The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

[#Fire and Blood]

Has anybody asked about the darkness that is also associated with the Cold, Others, Wights, etc.? I believe it is also mentioned that they are not sure if the Others bring the darkness with them or it is dark when they show up. How does that come into play with the Cold theory?

[wolfmaid7]

I've only read to page 2 of this thread but I want to go ahead and post before I forget what I was thinking (it just happened and I had to reread page 1....)

I'm totally on board with the "the cold is an entity" idea. I've never felt convinced that "A Song of Ice and Fire" pertains to the characters and whatever traits they embody. I think the song is on a much larger scale of things, and it's all about balance. I think man was what threw everything out of balance. There was cold, and there was warmth. There were creatures on both sides of this balance (white walkers, dragons) and those that thrived on the balance of the two elements (CotF). It's my theory that man was the virus that tipped the scales and threw everything out of alignment (seasons). Westeros now suffers from fevers and chills, and the wights are a by product of an out of balance cold...or maybe an "unchallenged" cold. I see the WW, CotF and dragons as types of faerie races, each guardians of their respective elements. Man "tamed" and corrupted dragons using sorceries and dark magic, ultimately bringing about the doom of Valyria when they threw the balance there out of whack. When they moved on to Westeros, they fought tCotF and disturbed the earth when as a result the children called down the Hammer. They encountered the cold and built the wall, throwing the cold out of balance north of the wall, where it grows unchecked...and so at some point it (the cold) will again try to spill over because it has grown in strength and there is no opposing force (fire faeries ie dragons) During the LN the children allied with men and chose to try to contain the threat by means of a barrier. I see wights as a kind of "Orc race", an unnatural melding of man and cold that has no place in the World of ice and fire. They can be related to the dead white cells that are a by product of the body (westeros) fighting the infection (the growing cold). The pus of the world, if you will. A good hot fever is the best means of fighting an infection, but we know dragons native to Westeros went extinct long before they did in essos. The immune system of Westeros is failing. Man is AIDS.

I work in the medical field. Obviously.

Also i suck at remembering the sequence of events for this series and my only knowledge of the pre ASOIAF novellas is second hand since I can't find the damn things.

I like very much how you characterized man as a virus,something that i repeatedly stated myself and i'm glad someone else made that connection. Leaf's conversation with Bran is very telling and it speaks volumes of how balance is integral to the ecosystem that the native inhabitants have with each other." The Gods gave us few numbers but long years less we overrun the world like deer with no Lions to hunt" coupled with her other statement of the giants being their "Brothers and Bane' ( Quotes from ADWD,Bran 2) are quotes that strengthen this concept of balance and the Old races understood this. The culture of man especially in this medieval society is one of indiscriminate violence and sexual promiscuity much like a virus .

They didn't acclimate to the land not fully they bent nature to suit them and nature always seeks to find a balance ergo "The Cold".which i believe is the a badass equalizer. I agree with you that Man through the balance. However,i believe The Wall is a combination of COTF ,WW, and sympathetic human input; it was the only way to keep The Cold from heading South where the majority of the population would be.The Wall kept the cause of infection away from its primary host "Man".

I tried to read as much of this thread as possible, but didn't get through everything. If I'm repeating what someone else has already posted, I apologize.

I never made this connection before, but with the White Walkers being associated with cold and Westeros having abnormal seasons, maybe the Others bring winter when the seasons are too out of balance. I'm certain that there will be some kind of twist that expands the White Walkers beyond one dimensional villains, so playing an integral role in the ecosystem could be part of that. The text refers to the long summer that everyone's been enjoying (possibly one of the longest the older characters can remember?), so a White Walker invasion might fit with that timing. They may be a hive mind with a singular purpose, but I doubt it's something like "destroy all humans". They have to have some kind of goal that affects the larger picture in ways that our POVs don't recognize.

