???

I saw you brought up something about the cold inducing fear, i have to disagree with you.It was normal fear under the condition of seeing the boogie man spoken of in tales.If it were me i'd probably doing more than peeing to be honest.So the fear was normal in both circumstances.I read that episode with Sam in ASOS,the WW's usually emit a "bitter cold" that which i stated before,much the same as they did in AGOT prologue.Sam use of his bladder freezing shut was fear.I was so scared i couldn't pee.

The Cold is more associated with the Wights,but it is clear that it doesn't necessarily need bodies,plain adaptation is at work.Mel is pretty explanatory,the text backs that up the phrase connotation and what happened is telling.The Cold is the same

You asked who is organizing the Wights it is clear,The Cold is doing that.If we want to argue is " the cold" sentient or not we can sure argue that,but its clear the WW's are not behind it. I personally believe it is sentient and capable of adapting to make itself sufficient which is what i believe has occurred with the use of dead bodies.

Your last Qs:

1. What initiated the need for balance? The introduction of an evasive species into the system(man)

2. How do they dispose of or what does Popsicles do with the bodies? Whatever they did last time to the thousands and thousands of dead that were raised then.I have a hypothesis though and its a real sick one.

Normally creatures that are Vegetarian have flat teeth like the Giants.However,the COTF have pointy teeth indicating that they are meat eaters.We have that story of Gendel's children being always hungry.We also know of those cave system beyond the Wall.I say Popsicles are feeding the dead to them.

Other than that we have to wait till the next few books to find out where the dead goes because with respect to that,i got nothing until new info is revealed.

[nanother]

Sadly,feelings gut or otherwise does not play into this as much as people may want it to it really doesn't. You never go wrong if your premise is built on text. There are things that i want to see happen (feelings wise) that will not happen because the text disproves it and superimposing wants and desires cloudy things up.

I'm analytical by nature its my job to look for patterns,analyse data and interpret based on evidence.So altering things to suit a premise is not in my nature.That type of crap in my line of work can get people killed.I say this with a bucket load of humility you have to get up very early to get me critically thinking wise

Sorry for getting hung op on an seemingly irrelevant part of your post, but this really ticked me off. As I repeatedly said, I don't have the time and energy to go over the evidence in-depth. I offered what little I could in good faith, because I really do like your theory and I consider a good debate as a way to gain better understanding and I was assuming you do the same. I'm not trying to 'get you', I'm trying to help you pin down weak points in your theory so that they can be made stronger.

But if you want to turn this into a show of intellectual superiority, I'll say this: I have a fairly strong background in research, critical thinking and evaluating data myself. Lately my ability to think clearly and present logical arguments is severely impaired* which irks me to no end and makes it very hard to be confident in my assessments, but I also find that I still have some pretty powerful and reliable mental habits in place that work without me even noticing. Thus, if your theory causes my mental alarm bells to go off (which is what I mean by 'gut feelings') that very likely indicates that parts of it are indeed problematic, even if I struggle to identify them.

So don't you give me this condescending bullshit (which is how this comes across despite your claims of humility). Either you take my offered thoughts for what they are, or I'm done with this discussion. I'll still keep re-evaluating your theory as I come across more evidence, but probably will do so privately.

*(due to some mental/physical illness that doctors are investigating and supposedly treating, but it's only getting worse and worse over the years; I was reluctant to share this bit because it's not really anyone's business, but just in case you feel the need to press on about this issue: DON'T. Please.)

[wolfmaid7]

Sorry for getting hung op on an seemingly irrelevant part of your post, but this really ticked me off. As I repeatedly said, I don't have the time and energy to go over the evidence in-depth. I offered what little I could in good faith, because I really do like your theory and I consider a good debate as a way to gain better understanding and I was assuming you do the same. I'm not trying to 'get you', I'm trying to help you pin down weak points in your theory so that they can be made stronger.

But if you want to turn this into a show of intellectual superiority, I'll say this: I have a fairly strong background in research, critical thinking and evaluating data myself. Lately my ability to think clearly and present logical arguments is severely impaired* which irks me to no end and makes it very hard to be confident in my assessments, but I also find that I still have some pretty powerful and reliable mental habits in place that work without me even noticing. Thus, if your theory causes my mental alarm bells to go off (which is what I mean by 'gut feelings') that very likely indicates that parts of it are indeed problematic, even if I struggle to identify them.

So don't you give me this condescending bullshit (which is how this comes across despite your claims of humility). Either you take my offered thoughts for what they are, or I'm done with this discussion. I'll still keep re-evaluating your theory as I come across more evidence, but probably will do so privately.

*(due to some mental/physical illness that doctors are investigating and supposedly treating, but it's only getting worse and worse over the years; I was reluctant to share this bit because it's not really anyone's business, but just in case you feel the need to press on about this issue: DON'T. Please.)

I really have to work on sarcasm...NanOther i wasn't trying to ding you in anyway. Oh my gosh,now i feel like a douch because i really was attempting sarcasm and i wasn't saying anything intentionally negative. I welcome everything you have to say honestly i do. I appreciate every view point you've given, and hope you accept my apology because i really truly didn't mean anything seriously negative about that comment.

