The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

[wolfmaid7]

Do you in this context view the transformation of crasters last child in s4 although as unimportant?

The thing with Craster's sons is a very heated debate on Heresy,i for one despite what the show depicted go by the book and what the producers themeselves said. So i do not believe that Craster's sons are becoming wws and this is the reason why.

Benoff and Weis in and interview( and if you go to the Heretic's link in my sig and click on the Craster debates link you'll see the interviews) stated that it was suggested in the books and they are 100% right Craster's wives suggested it. So what is canon is that Craster's wives said so. What is not canon is if they are right/telling the truth,they have no way of knowing that because none of them has seen that take place.

I think being good as GRRM is at realism and drawing from history,what the wives and Craster are engaging in is "Ritual exposure" made popular by the ancient Greeks and Romans.He leaves his chldren in the woods and walk away.He has never stayed to see if anyone picks up the babies nor have any of the women walked all the way to the woods and wait to see what's happening to the babes. So that is something yet to be validated by the books.

[wolfmaid7]

In the last two day the board has been busy with the leaked pages of an early draft of GRRM's story and though the story has gotten bigger and certain things altered the essence of the story has remained the same. With that said i am happy that theory per GRRM's draft is correct.

The White Walkers are not the ones raising the dead,they themselves are being raised by "The Others" who who seem to be something different and we have yet to see them.

I added the Leaked pages in the OP and i would ask to keep this rolling we pay attention to how "The Others" are said to travel among other things.

[wolfmaid7]

Hello guys,I am transferring my theory from the Dance section to the General.more traffic.And i think in light of the synopsis lots to talk about.

[minisam]

Ok i just got to the end of this rollercoaster and am i correct in saying... you have The Dead (wights) The White Walkers (popsicles) and The Others (cold, mist) and the others are raising both dead and white walker. Now my brain is officially blown.

Btw amazing thread by all contributors especially the op. Hooked me.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok i just got to the end of this rollercoaster and am i correct in saying... you have The Dead (wights) The White Walkers (popsicles) and The Others (cold, mist) and the others are raising both dead and white walker. Now my brain is officially blown.

Btw amazing thread by all contributors especially the op. Hooked me.

Lol.....Thanks very much for hanging in there. I know it was a lot to read.Ive tried over the past 2yrs to narrow it because of the layers i wanted to keep it as precise without it being "too" much.But you are on point. I will add that i think the term Others gives characters in text a visual,but i do think by the end of this the Others will be revealed to be another Greenseer type individual but one for the cold.

[wolfmaid7]

Do you in this context view the transformation of crasters last child in s4 although as unimportant?

There has been several debates over the Craster's sons=WWs angle.I do not and despite s4 still don't think Craster's sons becomes WWs.Bare with me a bit.

In Interviews after the episodes aired the producers had this to say:

The White Walkers are also covered in the “Oathkeeper.” For Weiss and Benioff, the final scene was a chance to explore the White Walkers without losing the mystery surrounding these characters that are mentioned throughout “Game of Thrones.” The final scene was not taken from the “Song of Ice and Fire” novels written by George R.R. Martin but Benioff says it was suggested in the books. The final scene has been highly speculated upon but HBO may have spoiled the surprise and revealed the White Walker that touches the baby to be the Night's King, a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Benioff elaborates, "Part of it was just something that we were always very curious about. The very first time we saw Craster leave a baby in Season 2, you're wondering what the h*** that's all about. You see the White Walker take it. Are the White Walkers going to eat the babies? Are they going to sacrifice them in some kind of ritual? What happens? We love the idea there was one last baby Craster had fathered before he died, and it's a moment that, while not in the books, is kind of suggested by the books and a moment that we thought would be really fun to illustrate in a horrifying way. And it was actually pretty horrifying."

Weiss and Benoiff in a lot of their capacity are readers. Interpreting and trying to discover some mysteries like the rest of us.While they know how the story ends there getting to maybe a bit different.In both these statements ,Weiss and Benioff stated that this was suggested in the books. And they are 100% right "Wife on the left" stated to Sam.

