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wolfmaid7

The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

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The WW are better understood as the cold equivalents of Dragons.

Which would make sense if anyone actually understood the WW. Dragons have been documented, studied, trained, bred, etc. There is nothing in the text which leads us to believe that they are the cold equivalents of Dragon save for the fact that one is hot and one is cold.

Like I said, I agree the 'The Cold' is the real enemy and that the WW are misunderstood in the greater context though clearly antagonistic and clearly real (not superstition).

One of the things GRRM does extremely well is to present characters and choices as gray. There is no true evil or pure good. So in that sense I think the Cold/WW/dead have their own perspective which hopefully is explored in WoW.

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I think that you guys are missing the point.

Yes the WW are leading the Wights, It is essential and crucial that the WWs control the dead,that needs to happen.They are the only ones that can control the wights when they rise,but they are not leading them to destroy mankind.On their own without the WWs yes,they will totally eat everything insight but not with the WW.The Wall will not guard against the Cold when it moves south,no man will attack it because it can't be seen.Those left on the Wall will attack the WWs when they get there,not for the realm but for survival this will be a big mistake because they will keep the WW's from going South to gather the large amount of Wights that will be rising there.That is their part in the cycle.

The WWs are following "the" cold and 'the cold" is heading south because that is where the most death will be taking place.The WWs will be stuck on the other side of the Wall fighting.

Ask yourselves during the longnight how is it that scores of wights that made up armies and citizens alike were beaten.? There is no evidence that the COTF allied with men beat WWs,not at all.So how do you get thousands of walking dead to take a hike when you got no army and the number of Wights outnumber you?

Also if the Wights are already attracted to eating the warm blooded,why do you need WWs to lead them?They will go where they sense blood you don't need anything to lead them,just let them do their stuff kill and eat.Why lead things to destroy and kill if on their own that's what they do anyway?

They will kill,make more wights,who will kill and on and on and on.It is only with the WW controlling them that they won't do this.

Here's the problem,the amount of dead rising outnumbers the WW.Now we know why the WW are making frequent visit too Craster's .

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The Wights:

These seem to be the real problem, all killings and violent actions have been committed by them.

In the sense that bullets are the real problem and not the gun, sure.

IMO, they are the agents of death, they minions of evil, they don't exist unless they have a purpose. I would argue the same goes for the WW's.

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Also if the Wights are already attracted to eating the warm blooded,why do you need WWs to lead them?They will go where they sense blood you don't need anything to lead them,just let them do their stuff kill and eat.Why lead things to destroy and kill if on their own that's what they do anyway?

I'm not purposely being argumentative, I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying.

But to answer your question: Wolves, boars, dragons etc... will just go out and kill and eat if you let them, but if you can lead them you are all the more powerful.

Without the WW's the Wights do seem to have some memory and some method to their madness, so yeah, they don't have to be lead.

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Ask yourselves during the longnight how is it that scores of wights that made up armies and citizens alike were beaten.? There is no evidence that the COTF allied with men beat WWs,not at all.So how do you get thousands of walking dead to take a hike when you got no army and the number of Wights outnumber you?

According to Bran's memory of old Nan's story, the CotF helped the last hero. Which is what they are doing for Bran right now.

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Which would make sense if anyone actually understood the WW. Dragons have been documented, studied, trained, bred, etc. There is nothing in the text which leads us to believe that they are the cold equivalents of Dragon save for the fact that one is hot and one is cold.

Like I said, I agree the 'The Cold' is the real enemy and that the WW are misunderstood in the greater context though clearly antagonistic and clearly real (not superstition).

One of the things GRRM does extremely well is to present characters and choices as gray. There is no true evil or pure good. So in that sense I think the Cold/WW/dead have their own perspective which hopefully is explored in WoW.

Thanks for posting that I was thinking that is not a good comparison either but didn't know how to word the response.

According to Bran's memory of old Nan's story, the CotF helped the last hero. Which is what they are doing for Bran right now.

Yeah many people on the forum are saying THERE IS NO EVIDENCE COTF ALLIED W/ FIRST MEN, but there is a lot hinting this is the case, the smoking gun to me is the "gift" of obsidian blades given from the COTF to the first men every year. It also seems a bit wierd to totally disregard the wiki which does state that they were allies in the Battle for the Dawn...

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Sigh... once again the wiki wasn't written by GRRM but by readers such as yourself.

The children certainly helped the last of the 13 heroes, but in the context of Bran's recollection (hearing that his Uncle Benjen was missing beyond the Wall) that was helping save him from his immediate pursuers.

What is very very conspicuously lacking is the story of how the Long Night ended and how, if at all, the white walkers were defeated. There are no stories told or alluded to, with the single exception of a song about the Nights Watch riding out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. There was evidently a battle, but we know nothing about it; when it was fought or how it was won. Curiously in his researches Sam turns up various references to the Others, but in his briefing to Jon he says absolutely nothing about the Battle for the Dawn, yet surely an account of how the Others were defeated ought to have been at the core of what he told.

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I think i posted this on another forum....brain fart can't remember which one ,but the gift of the Obsidian arrowheads is not proof that the COTF helped men against the Others.

My theory proposes that the WW's control of the Wights is a good thing.

I believe Old Nan's story has a lot of truth but the who did what and why is the problem and i think this is what have been misunderstood when it comes to the role the WW played.

The COTF helped the Last hero,we have no idea what they did and even if they helping him was in line with rulers of the land of men. He could have set out on his own with his companions against the wishes of the other leaders. Who is to say that his quest was sanctioned or approved by the other men.

To this day the COTF have not mention anything about defeating the WWs,isn't that odd?

My understanding of the wiki is that is was written by fans, whose interpretation is subjective,the text however does not say that there was an alliance between men and the COTF.It does not even allude to that.

