The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

[Voice]

I know that,it catches me all the time. :cheers:

Also, i agree with you on the Others( To me Greenseers) raising the WWs in addition to the Wights. If GRRM stays true to that so be it. The reason why i am not going to chnage my initial felings about the WWs being like the COTF is because when this is all said and done i want to see how far or near my feelings were to the finish product.Or to be seen to change my mind flip flop on an idea because of new info. If i was wrong about how the WWs came about or even their true roles i want that to be shown and to remain in the OP.You understand my meaning and why?

Sure I getcha. But no need to worry what others might think. We're all blips on a computer screen, debating fantasy fiction ;) Flip flopping is for politicians. We're not running for office. I've changed my mind countless times in considering others' theories, rereading the books, then finding them valid at the expense of my own. An open mind is malleable to change. Only a fool is certain he understands everything... so feel free to say I'm right anytime ;) LOL kidding!

For me though, Greenseers are the observers of life itself, teachers and keepers of life's awe. The Ancient Others are the opposite, contemptuous of all we consider life, who seek to end and pervert the natural cycle of life and death...

[wolfmaid7]

Sure I getcha. But no need to worry what others might think. We're all blips on a computer screen, debating fantasy fiction ;) Flip flopping is for politicians. We're not running for office. I've changed my mind countless times in considering others' theories, rereading the books, then finding them valid at the expense of my own. An open mind is malleable to change. Only a fool is certain he understands everything... so feel free to say I'm right anytime ;) LOL kidding!

For me though, Greenseers are the observers of life itself, teachers and keepers of life's awe. The Ancient Others are the opposite, contemptuous of all we consider life, who seek to end and pervert the natural cycle of life and death...

I do get the changing minds and my mind more or less with the WWs have changed a little.I like Frey Family Reunion's idea about the WWs being Golems that's the reason for the shout out and mentioning that it is a theory that i like. But i also don't want to erase my idea about them being a different type of Children.So i keep my original thoughts because to me that's authentic until i see where GRRM ends it.

To the Greenseers and i will take an alternate tacct on it because i don't think we are far off at all.This again goes back to how very similar the Greenseers are (down to role) to the Oak and Holly Kings.So you are correct at lease when it comes to the Summer Greenseer as being connected to the green and life.But if we are being true to the pattern of the cycle you can't have Life,or the Summer King without Death or the Winter king.

So what you call your Ancient Others a term by the way that is not in the book i call Greenseers because not only are they in the books,but the power exhibited by them can be superimposed on what is happening with the Wights.We also have this from the WB

"Yet no matter the truths of their arts the Children were led by their Greenseers and they could be found from the LOAW to the shores of the Summer Sea WB pg 7."

Which tells us not only were the COTF led by Greenseers they were also located in the LOAW.

Melissandre as i said is both wrong and right and she lays the war out correctly except what she is wrong about is what the Children are also wrong about " we are not dealing with gods" just extraordinary people whose hearts are prone to corruption and selfish motives.

ETA: On a separate note fortunately for me i don't get phased by insults unless they are pretty bad and someone i don't know and will never know isn't gong to bug me.But if you are going to be part of a conversation,be part of a conversation and dispense with nonsense personal attacks because you have a personal grie against a poster.Me liking or not liking shouldn't stop one form being objective.It's about professionalism,we are adults and i'm sure there isn't a person who can't say they's worked with someone they don't like.You still have to do your job and do it objectively.

[Voice]

Indeed, you will not find "Ancient Others" in the books. In the 1993 letter, they were "half-forgotten demons out legend," the "inhuman others," and in the books, they have been shortened to simply, "the Others."

[wolfmaid7]

I agree I think it goes to show how not only have a lot of things been forgotten, but that the things lost to memory have been the foundation for the evolution of many of the terms used describe "the enemy" while at the same time provided a concealment for said enemy.

I had said on Heresy many times that term will bite us in the but because it is not truly a description.

[Cladinator]

I don't know. My impression is that the WWs, Others, walking dead, etc, etc are the true threat and enemy to the realm.

It's an interesting concept but not everything in ASoIaF is something other than what it seems.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't know. My impression is that the WWs, Others, walking dead, etc, etc are the true threat and enemy to the realm.