"The boys brothers," said the old woman on the left."Craster's sons.The White cold's rising out there,crow.I can feel it in my bones.These poor old bones don't lie.They'll be here soon,the sons(ASOS,Sam,pg.459).

Which then begs the question how does she know that? Did she see WWs picking up the babies and then observed the transformation after?

Remember what the White cold is? The Blizzard.Remember who shows up in the Blizzard........The Wights. Now take into consideration some concersations and incidences.

"That won't help you none when the white cold comes." Craster to Mormont.

"Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she'd told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods......

"I only thought . . . " You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that's why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to be wives (Sam ASOS).

Craster has been observing ritual exposure,when the blizzards come he goes out into the woods and leaves his babies.No waiting around to see what's picking them up for him or his wife.They see blue eyed white shadows among the White cold and call them gods.So now lets look at what these blue eyed white shdows could be.

" What gods?" Jon was remebering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep,nor men either,save Craster himself.

"The cold gods,"."The ones in the night"............

"What color are their eyes?" He asked her.

"Blue. As bright as blue stars,and as cold."

She has seen them(ACOK,Jon,pg.371)."Jon remebered Mormon't solar"

Prior to the events of the prologue no living person south of the Wall has seen a WW or a Wight.Jon's memory when Gilly describes the Cold gods go directly to the only point of reference he has.the Wights in Mormont's chamber.

"He's come for the babe," Gilly wept.He smells him.A babe fresh-born stinks of life.He's come for the lfe(ASOS,Sam,pg.645)

The above is Gilly's reaction when she saw the Wighted Small Paul.

"Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow,some wore brown,some were black and some were naked.Their flesh gone white as snow(ADWD,Prologue).

The above text is from V6 POV of the Wights in A dance with Dragons.

In sum the s4 "reveal" is a depiction of what Craster's wives said in the text.So based on that we must look at Craster's wives closely and they may absolutely believe that the blue eyed white shadows are their exposed sons come back for their brothers. The reality is the White shadows most likely are Wights.And lets say the babies don't first die from the exposure.It's possible the babies are being killed by the Wights.

Now seeing as the Wights are being driven and controlled by the "the cold greenseer" an arguement can be made maybe they are taking them somewhere else.That maybe true but i still think yeah those babies are dead.

So based on the text and what it tells us i would urge caution in believing that what was shown is a visual depiction of what is going on.

[Voice]

Well. I read it. And it still seems like you're operating under the bias that the white walkers are the good guys in all this. While I understand the sentiment, I think using that as a starting point is flawed. Those published as the "white walkers" and those written in the synopsis as "neverborn" are one and the same. They, and wights, are both raised by the inhuman others to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The white walkers are not good guys manipulated by the cold greenseer... they are agents of

The greatest danger of all

from the north

from the icy wastes beyond the Wall

Rather than created by my creator, your creator, or "our creator" they were created by:

half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others

We know they were created by them, as GRRM explicitly tells us it is they who

raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

So, with all that being said, I still very much admire your perspective on them. I don't like the use of Old Gods terminology (like greenseer, skinchanging, etc), but I do like the motive you have placed upon them: balance. I used to scoff at the idea, as I was superficially looking at Others as bad guys. But, I think rather than being "bad" they are simply "just." They are walking, talking, laughing, mocking, cold hard justice. They are what Stannis pretends to be. Stannis think it is justice that he sit the Iron Throne. The Others know Men have older crimes to atone for, and are seeing to it.

So, now that you know where I'm coming from (not that you don't know from Heresy already ;) )... I don't think white walkers, nor the Others, are "good," nor can they restore justice. They will not bring balance... They have been forged and sharpened into an extremist hatred and seek

to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

[A horsefaced girl]

"As i said above it seems most likely that Jon would be the next to wear the mantle of Winter/Nights King and i think how has already been put into the story."