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Sigh... but the wiki has sources. How about this: show us the text where it states the COTF fought against the first men in the battle for the dawn, or a wiki quote... or anything.

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They haven't mentioned anything at all about the white walkers, never mind defeating them - and neither come to that has Bryn Blackwood, notwithstanding popular opinion that Bran has been brought to the Cave of Skulls in order to learn how to defeat the Others.

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Sigh... but the wiki has sources. How about this: show us the text where it states the COTF fought against the first men in the battle for the dawn, or a wiki quote... or anything.

Yes, and if you check back the cited sources to the passages in the books (as opposed to third party stuff) it doesn't say what the wiki pretends it does.

As to your question, no, there is no reference anywhere to the children fighting against men in the Battle for the Dawn, but we do know from the books that they fought against each other before the Pact and that when the Andals came they were massacred and fled north beyond the Wall. Granted it was the Andals who did the massacring but there are no tales of the First Men fighting alongside them and a categoric statement that the Children fled beyond the Wall, rather than slowly withdrew from the realms of men.

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Sigh... once again the wiki wasn't written by GRRM but by readers such as yourself.

The children certainly helped the last of the 13 heroes, but in the context of Bran's recollection (hearing that his Uncle Benjen was missing beyond the Wall) that was helping save him from his immediate pursuers.

What is very very conspicuously lacking is the story of how the Long Night ended and how, if at all, the white walkers were defeated. There are no stories told or alluded to, with the single exception of a song about the Nights Watch riding out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. There was evidently a battle, but we know nothing about it; when it was fought or how it was won. Curiously in his researches Sam turns up various references to the Others, but in his briefing to Jon he says absolutely nothing about the Battle for the Dawn, yet surely an account of how the Others were defeated ought to have been at the core of what he told.

Thank you BC for that!

how does one get rid of a walking dead army of millions? How do you get them to leave? Someone or thing has to lead them away that in my opinion is how the Longnight ended the WWs were responsible for that.If not where did they all go did they just fall to the ground and start rotting.I'm sure we would have heard of something call "The Decade of the great stink"?

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Yes, and if you check back the cited sources to the passages in the books (as opposed to third party stuff) it doesn't say what the wiki pretends it does.

As to your question, no, there is no reference anywhere to the children fighting against men in the Battle for the Dawn, but we do know from the books that they fought against each other before the Pact and that when the Andals came they were massacred and fled north beyond the Wall. Granted it was the Andals who did the massacring but there are no tales of the First Men fighting alongside them and a categoric statement that the Children fled beyond the Wall, rather than slowly withdrew from the realms of men.

Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Edit: typo

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My theory proposes that the WW's control of the Wights is a good thing.

So basically if we understand the WW's better, perhaps understand the true enemy, maybe they can control the Wights and protect the realm?

I don't disagree with that. Possible.

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Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Not so very huge when you consider GRRM has admitted there is a relationship between them - and a relationship which the Children are conspicuously silent about, whatever its nature.

as to the RPG resource - its not canon.

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Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Edit: typo

So basically if we understand the WW's better, perhaps understand the true enemy, maybe they can control the Wights and protect the realm?

I don't disagree with that. Possible.

Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Edit: typo

So basically if we understand the WW's better, perhaps understand the true enemy, maybe they can control the Wights and protect the realm?

I don't disagree with that. Possible.

Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Edit: typo

So basically if we understand the WW's better, perhaps understand the true enemy, maybe they can control the Wights and protect the realm?

I don't disagree with that. Possible.

Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Edit: typo

So basically if we understand the WW's better, perhaps understand the true enemy, maybe they can control the Wights and protect the realm?

I don't disagree with that. Possible.

Whoa you read the RPG resource that fast!?

I can think of a thousand different scenarios based on the info you just posted. The conclusion that COTF control WW's is a HUGE JUMP.

Edit: typo

I am also doubting that the COTF control the WW,it is possible that they have used some magic to bend them.But i more believe that the WW are just doing something that men misunderstand and it is this "cold" that pretty much a beacon for them to wake up.

So basically if we understand the WW's better, perhaps understand the true enemy, maybe they can control the Wights and protect the realm?

I don't disagree with that. Possible.

I absolutely believe the key to the Wights is them.No matter what the COTF motives are whether they are controlling the WWs or not -i doubt it as i said i think that they (WW) are natural to the balance-They are not evil,they could be used as tools if someone knows some magic to bend them,that is possible to.But to be sure when the dead rises in massive amounts they will be paramount in controlling them one way or the other. I don't think that their purpose was ever to use Wights against man kind.Their job is like White blood cells in our body get rid of what "the cold" touches.

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but the gift of the Obsidian arrowheads is not proof that the COTF helped men against the Others.

But it was recorded by the NW and clearly it does help against the Others. So a) it did happen and is not myth. and b ) it does help.

To this day the COTF have not mention anything about defeating the WWs,isn't that odd?

But do we have any record of the CotF mentioning anything?

Someone or thing has to lead them away that in my opinion is how the Longnight ended the WWs were responsible for that.

Perhaps men (or the CotF) gave them a massive sacrifice (much like Craster's baby sacrifices) ? Maybe now, thousands of years later, they are demanding a new sacrifice?

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They are not evil

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, regardless of GRRM's good/evil ambiguity, that anything that leads armies of the dead is at least mostly evil. :cool4:

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Why? The dead don't care.

Morally speaking which is the greater evil? Leading armies of young men and boys compelled to follow their lords, or armies of slaves compelled to follow under pain of horrific punishment, all to hack and butcher each other to further their masters' political ambitions or greed - or recycling dead men, who are, already dead...

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, regardless of GRRM's good/evil ambiguity, that anything that leads armies of the dead is at least mostly evil. :cool4:

Or a Deadhead.

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