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wolfmaid7

The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

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WW with some magic raise the wights. The wights are mindless drones. The others are WW leaders, maybe ancient demons.



I see the Greenseer, leader of COTF, as a balancing factor (in tune with nature, seeks to keep/bring balance), and the Others as the Cold unbalancing factor and the Dragons as the Fire unbalancing factor.



The Others and the dragons are not good or bad, they just want to change the balance of power in their favor. The Others kill people for their army, the red priests kill people too, just like the WW raise wights, each of these factions unknowingly altering the balance of ice magic and fire magic. If there are gods of fire and ice, might not be super important, but magic is real in this fiction, that is a fact. And we've seen magic near dragons and we've seen magic beyond the wall, raising the dead.



The Cold Jon Snow felt was most likely an indication of dieing, not becoming a zombie, not even WW approaching. As a symbol it might mean much more, it might change him even if he gets to be resurected. Also it's clear that it's not the cold that raises the dead, as a separate force. The cold comes with the army of the Others (which includes wights and WW) and represents the dominance of their army where the move forward, their presence.


Now while I did say that WW raise the dead (or even make the dead) some cloud of cold might raise them too, but it's part of the same force, their magic (of the Others).



Also I want to underline what I think of Mel's R'hollor and his priests. The Fire religion obviouslly doesnt give a crap about good, about honor about anything. They kill a lot of people in the name of R'hollor, maybe not knowing why, but perhaps this great fire force/R'hollor wants to shrink the population, so that the Great Other won't have such a big crop of an army, or posibly making it's own force stronger by this means.



Bottom line


fire magic/dragons/R'hollor -> kill people, lots of them !


the cold/The great Other/WW/wights -> kill people, lots of them


Both of them for the same purpose, to gain strenght and weaken their enemy.


GreenSeer (Bran) will have to restore the balance between these forces


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Well said. I'd go a step further:

In Westeros, their planet's heart and deity are one and the same: weirwoods.

Do weirwoods grow in Essos?

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As the human hearts are in conflict with themselves, so is their planet's and the deity's that represent it.

Wolfmaid, wait a minute - are you saying we agree now - that BR/Bran and Nights King/Jon will work together in the conclusion to ASoIaF? I'm thinking they will and that Dany and her dragons will also end up working with them, thus representing the 3 heads.

It's why I think GRRM has been deliberately vague and conflicting with the ASoIaF prophecy(s) - they aren't referencing a saviour that will ward of some evil force trying to destroy the world, they reference avatars that will bring an end time and restore balance via destruction.

Sorry for the late reply Unmester,i was in a car accident yesterday morning.

We are in agreement with somethings i would say. To clarify. I think BR and CH's are working together but i do not think their agenda is in the interest of the realm for the positive.And unfortunately,because the COTF view BR and Greenseers in particular in a certain light they most likely aren't going to be much help.Yes i believe 100% that Jon is the next NK/Winter King and CH's replacement and Bran BR's.That BR and CH's want to be replaced...Nahhhh.

My thought and this doesn't have to be correct that's the beauty about this myth GRRM can play around with how it can unfold.But i will go with the more traditional of how this can go.

Anyway we look at it we have one Summer and Oak kings than we need .Which means two have to go.I Think initially Bran unknowing to him will be manipulated to do some terrible stuff and Jon will have to intercede.Think a replay of "two hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort" Observed by Symeon Star Eys.This may or may not result in the death of one of them(my guess Bran).Or Bran and Jon will have to team up and defeat BR and CHs.

Dany is another wildcard that through manipulation i believe is going to make a mess of things before she can contribute.But that's for another tale.

Well said. I'd go a step further:

In Westeros, their planet's heart and deity are one and the same: weirwoods.

I think it's hard to separate them,though i think there is something to the heart of the Greenseers influencing the trees.They are basically skinchanging them

WW with some magic raise the wights. The wights are mindless drones. The others are WW leaders, maybe ancient demons.

I see the Greenseer, leader of COTF, as a balancing factor (in tune with nature, seeks to keep/bring balance), and the Others as the Cold unbalancing factor and the Dragons as the Fire unbalancing factor.

The Cold Jon Snow felt was most likely an indication of dieing, not becoming a zombie, not even WW approaching. As a symbol it might mean much more, it might change him even if he gets to be resurected. Also it's clear that it's not the cold that raises the dead, as a separate force. The cold comes with the army of the Others (which includes wights and WW) and represents the dominance of their army where the move forward, their presence.

GreenSeer (Bran) will have to restore the balance between these forces

Welcome SomeFremen:

First,off subtly through the books GRRM has placed clues that say (1) The WWs are not the ones raising the dead (2) They are not the "Others"

The 93 Outline clearly states that and for that to have been discovered still in the text since the Outline he hasn't changed it.