I see the White Walkers as being similar to when a sun goes super nova. If you're on a planet in that solar system, the sun exploding is the end, but that super nova blasts carbon, hydrogen, etc, out into the universe and can create new life. Depending on your perspective that can be beautiful or apocalyptic.

I disagree that they are the cause of the Winter,evidence points to them just being creatures of Cold that have a purpose but given the way the GRRM have crafted magic to be in this series the WWs don't have that type of clout.They are a hazard to the land during this period just as Yeti( if it's real) is a hazard when crossed but that's the extent of their power.I do believe they could be key in dealing with the Wights if the numbers were dozens,not the hundreds of thousands being risen, that's too much for them but they are driven to "clean up " after "The Cold" and that it seems is their nature so they won't stop throw their hands up in the air and give up.They'll keep showing up after The Wights/The Cold sweep through tracking them as they go.

Has anybody asked about the darkness that is also associated with the Cold, Others, Wights, etc.? I believe it is also mentioned that they are not sure if the Others bring the darkness with them or it is dark when they show up. How does that come into play with the Cold theory?

I did make not of that during my OP and what i've noticed is that the darkness seems to be a characteristic of the Wights.I also talked about the use of the term "Other" as a term which had synthesized two sets of creatures Wights and WWs that have nothing to do with each other. In the Annals the writer makes note of what happens when the Others come except what he describes based on the events now does not happen with WWs.It happens only with the Wights. My thinking based on human behavior and the evidence is that the word "Other" was based off of misidentification. People saw WWs and they saw Wights and assumed that the WWs and the Wights were connected.

[wolfmaid7]

The Cold Part 2

First to reiterate the theory of an entity that we have coined "the cold" as the true culprit behind what is raising the Wights and that the White Walkers are not responsible for this.A reminder of the texts:

"That won't help you none when the White cold comes,Gilly had spoken of the White cold as well"(Sam.asos,pg.445).

"He gives the boys to the gods.Come the White cold,he does"(ACOK,pg.370).

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

Snowflakes swirled form the dark a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them,the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced up a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold. Beneath a grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves.Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in,impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out"(ADWD,Mel,pg.408).

A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up how do you fights a mist crow? Shadows with teeth air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest you do not know, you cannot know can your sword cut cold?( ADWD,Jon Chp 58).

What's cool about the last quote especially, is the answer to who/what controls the dead is clearly expressed.All this is already expressed in the OP but i feel restating some of the points on "the cold" will be made clear with this comparison.

The Sorrows

The Shy Maid moved through the fog like a blind man groping his way down an unfamiliar hall. Septa Lemore was praying. The mists muffled the sound of her voice, making it seem small and

hushed.

“I do not like this place,” Haldon Halfmaester muttered. “Frightened of a little fog?” mocked Tyrion, though in truth there was quite a lot of fog. At the prow of the Shy Maid, Young Griff stood with the third pole, to push them away from hazards as they loomed up through the mists.

“This is no common fog, Hugor Hill,” Ysilla insisted. “It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it......There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water.”

This was a bad place, rank with despair and death. Ysilla is not wrong. This fog is not natural. Something foul grew in the waters here, and festered in the air.“You should not make mock,” warned Ysilla. “The whispering dead hate the warm and quick and ever seek for more damned souls to join them.”

“The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin’s day,” said Yandry. “Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave.”

“The dead do not rise,(how wrong is he?)” insisted Haldon Halfmaester, “and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place.

“Aye, I’ve heard that too,” said Duck, “but there’s another tale I like better. The one that says he’s not like t’other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice.” (does this story kind of sound familiar)

Stone eyes are blind eyes, thought Tyrion. The mortal form of greyscale began in the extremities, he knew: a tingling in a fingertip, a toenail turning black, a loss of feeling. As the numbness crept into the hand, or stole past the foot and up the leg, the flesh stiffened and grew cold and the victim’s skin took on a greyish hue, resembling stone.(Does this sound familiar).