It's an interesting concept but not everything in ASoIaF is something other than what it seems.

Well in the case of the Others and lets stick with them for a bit because the WWs and the Wights are just creations of/by them.

So who are the Others? Are they something alien to the story? Something no one has ever seen?No they are not, and this is the trouble with names and assigning lables to things not understood that's why it is important to remove labels and look at patterns and behaviors.

1.The Others are said to come, by riding the icy winds from the North.We have seen that pattern with this strange wind repeatedly.

2.They enthrall anything that is dead; be it man,beast anything that flies and thanks to Cotter Pike's reports we know there are "dead things in the water"

With this info we then have to look at the text and see what being in the story is said to do and exhibit the same thing;ride the winds, enthrall man,beast,birds and anything that swims except in this case they are living?

The only thing that fits this bill are "Greenseers".It's not a new individual.or something alien to the story of Westeros.In fact they have been in the story since the begining.But no one focuses on them because they are "half-forgotten". The focus is always on the COTF and their war but we forget the Greenseers were their leaders and they existed also in the LOAW.

[Cladinator]

Well in the case of the Others and lets stick with them for a bit because the WWs and the Wights are just creations of/by them.

The Others and White Walkers are the same thing:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others

Wights are the Other's thralls.

[Voice]

The Others and White Walkers are the same thing:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others

Wights are the Other's thralls.

Nope, there are clear differences between them. As outlined here. As well as in GRRM's synopsis to his agent:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

GRRM changed the name from "neverborn" in his initial drafts, to "white walkers." The true Others-proper raise them both: wights and white walkers.

[wolfmaid7]

As Voice said WWs and "Others" are not and were never the same thing.A link to his OP about it is in my OP and his signature.Its a nice read, and though I think the "Others" moniker conceals that its a Greenseer we are truly dealing with the breakdown of the hierarchical outline ia done nicely on Voice's thread.

All evidentiary quotes are in spoiler tags in OP.

[ummester]

Back to the OP - I didn't read everything in between.

I do agree with much of it. I do think the Night's King controls the White Walkers/Others as most understand them. I do think that the show has spoiled a major part of the mythology that will become apparent shortly in the books - that the Night's King makes White Walkers out of Craster's sons, I do think that Jon is going to be the next Night's King. I have considered that Coldhands is the current Night's King but am undecided on this.

Where the OP looses me a bit is the idea of the 2 gods/avatars locked in some eternal conflict and how Bran and Jon relate to this - I don't see Bran and Jon working out opposed to each other in any way, as in one represents Summer and one represents Winter, rather I see them bringing the cold to the south together.

[wolfmaid7]

Back to the OP - I didn't read everything in between.

I do agree with much of it. I do think the Night's King controls the White Walkers/Others as most understand them. I do think that the show has spoiled a major part of the mythology that will become apparent shortly in the books - that the Night's King makes White Walkers out of Craster's sons, I do think that Jon is going to be the next Night's King. I have considered that Coldhands is the current Night's King but am undecided on this.

Where the OP looses me a bit is the idea of the 2 gods/avatars locked in some eternal conflict and how Bran and Jon relate to this - I don't see Bran and Jon working out opposed to each other in any way, as in one represents Summer and one represents Winter, rather I see them bringing the cold to the south together.

Thank you for posting Unmester.Let me start by saying the in betweens were important especially as it relates to the Oak and Holly king myths who are what Jon and Bran are mirroring.Keep in mind that they really aren't gods they are just exceptional human being playing a role that Melissandre describes as "The War".Also, and it is in the links under the Greenseer/Oak and Holly king parallel GRRM has laid out that parallel through the 5books but really expounded on it in the Garth the Greenhand section of the WB.Garth the Greenhand is another archatype of the Summer/Oak King.

As to Jon and Bran being at odds with each other,as much as i hate for that to happen i think it is heading that way atlease temporarily and in a way he did fore-tell this in the sysnopsis that Bran and Jon would be extranged after Jon refuses to help them.If it was his original idea to have them at odds then this is a sure way to keep that idea and have it work in the context of how the story has unfolded currently.