You had me until this part, because I believe a red woman with hot lips is going to be kissing(or spilling her blood)Jon. haha

Also, I don't believe the Others are good, Old Nan said they were bad and I believe her. They eat babies.

[Modesty Lannister]

One cannot argue with a long-term obsession that leads OP to change words and wordings of their "quotes" to suit the said obsession. But it has been going on for too long.

[wolfmaid7]

One cannot argue with a long-term obsession that leads OP to change words and wordings of their "quotes" to suit the said obsession. But it has been going on for too long.

exactly which wording did I change. You are offering nothing except an old gripe Modesty and it is a shame. The 93 outline is spot on to what ive been saying.

The WWS have not been raising the WWS. Check

The only things capable of that are Greenseers because the power exhibited is no different from Skinchanging.

[wolfmaid7]

Well. I read it. And it still seems like you're operating under the bias that the white walkers are the good guys in all this. While I understand the sentiment, I think using that as a starting point is flawed. Those published as the "white walkers" and those written in the synopsis as "neverborn" are one and the same. They, and wights, are both raised by the inhuman others to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The white walkers are not good guys manipulated by the cold greenseer... they are agents of

The greatest danger of all

from the north

from the icy wastes beyond the Wall

Rather than created by my creator, your creator, or "our creator" they were created by:

half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others

We know they were created by them, as GRRM explicitly tells us it is they who

raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

So, with all that being said, I still very much admire your perspective on them. I don't like the use of Old Gods terminology (like greenseer, skinchanging, etc), but I do like the motive you have placed upon them: balance. I used to scoff at the idea, as I was superficially looking at Others as bad guys. But, I think rather than being "bad" they are simply "just." They are walking, talking, laughing, mocking, cold hard justice. They are what Stannis pretends to be. Stannis think it is justice that he sit the Iron Throne. The Others know Men have older crimes to atone for, and are seeing to it.

So, now that you know where I'm coming from (not that you don't know from Heresy already ;) )... I don't think white walkers, nor the Others, are "good," nor can they restore justice. They will not bring balance... They have been forged and sharpened into an extremist hatred and seek

to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

I'm really shocked that in all of that you come away with "I believe the wws are good which is NOT what im saying. Do I believe they have moral agency no I do not.

Do I believe the Greenseer behind them is corrupted and wants to raise Westeros to the ground yeah I do.

Are the WWs Others no they aren't you know that????

[wolfmaid7]

"As i said above it seems most likely that Jon would be the next to wear the mantle of Winter/Nights King and i think how has already been put into the story."

You had me until this part, because I believe a red woman with hot lips is going to be kissing(or spilling her blood)Jon. haha

Also, I don't believe the Others are good, Old Nan said they were bad and I believe her. They eat babies.

If you are speaking of the WWs I don't believe they are good or bad grey yes.

To date we have yet to see them collecting or eating babies.

As to Jon I don't think he is dead and in need of resurrection.

[Voice]

As to Jon I don't think he is dead and in need of resurrection.

Even with GRRM's "Oh you think he's dead, do you?"

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g'> http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g

[wolfmaid7]

Even with GRRM's "Oh you think he's dead, do you?"

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g'> http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g

VOTFM: Are you sure you are reading my words correctly?.......I DON'T think he is dead and therefore in NO need of ressurection.I just think he's in a coma.

Enlarge you phone screen lol.Cus you're misquoting what i'm saying.

YOu know the WWs aren't the Others,what are you talking about hombre? Your "Ancient Others" (See that Modesty Lannister? That's changing words and wordings) are just my Greenseer.

[Modesty Lannister]

exactly which wording did I change. You are offering nothing except an old gripe Modesty and it is a shame. The 93 outline is spot on to what ive been saying.

The WWS have not been raising the WWS. Check

The only things capable of that are Greenseers because the power exhibited is no different from Skinchanging.

Wight Walkers? Where are they in the text? Wight, with capital W? Where is it written? And reading quotes the way it suits you, not the way it's written. Nothing new. Old obsession. Too many iterations.