Possible origin story

“The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill,” said Ysilla. “The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts.”

The happenings on the Sorrows are eerily similar to what is occuring beyond the Wall.An unatural mists,things that should be dead but aren't,extremities turning black,the cold environment.Given this can we truly say that the power to raise the dead lies with the WWs? I think not,but an even better question-maybe using the myths of the Sorrows as another linked event- What is the White Cold and where does it come from?

[Hupo Storm]

“Aye, I’ve heard that too,” said Duck, “but there’s another tale I like better. The one that says he’s

not like t’other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog

and kissed him with lips as cold as ice.”

I think the ice lady got the Night's king soul and put it in a statue,via some shadowbinding or something like that(crackpot detected).

So... we can be sure about some things surrounding Greyscale and Wights:

Both are related to water(fog)

Both hate the warm.

Both make the extremities black

Somewhere i read that the greyscale may be a wightification that embodies the water elemental rather than ice(i dont remember where,sorry!)-

The only major diference here is how greyscale acts,since it spread while the host is alive,while the Wightification needs a dead host.

What can we say about the Stonemen behavior?Do you think they have conscience or they are commanded by this Shrouded Lord?

Love this topic ^^

[wolfmaid7]

“Aye, I’ve heard that too,” said Duck, “but there’s another tale I like better. The one that says he’s

not like t’other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog

and kissed him with lips as cold as ice.”

I think the ice lady got the Night's king soul and put it in a statue,via some shadowbinding or something like that(crackpot detected).

So... we can be sure about some things surrounding Greyscale and Wights:

Both are related to water(fog)

Both hate the warm.

Both make the extremities black

Somewhere i read that the greyscale may be a wightification that embodies the water elemental rather than ice(i dont remember where,sorry!)-

The only major diference here is how greyscale acts,since it spread while the host is alive,while the Wightification needs a dead host.

What can we say about the Stonemen behavior?Do you think they have conscience or they are commanded by this Shrouded Lord?

Love this topic ^^

I think your spot on about a number of things (Great post by the way).The story of the Shrouded Lord and the Night's King seems to similar and i think its a different interpretation of the same story so yeah they may be related.Kind of like The flood Myth from the point of view other cultures and religions other than the Bible and Christianity.With this its the difficulty of separating the truth from the myth.

As to the Wightification i think its very possible and again we have the White cold present in both cases.

I can only theorize based off of the Nothern Wights,in the case of Small Paul,Othor and Jaffar that their memories are being accessed.Haldon was identifying the difference with the Stone men who start out as being clumsy,slow and mindless and when the Greyscale took over they become a bit more proficient.

I would like to mull over some more the myth behind the Shrouded Lord which may lead to a better understanding of the mist,which i think is associated to disembodiment.

[RiverratOH]

There were creatures on both sides of this balance (white walkers, dragons) and those that thrived on the balance of the two elements (CotF). It's my theory that man was the virus that tipped the scales and threw everything out of alignment (seasons). Westeros now suffers from fevers and chills, and the wights are a by product of an out of balance cold...or maybe an "unchallenged" cold. I see the WW, CotF and dragons as types of faerie races, each guardians of their respective elements. Man "tamed" and corrupted dragons using sorceries and dark magic, ultimately bringing about the doom of Valyria when they threw the balance there out of whack. When they moved on to Westeros, they fought tCotF and disturbed the earth when as a result the children called down the Hammer. They encountered the cold and built the wall, throwing the cold out of balance north of the wall, where it grows unchecked...and so at some point it (the cold) will again try to spill over because it has grown in strength and there is no opposing force (fire faeries ie dragons) During the LN the children allied with men and chose to try to contain the threat by means of a barrier. I see wights as a kind of "Orc race", an unnatural melding of man and cold that has no place in the World of ice and fire. They can be related to the dead white cells that are a by product of the body (westeros) fighting the infection (the growing cold). The pus of the world, if you will. A good hot fever is the best means of fighting an infection, but we know dragons native to Westeros went extinct long before they did in essos. The immune system of Westeros is failing. Man is AIDS.