With regards to CHs the link between him and the story of the Shrouded Lord solidified that for me.

But read the links and spoiler tag quotes it will put a lot of things in perspective a bit as it shows the connections.

[ummester]

I meant I didn't read much of the thread in between, wolfmaid, I did read the whole opening statement.

Yes, I agree that there are strong similarities with the Shrouded Lord and the Night's King, strong enough to suggest they are different interpretation of the same mythology.

And yes, I acknowledge that some of Bran's thoughts foreshadow Jon becoming the Lord of Winter.

I just don't see where in your OP, or ASoIaF, anywhere that conclusively suggests the Greenseers and Nights King avatars were ever or ever will be opposed.

I think Mel is the most unreliable narration/quote in you chosen bunch. She sees things truly but interprets badly. I personally don't even think that R'hllor and the Great Other are in opposition, beyond the possibility that the first Long Night was related to dragons, which can be related to R'hllor. Don't forget, Mel thought Blood Raven was the face of the enemy, so if we continue the logic that Jon will oppose Bran, then Mel will have to side with Jon (which will make him distinctly Surtr, with a fiery sword and army of elementals). And how does Dany fit into all of this?

I like to think, that by the end game, this will all be tied up - that Dany, Bran and Jon will arise as the 3 respective heads of a metaphoric 'dragon' and that the mythology's will all come together.

[ummester]

If I elaborate, this bit here:

Without going to much into another theory it seems GRRM is using the Greenseers as archetypes of the Oak and Holly King relationship. Depending on what tradition is involved the Oak and Holly King are two sides of the same god (The Horned Lord) while in others they are twin brothers engaged in an everlasting but necessary struggle that governs "The Wheel of the year" or the seasonal lengths.

Is a jump for me. Before this part, it seemed like the argument was heading towards Greenseers can raise and control the dead, therefore Bran will end up assisting the Others.

Besides, If Coldhands is the Nights King (that represents Winter), why does he take Bran to Bloodraven (that represents Summer)? that just doesn't make sense. What makes more sense is that The Knights King and BloodRaven are in cahoots and that Jon and Bran will be their replacements/protégés.

[Voice]

I personally don't even think that R'hllor and the Great Other are in opposition

:agree: Mayhaps the Great Other's name must not be spoken, because it is "R'llhor."

[wolfmaid7]

Let me start with this

I agree Mel is unreliable,but i her unreliability comes NOT in what she knows or sees but as you rightly stated HOW she interprets them.So what and who she deems gods aren't really gods.That is her interpretation.Her interpretation also sees this as one has to defeat the other forever and that is disasterous.To the next point Mel didn't actually think BR was the enemy she "wondered if he was a servant of the Great Other".She's not sure what he represents.The R'hollor/Other idea i throw away because they don't exist people like Mel believe they do and belief can be super imposed on something that looks like ones belief.So when Jon comes back and he's a bit "cold" where do you think Mel will put him?

How does Dany fit into this? She is on equall parts with Bran and therefore can and will probably be used in the same capacity by Moroqorro that Bran is being used by BR.

Now to go back to the OP remember the Oak and Holly King myth is two-fold.In one myth its one being with two sides and in another its two beings that are brothers.So it maybe a tale of two-brothers in conflict or it maybe one person n conflict with themselves.I think Bran and Jon being forced to be in conflct reconcile's GRRM's 93 outline with them being at odds.You ask where i got the idea that they would be opposed.

1.That GRRM is reinventing in his world that Oak/Holly King Myth

2. Mels statement,though she interprets it wrong

3.The 93 Outline pitting Jon and Bran together and the part of the Letter that pit Greenseers working with Maesters against the Others.

4.We were promised a bittersweet ending

I personally don't think it will be so clean or neat

If I elaborate, this bit here:

Without going to much into another theory it seems GRRM is using the Greenseers as archetypes of the Oak and Holly King relationship. Depending on what tradition is involved the Oak and Holly King are two sides of the same god (The Horned Lord) while in others they are twin brothers engaged in an everlasting but necessary struggle that governs "The Wheel of the year" or the seasonal lengths.

Is a jump for me. Before this part, it seemed like the argument was heading towards Greenseers can raise and control the dead, therefore Bran will end up assisting the Others.