As to the Greenseers i agree they are suppose to be a balancing force but currently they aren't be it intentional or not but at it stands the fact that Westeros is seeing 10yr Summers and Winters plus varying lengths that are long indicates there is an "imbalance" between the Summer and Winter Greenseeing positions.Hence the reason they must be changed.

Well Grenn has the right of it when he states "The Cold and the Wights come together" again "The cold" doesn't do anything separate its just the Winter Greenseer's weapon with the Wights.They are one unit.So it's not the presence of the Wights or the WWs it is the presence of the Greenseer driving them.

In the end i am in agreement that their needs to be a elemental balance achieved and that can only be accomplished via the Summer and Winter Greenseing positions.Which means kicking BR and CH's off the board their agenda is unknown at the moment at lease to me.

Do weirwoods grow in Essos?

No but i think they have something close the "Shade of the evening tree" and i don't think anyone is linked to them the way the GSs are linked to the Weirwoods.

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Bottom line

fire magic/dragons/R'hollor -> kill people, lots of them !

the cold/The great Other/WW/wights -> kill people, lots of them

Both of them for the same purpose, to gain strenght and weaken their enemy.

GreenSeer (Bran) will have to restore the balance between these forces

I agree with this. And it fits well with the 1993 synopsis.

Do weirwoods grow in Essos?

As wolfmaid pointed out, they conspicuously do not....

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I think it's hard to separate them,though i think there is something to the heart of the Greenseers influencing the trees.They are basically skinchanging them

While I agree it is a connection akin to skinchanging, I don't they greenseers can influence the trees. How do you influence a tree anyway? Make it suck water faster than usual? Make it stand stiller than usual? ;)

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I agree with this. And it fits well with the 1993 synopsis.

As wolfmaid pointed out, they conspicuously do not....

I as well though i'm not going to put m head on a block that Bran will bring balance.He may,as well as he may with Jon.

While I agree it is a connection akin to skinchanging, I don't they greenseers can influence the trees. How do you influence a tree anyway? Make it suck water faster than usual? Make it stand stiller than usual? ;)

Sorry that was meant to be "heart of the Greenseers being influenced "by" the trees. I don't know what the hel happened there.I was thinking the trees for sure have a repository of knowledge.Of the atrocities that happened in the land and a peak into what went on with one's family if you so wish to peak.How would that affect a GS? It's very easy to get sidetracked.

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I as well though i'm not going to put m head on a block that Bran will bring balance.He may,as well as he may with Jon.

I understand the hesitation, but if not Bran, who?

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I understand the hesitation, but if not Bran, who?

We have talked about this before my feelings on Rickon actualy being Jon's counterpart and not Bran.There seems to enough clues that point to this for me.BR took Bran because he wanted Bran(he has been watching him) but i think he took him because he wasn't marked.

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I missed an interesting tidbit that i've been looking for and didn't realize i had the quote from another thread i wrote up.It goes back to the myth of the Oak(Summer) and Holly(Winter) Kings in relation to ASOIAF.As you may know i don't think there are actually gods in this series just extraordinarily gifted humans that have been elevated to "godhood" by followers.



So far when it comes to the whole ice and fire theme we have seen this verbally mentioned and visualized. Mel,Moroqorro,MDD,Rhaegar,Jojen and the WB have all touched on this and more and more the picture of elemental forces operating through gifted individuals in song is emerging.



We now see again these opposites playing out in terms of hearts



A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light......(ACOKs)


We also know R'hollor by now,god of flame and shadow whose sign is a "fiery heart"



the Red priest recognize two gods and one of them is deemed so evil that his name is not spoken.He is only referred to as The Great Other. As a wink wink, what other figure we know in this story whose name was wiped from memory because of his so call awful deeds?



I don't think its a coincidence that the Red Priest call their evil god "The Great Other" and Westeroi culture call their boggie men "Others" We can talk about possible cross culture contmination later.



So we get a fiery heart and another heart blue with corruption both echoing the long battle of fire and ice. What i think gets overlooked (i even did it) is that these hearts are "human hearts" and it is what i think lay at the root cause of what's happening.Ultimately,the Greenseers (cold and hot) are humans long lived with access to a repository of history be it from the ice that preserves or Weirwood trees.



How does the human heart fear against that fact with regards to the struggle? Some will falter lose their way and succumb to what that can mean.Is it what happening to the current GSs and what and how will their replacements (Bran and Jon) handle it themselves?



Looking forward to your thoughts.

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WW with some magic raise the wights. The wights are mindless drones. The others are WW leaders, maybe ancient demons.

I see the Greenseer, leader of COTF, as a balancing factor (in tune with nature, seeks to keep/bring balance), and the Others as the Cold unbalancing factor and the Dragons as the Fire unbalancing factor.

The Others and the dragons are not good or bad, they just want to change the balance of power in their favor.