The idea that balance is the key to this series is I think evidenced in Martin's earlier work, although someone who is better versed in could disagree.

Another poster mentioned 'sympathetic' humans, and I wonder if that's not another key. We tend to think of sympathetic humans being Dany - freeing slaves, attempting to rule justly, feeding the hungry, serving the poor, taking on the burdens of leadership. I wonder if Martin doesn't sympathy more in terms that you've described - interested in balance, working to promote homeostasis, conscious of just how virus-like we humans are. Thus humans who can warg (or who birth dragons) are the ones that will survive the coming turmoil.

We readers of fantasy spend a lot of energy figuring out who is good or evil, and we weep for Ned and Robb, and rejoice when Joffrey and Cersei get their comeuppance. I'm not sure that in the world of this series that Martin cares about these notions - instead, as you note, there is balance, and balance alone, and those who work to make it happen (the COTF, perhaps Arya as assassin, most of the wargs, Bloodraven) are the ones who will survive (or who understand that their presence is not critical to the world's turning)...

Thanks for a great post!

[wolfmaid7]

The idea that balance is the key to this series is I think evidenced in Martin's earlier work, although someone who is better versed in could disagree.

Another poster mentioned 'sympathetic' humans, and I wonder if that's not another key. We tend to think of sympathetic humans being Dany - freeing slaves, attempting to rule justly, feeding the hungry, serving the poor, taking on the burdens of leadership. I wonder if Martin doesn't sympathy more in terms that you've described - interested in balance, working to promote homeostasis, conscious of just how virus-like we humans are. Thus humans who can warg (or who birth dragons) are the ones that will survive the coming turmoil.

We readers of fantasy spend a lot of energy figuring out who is good or evil, and we weep for Ned and Robb, and rejoice when Joffrey and Cersei get their comeuppance. I'm not sure that in the world of this series that Martin cares about these notions - instead, as you note, there is balance, and balance alone, and those who work to make it happen (the COTF, perhaps Arya as assassin, most of the wargs, Bloodraven) are the ones who will survive (or who understand that their presence is not critical to the world's turning)...

Thanks for a great post!

Couldn't agree with this more, especially the point about sympathetic humans.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Could the Others be the old gods worshipped by the children of the forest carrying out the ancient prayers of the children invoked in a long forgotten war with the first men . As far as we know the Children didn't have any problem with the Others before the coming of the first men.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

There is a season for everything ,the children of the forest are the elementals of summer,when summer ended they would retreated to hidden caves. Winter was the time for the Others the elementals of winter .While in the summer things are born winter is death.

[wolfmaid7]

Could the Others be the old gods worshipped by the children of the forest carrying out the ancient prayers of the children invoked in a long forgotten war with the first men . As far as we know the Children didn't have any problem with the Others before the coming of the first men.

Some hold that belief to be true,that is to say that the WWs are the children's vengence. Given GRRM's little clues about the,there is more to them. I don't think they are flat characters .They evoke that field of being elementals whose purpose is to keep the balance during the Winter period.It's just that there are too many Wights and that is because of man.

There is a season for everything ,the children of the forest are the elementals of summer,when summer ended they would retreated to hidden caves. Winter was the time for the Others the elementals of winter .While in the summer things are born winter is death.

This is closer to it yes.

[dustbunny]

Okay, so... I think this might be my first post here, ever. I was just reading Heresy #6 and I had a brainwave, so I had to sign in and post it *somewhere*. I hope this is the right spot. I need to write this down before I forget it, so apologies if this is old news.

The discussion was about the (relative) humanity of the Others. Someone mentioned them tearing apart Gilly's garron (and presumably eating it). But I'm wondering if maybe it was pregnant. Maybe the wights can happily ride zombie horses, but the Others need (or desire) something else, and they needed the baby garron to Otherify. If they are human (or part human, or enchanted human) maybe the same process can make Other-garrons.