Besides, If Coldhands is the Nights King (that represents Winter), why does he take Bran to Bloodraven (that represents Summer)? that just doesn't make sense. What makes more sense is that The Knights King and BloodRaven are in cahoots and that Jon and Bran will be their replacements/protégés.

I had to edit this because i just realized you said the same thing i was just saying so i'll expound on it.This i would have liked to discuss futher in part 2 but what the heck.

You are 100% correct they are in cahoots and as i said in my OP at the end Bran is BR's replacement(Well actually Rickon is but that's for another time) and Jon is CH's replacement.However,i think neither of them intends on going quietly or at all.

I will preface this by saying i don't believe BR is the 3ec,but i believe the Crow's visons were riddled with warnings as well as future events noticbebly this vision where Bran saw

" Dreamers who didn't learn to fly impaled on ice spikes" To me these may very well be Greenseers who were taken out before they could replace their predecessors.

I believe Bran is being and will be manipulated by BR.CH's got Bloodraven Bran and BR through Bran will get CH's Jon.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree: Mayhaps the Great Other's name must not be spoken, because it is "R'llhor."

This may also be a possibility that one of them may have the mantle of both..take your pick brothers til the end or one person with both characteristic.

My favorite and you know i've talked about this on Heresy about Rickon being the one chosen and Bran NOT.

[ummester]

:agree: Mayhaps the Great Other's name must not be spoken, because it is "R'llhor."

As the human hearts are in conflict with themselves, so is their planet's and the deity's that represent it.

Wolfmaid, wait a minute - are you saying we agree now - that BR/Bran and Nights King/Jon will work together in the conclusion to ASoIaF? I'm thinking they will and that Dany and her dragons will also end up working with them, thus representing the 3 heads.

It's why I think GRRM has been deliberately vague and conflicting with the ASoIaF prophecy(s) - they aren't referencing a saviour that will ward of some evil force trying to destroy the world, they reference avatars that will bring an end time and restore balance via destruction.

[Voice]

As the human hearts are in conflict with themselves, so is their planet's and the deity's that represent it.

Well said. I'd go a step further:

In Westeros, their planet's heart and deity are one and the same: weirwoods.

[SomeFremen]

WW with some magic raise the wights. The wights are mindless drones. The others are WW leaders, maybe ancient demons.

I see the Greenseer, leader of COTF, as a balancing factor (in tune with nature, seeks to keep/bring balance), and the Others as the Cold unbalancing factor and the Dragons as the Fire unbalancing factor.

The Others and the dragons are not good or bad, they just want to change the balance of power in their favor. The Others kill people for their army, the red priests kill people too, just like the WW raise wights, each of these factions unknowingly altering the balance of ice magic and fire magic. If there are gods of fire and ice, might not be super important, but magic is real in this fiction, that is a fact. And we've seen magic near dragons and we've seen magic beyond the wall, raising the dead.

The Cold Jon Snow felt was most likely an indication of dieing, not becoming a zombie, not even WW approaching. As a symbol it might mean much more, it might change him even if he gets to be resurected. Also it's clear that it's not the cold that raises the dead, as a separate force. The cold comes with the army of the Others (which includes wights and WW) and represents the dominance of their army where the move forward, their presence.

Now while I did say that WW raise the dead (or even make the dead) some cloud of cold might raise them too, but it's part of the same force, their magic (of the Others).

Also I want to underline what I think of Mel's R'hollor and his priests. The Fire religion obviouslly doesnt give a crap about good, about honor about anything. They kill a lot of people in the name of R'hollor, maybe not knowing why, but perhaps this great fire force/R'hollor wants to shrink the population, so that the Great Other won't have such a big crop of an army, or posibly making it's own force stronger by this means.

Bottom line

fire magic/dragons/R'hollor -> kill people, lots of them !

the cold/The great Other/WW/wights -> kill people, lots of them

Both of them for the same purpose, to gain strenght and weaken their enemy.

GreenSeer (Bran) will have to restore the balance between these forces

[ummester]

Well said. I'd go a step further:

In Westeros, their planet's heart and deity are one and the same: weirwoods.

Do weirwoods grow in Essos?