Pretty much, reminds me of an electricity plug that has positive/negative, and then needs the third earth point

It hasn't been lost on me that the CoTF have plugged in someone with Dragon blood and someone with Ice/Snow blood into the Weirnet, it is probably a combination that will enable them to wield potent power, eg smashing of arm of Dorne type power in due course, though given there is now only one Cave on only Godswood concentrated in the north it might be diminished

As for the larger picture, I think there is some weird twist into what the Others and Nights King is, on one side will be Dany and the Valyrians for sure, other side is perhaps the Nights King, Jon Snow throughout the books has been a synthesis between disparate forces, most recently Melisandre and Val for example, so perhaps he as Jon Stark-Targaryen will be the peace broker between the factions of winter and summer

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Pretty much, reminds me of an electricity plug that has positive/negative, and then needs the third earth point

Not a bad "tri-chotomy" to have in mind.... Those who sing the song of earth, ground those who sing the song of Ice and Fire.

Though I still think the Others, and Dragons, are unhealthy if you happen to prefer your life's blood unfrozen or unboiled....

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I think everything has its purpose and its place.Dragons are out of their time had they not been awakened by the Valyrians they probably would still be hibernating until nature was ready to support or use them.The Others are a different because again what and who are we talking about? By Wights and wws i say the same thing and lets be honest in the case of the "Others" they haven't been an issue for thousands of years,Dragons 300 yrs .



In totality though they aren't the problem.They are here now together when they have never existed at the same time because the world is facing an extinction event.This is the great purge and when the dust clears only a remnant will remain.



Maybe something will happen that will forestall the judgement of fire and ice,or maybe not and a purge needs to happen.


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Well eventhough it is the show it so far confirms a lot of what have been put forth in the OP.i.e the wws not raising the dead.Yes we get a better look at the NK/Winter king and what he can do and what he's responsible for.Seeing as we have a bit more info about his Summer counterpart BR,it would be nice to delve deeper into him.


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lol, when that blizzard approached I actually thought of Heresy and this thread though it seemed to be for horror film dramatic effect...



The show seemed to be implying that the NK was raising them...



At the same time if that is the case it could be a case of the show streamlining a lot of things



Eg Valyrian Steel and Dragonsteel could be cousin blades and not quite fully interchangeable, eg there could be a different mix of spells, but both can kill White Walkers. Or it could be that Dragonsteel is a pre-Valyrian Empire term for VS blades...



I still think there is a very faint looking get out clause in favour of Heresy, eg the Wights merely ignore the White Walkers who are just casually walking amongst the Wights and observing from atop the cliff. The NK is raising his arms but that could just be bravado aimed at Jon after he killed his colleague as the Wights are raised around them (eg there's no water freezing). This raises the question of why the fight with the White Walker, but there's a faint excuse that White Walkers don't like Giants because they can be warged by CoTF (waking Giants in the Earth) and become potent weapons, so perhaps the previously aloof White Walker was going into the hut to chase after the previously hidden Wun Wun etc etc



Given the shows penchant for merging, streamlining a lot of things though, it's possible that similar to doing away Mance/Abel and the Horn of Joramun, half the northern Lords, with Aegon/Young Griff, Blackfyres and making Littlefinger and Varys totally illogical and butchering Sansa's Alayne arc, they have done a similar thing with Others lore and what we will see in the show will be dramatically different in the books


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lol, when that blizzard approached I actually thought of Heresy and this thread though it seemed to be for horror film dramatic effect...

The show seemed to be implying that the NK was raising them...

At the same time if that is the case it could be a case of the show streamlining a lot of things

Eg Valyrian Steel and Dragonsteel could be cousin blades and not quite fully interchangeable, eg there could be a different mix of spells, but both can kill White Walkers. Or it could be that Dragonsteel is a pre-Valyrian Empire term for VS blades...

I still think there is a very faint looking get out clause in favour of Heresy, eg the Wights merely ignore the White Walkers who are just casually walking amongst the Wights and observing from atop the cliff. The NK is raising his arms but that could just be bravado aimed at Jon after he killed his colleague as the Wights are raised around them (eg there's no water freezing). This raises the question of why the fight with the White Walker, but there's a faint excuse that White Walkers don't like Giants because they can be warged by CoTF (waking Giants in the Earth) and become potent weapons, so perhaps the previously aloof White Walker was going into the hut to chase after the previously hidden Wun Wun etc etc

Given the shows penchant for merging, streamlining a lot of things though, it's possible that similar to doing away Mance/Abel and the Horn of Joramun, half the northern Lords, with Aegon/Young Griff, Blackfyres and making Littlefinger and Varys totally illogical and butchering Sansa's Alayne arc, they have done a similar thing with Others lore and what we will see in the show will be dramatically different in the books

I think they had to ramp up the NK raising them a bit a flick of a head might don't have been powefully visual enough to convey,but my funny take on the eye lock was.Thanks for the bodies.

A note: keep in mind to keep discussions of the show relevent to the topic so as to adhere to mods warning about discussing the show.We don't want posts to be erased or the thread to be locked or go missing.

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