[Black Crow]

The garron was pulled apart by wights, not Craster's boys.

[wolfmaid7]

Okay, so... I think this might be my first post here, ever. I was just reading Heresy #6 and I had a brainwave, so I had to sign in and post it *somewhere*. I hope this is the right spot. I need to write this down before I forget it, so apologies if this is old news.

The discussion was about the (relative) humanity of the Others. Someone mentioned them tearing apart Gilly's garron (and presumably eating it). But I'm wondering if maybe it was pregnant. Maybe the wights can happily ride zombie horses, but the Others need (or desire) something else, and they needed the baby garron to Otherify. If they are human (or part human, or enchanted human) maybe the same process can make Other-garrons.

BC has the right of it, it was the Wights that attacked, there were no wws around. From the scene Gilly identified Small Paul as comming to take her babe.Misidentifiicstion on her part.

[Ghosts Lunch]

It is widely accepted that the White Walkers are evil ,a threat to the realm, responsible for raising the dead and will lead them to annihilate mankind. I will offer an alternative viewpoint of the role the WWs have/had play/ed. It is my belief that the WWs have been misunderstood and their true function lost in the memory of the long-night and in misconceptions ,which is based on fear. We can deny many things about Westros,but we can't deny that currently it is pre-science/reason civilization where fear rules.How less/more so was it during the long-night? Could the eye witness accounts and the Old Nan tales be unreliable because of only surface perceptions? I will show that the WWS are not and have never been responsible for raising the Wights,that power lays elsewhere;i will also show that it is this entity that has been driving wights to organize and attack humans.

Some really great points, I had never noticed the cold was exclusive to the Wights but not the White Walkers and thought provoking

That said, I would imagine the cold has something to do with the spell that animates the Wights, eg they would be herded by the WW's and the cold is something like a radio of Wi Fi signal through which the 'animation signal' is carried

WW obviously don't require any kind of "cold spell" because they are sentient creatures etc

[wolfmaid7]

Some really great points, I had never noticed the cold was exclusive to the Wights but not the White Walkers and thought provoking

That said, I would imagine the cold has something to do with the spell that animates the Wights, eg they would be herded by the WW's and the cold is something like a radio of Wi Fi signal through which the 'animation signal' is carried

WW obviously don't require any kind of "cold spell" because they are sentient creatures etc

That's it though everyone is assuming that some sort of spell is involved,but "the cold" is just a coined term for what i believe is a disembodied Skinchanger or something with that type of ability that entralls the dead. If we look at what happened to v6 after he was expelled from Thistle we see there is precedence for that.

He was borne on some cold wind(not suprisingly a cold wind that rises precedes the Wights because the wind is a great transport mechainism for it) and he carried forth inhabiting a varied amount of things on his way looking for his pack.He was in the earthworm,a flock of birds even the clouds and Summer and the Elk felt him as he passed.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Some really great points, I had never noticed the cold was exclusive to the Wights but not the White Walkers and thought provoking

That said, I would imagine the cold has something to do with the spell that animates the Wights, eg they would be herded by the WW's and the cold is something like a radio of Wi Fi signal through which the 'animation signal' is carried

WW obviously don't require any kind of "cold spell" because they are sentient creatures etc

Well, the cold is not exclusive to the wights. The Others , or White Walkers are cold and exude the cold also. I like to think of it as the Others amplify the Cold of winter/north.

The cold does have to be present for animation of the wights, and I like your idea of a cold radio/WiFi signal that extends whatever it is that livelies up the wights.

That gives me an idea...

Maybe the cold transmission from the Others is saying -

Hey, lively up yourself and don't say no

You gonna lively up yourself cause I said so

(You what you gonna do)

You rock so, you rock so, like you never did

before

You dip so, you dip so, dip through my door

You come so, you come so, oh yeah

You skank so, you skank so, be alive today

[wolfmaid7]

Well, the cold is not exclusive to the wights. The Others , or White Walkers are cold and exude the cold also. I like to think of it as the Others amplify the Cold of winter/north.