[wolfmaid7]

Wight Walkers? Where are they in the text? Wight, with capital W? Where is it written? And reading quotes the way it suits you, not the way it's written. Nothing new. Old obsession. Too many iterations.

This is a perfect example of you not reading properly and letting old gripes and the fact that i called you out for being disrespectful cloud your judgement.You have nothing to say.My quotes are spot on and you know what supports my theory....the 93 letter and analyzing.

Back to you not reading correctly.Go to the OP and at the bottom of the OP read that last line.Then i want you to show me what quotes "you feel" i have read in a way that suits me.Don't be shy i'm not going to bite.Then come back and apologize.If not, i'll really appreciate if you not post here unless you can objectvely go over the OP and have a conversation.

I really have no patience for this kind of thing.

[Voice]

VOTFM: Are you sure you are reading my words correctly?.......I DON'T think he is dead and therefore in NO need of ressurection.I just think he's in a coma.

Enlarge you phone screen lol.Cus you're misquoting what i'm saying.

YOu know the WWs aren't the Others,what are you talking about hombre? Your "Ancient Others" (See that Modesty Lannister? That's changing words and wordings) are just my Greenseer.

Lol my bad, indeed it was a small screen misread :)

[wolfmaid7]

Lol my bad, indeed it was a small screen misread :)

I know that,it catches me all the time. :cheers:

Also, i agree with you on the Others( To me Greenseers) raising the WWs in addition to the Wights. If GRRM stays true to that so be it. The reason why i am not going to chnage my initial felings about the WWs being like the COTF is because when this is all said and done i want to see how far or near my feelings were to the finish product.Or to be seen to change my mind flip flop on an idea because of new info. If i was wrong about how the WWs came about or even their true roles i want that to be shown and to remain in the OP.You understand my meaning and why?

[Modesty Lannister]

This is a perfect example of you not reading properly and letting old gripes and the fact that i called you out for being disrespectful cloud your judgement.You have nothing to say.My quotes are spot on and you know what supports my theory....the 93 letter and analyzing.

Back to you not reading correctly.Go to the OP and at the bottom of the OP read that last line.Then i want you to show me what quotes "you feel" i have read in a way that suits me.Don't be shy i'm not going to bite.Then come back and apologize.If not, i'll really appreciate if you not post here unless you can objectvely go over the OP and have a conversation.

I really have no patience for this kind of thing.

I don't care whether you have patience. This is how many times you came out with the same OP with invented form of life and/or unlife that do not exist in the books. The joke thing was added later when a poster questioned you. So, don't play coy with me. It's wight and not Wight. Is it also a joke? Evil greenseers? Really?

[wolfmaid7]

I don't care whether you have patience. This is how many times you came out with the same OP with invented form of life and/or unlife that do not exist in the books. The joke thing was added later when a poster questioned you. So, don't play coy with me. It's wight and not Wight. Is it also a joke? Evil greenseers? Really?

No it wasn't it was in the earliest of this thread and i responded to said poster and said "i thought the joke was clear" and it was after that i edited it to make clear it is an inside joke,we can easily go back and look at the post and see Modesty. You are talking about things that are based from your own bias against me and it is really sad

What invented life-form are you talking about.Its the same terminology."the cold" is just a coined term it always have been.It wasn't something new or invested it was what the characters themselves described and it sounded cool.It is just a coined term for a Greenseer.

Have you been reading the book? If you have read the books and the WB you do know the powers of the Greenseers right? You know they are just exceptional skinchangers right. Don't act out and be beligerent and answer this.You are upset because i didn't capitalize the w in wights....Would that make you feel better if i do.Wights,there you go.Lets get back to grown up stuff and leave childishness behind shall we.

Is the power exhibited with the Wights---enthralling dead animals and people any different than what we have seen Skinchangers do in this story?

Don't be or act ignorant because you have a personal gripe against me.Answer the question that i asked 3 times.

Is it the same or not?

Are the WWs raising the Wights yes or no?

That's all i want to see you answer to.Personal attacks are distracting. Plus Evil Greenseer is your term not mine.