[nanother]

Oh, I see, thanks for that! Apology accepted. I guess it just hit a very sore spot, which you had no way of knowing...

Anyway, I know it's hard to get across sarcasm in writing, so no hard feelings about that - you could probably raise the Wall to double height with all my failed attempts at it :p

[wolfmaid7]

Oh, I see, thanks for that! Apology accepted. I guess it just hit a very sore spot, which you had no way of knowing...

Anyway, I know it's hard to get across sarcasm in writing, so no hard feelings about that - you could probably raise the Wall to double height with all my failed attempts at it :P

Hehehe i know,i think i read somewhere that there is a sarcasm font,but i don't know i think that was a joke. :dunno:

But i understand gut feelings,it is my gut feeling that the children are eating the Wights,and that Popsicles is feeding them.

[nanother]

Yummy!

...

Oh, wait :ack: :stillsick:

So was Meera overly optimistic when she thought the meat they eat was from rats? Poor Bran.

That said, Summer and his new pack do feed on wights, which I found surprising at first, and so do the ravens (the ones belonging to BR anyway), so why not the CotF, I guess :stillsick:

[wolfmaid7]

Yummy!

...

Oh, wait :ack: :stillsick:

So was Meera overly optimistic when she thought the meat they eat was from rats? Poor Bran.

That said, Summer and his new pack do feed on wights, which I found surprising at first, and so do the ravens (the ones belonging to BR anyway), so why not the CotF, I guess :stillsick:

That Summer and the raven also helped my hypothesis though its a weak one. DWs,and Ravens as you stated all are considered part of what i called Old races. So maybe its some type of feast for them. That's kind of a weird ability to have,to feast on the nasties when nothing else would.I mean that would be downright macabre,it a fine way to deal with all those bodies.

We've seen everything in this book,why not ritualistic cannibalism .Eeeee I got chills

[alienarea]

wolfmaid7, sometimes I'm in a silly mood and have to post things not meant to be taken serious. I end those silly things with :dunno:

But the part after this was serious: Have we, here or in Heresy, considered that Jon gets stabbed because he is transforming into a White Walker?

[this is of course related to my White Walkers are Ghosts in the Snow comment I drop now and then, redriver's theory of the snowstorm originating from Winterfell, the idea by the poster I can't recall that the White Walkers track Monster, and my suggestion that the storm from Winterfell and the White Wslkers both reach the wall around the time Jon gets stabbed ...]

[wolfmaid7]

wolfmaid7, sometimes I'm in a silly mood and have to post things not meant to be taken serious. I end those silly things with :dunno:

But the part after this was serious: Have we, here or in Heresy, considered that Jon gets stabbed because he is transforming into a White Walker?

[this is of course related to my White Walkers are Ghosts in the Snow comment I drop now and then, redriver's theory of the snowstorm originating from Winterfell, the idea by the poster I can't recall that the White Walkers track Monster, and my suggestion that the storm from Winterfell and the White Wslkers both reach the wall around the time Jon gets stabbed ...]

In all seriousness and honesty Alienarea, i sooooo believe that to be the case ,i'm afraid to touch that thought with a ten foot poll.That is the basis for my FrozenFire theory,Jon's dream about him being on the Wall armored in black ice sounds too much like the White Walkers armor, but black.A couple of small little hints have me thinking that will be his transformation.

I think because of his possible Targ blood and the fact that he will be touched by "the cold" means he WILL BE frozen fire when he comes back;something like an evolved White Walker.However, i believe he will have his mind intact but with an intimate understanding of "the cold" like no one will ever have .It's all circumstantial for sure, but that i think is even too much Heresey for Heresy and i stay clear from that until i have rock solid evidence.

But as sure as the sun rises and sets Jon is going to get "touched".

[alienarea]

In all seriousness and honesty Alienarea, i sooooo believe that to be the case ,i'm afraid to touch that thought with a ten foot poll.That is the basis for my FrozenFire theory,Jon's dream about him being on the Wall armored in black ice sounds too much like the White Walkers armor, but black.A couple of small little hints have me thinking that will be his transformation.

I think because of his possible Targ blood and the fact that he will be touched by "the cold" means he WILL BE frozen fire when he comes back;something like an evolved White Walker.However, i believe he will have his mind intact but with an intimate understanding of "the cold" like no one will ever have .It's all circumstantial for sure, but that i think is even too much Heresey for Heresy and i stay clear from that until i have rock solid evidence.

But as sure as the sun rises and sets Jon is going to get "touched".

Count me in.

Except for the Targaryen blood.

[wolfmaid7]

Count me in.

Except for the Targaryen blood.

Lol...The bit of foreshadowing and some circumstances that have happen and set into motion tells me Jon with Ser Cackles, Ser Crackles and the rest of the Snowflake posse are going to be part of what saves this realm.However he will be villianized by those who wouldn't know what he did. His name will be a cursed name and men shall call him traitor.never knowing truly what him and the WWs did to save the realm.

[Beathag]

Well. It's a theory.

I am waiting for an explanation of Bran's flight in Game, when he looks into the Heart of Winter and screams. Does that bode anything "good?"

Winter/The God That Cannot be Named must have something in its/his bag of tricks. How can Martin come up with something other than the Others as the evil this late in the story line?