The cold does have to be present for animation of the wights, and I like your idea of a cold radio/WiFi signal that extends whatever it is that livelies up the wights.

That gives me an idea...

Maybe the cold transmission from the Others is saying -

Hey, lively up yourself and don't say no

You gonna lively up yourself cause I said so

(You what you gonna do)

You rock so, you rock so, like you never did

before

You dip so, you dip so, dip through my door

You come so, you come so, oh yeah

You skank so, you skank so, be alive today

I disagree again the WWs are creatures of Winter and emit localized cold like Mel emitting heat.So that's not an anomaly for them .The dead would rise no matter what as long as that "cold wind rises" and your dead that's it.

I would like to think if this was the wws doing GRRM would have stuck with ,the wws are back. Wouldn't that be all that needed to be said? This little interview especially in the begining hints at this force that is the cold wind experianced "only" around wights.Never in his interviews does he even say the wws are raising anyone...Its just the dead are coming back. It's a nice little clue in the annals

"Anyone that dies in battle against the Others must be burnt else the dead comes back as their thrall"...We know this to not be entirely true futhermore how does the wws bringing back the dead look to an onlooker whereby they can say for sure."Yep they are the oneds doing it"It is a big assumption.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c-ZxuWhhCw

[Lord of Nutella]

i have to apologize, because in some other thread i declared the theory of the WWs being not plainly evil as "nonsense" in some other thread, but what i read here is actually very well thought out. seems i should think more and talk less.

but i have a question. while in the books WW never appear together with wights, in the show at the end of season 2 two WWs lead the wights in their attack on the fist. sure, the books are the books and the show is the show, but if martin plans to reveal the WW as something else than evil leaders of undead hosts, why should he let the showmakers do that? we know that he does participate in the show.

[wolfmaid7]

i have to apologize, because in some other thread i declared the theory of the WWs being not plainly evil as "nonsense" in some other thread, but what i read here is actually very well thought out. seems i should think more and talk less.

but i have a question. while in the books WW never appear together with wights, in the show at the end of season 2 two WWs lead the wights in their attack on the fist. sure, the books are the books and the show is the show, but if martin plans to reveal the WW as something else than evil leaders of undead hosts, why should he let the showmakers do that? we know that he does participate in the show.

High Lord Nutella welcome and that is an excellent question to which i will say a couple of things.

1. Did we really see the WWs "lead" the attack on the Fist in the show? We see them acting rather passive with the wws and we see another scene where a Wight on its own looking rather savagely attack Sam and Ghost saves his bacon.The WW then looks Sam dead in the eye and leaves him alone.Then we see the Wall in the background as if they were heading there and as of 2 seasons later seem to have gotten lost.

I say that to show the subtly of the relationship and don't get me wrong i believe the wws can defintely lead the Wights that has always been their job to lead them away in order to keep the Wights population down. If Westeros was a body they's be White blood cells. Except there are two much humans and to little of them so they can't control the disease which is Wighted human beings.

2. My second point is GRRM has long said the show is the producers baby the books are his.They have the rights to do whatever they wish with the show and this came up when they killed the blood rider who Dany meets in the end of ADWD i think and GRRM pointed out he was important.They killend Grenn and Pyp and they are still alive in the books.So i will use this quote different roads one castle.I think they will continue to change the paths to make it fit a viewing audience but they''ll arrive at the same conclusion.

I mean are we to conclude that only Bran is a Warg because the producers sure left of Jon and Arya in that process a point i think is real important,so we can't be to accepting of the path they chose.I just look at it as entertainment and focus on what the books say and the context.

[Lord of Nutella]

Do you in this context view the transformation of crasters last child in s4 although as unimportant?