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wolfmaid7

The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

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OMG

From ADwD as Bran& co are trying to reach the CtF cave:

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame.

Almost the exact same wording as Mirri's dancing shadows... never noticed that before :dunce:

YES! GREAT CATCH! The blood mage practices magic similar to what we know of the old gods - including a resurrection - or healing - of Drogo, but Drogo was not a warg or a skinchanger. How will this magic work on - say Jon Snow who is a warg? Ghost/Jon will keep Jon's "essence" alive until it can be rejoined with his body. That is, if the blood mage and her magic is similar to the old gods, CotF, BR, and now Bran. This also means the draons are brought forth through magic paralleling the old gods, children, etc. This is all speculation, of course. But what fun!

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Re: Torwynd(?) I always thought he first died of cold (or The Cold) and then, being dead, was animated right away.



Regarding wight behaviour:


un-Small Paul was going for Gilly's baby because of the 'life' (or so Gilly thought).



The wights surrounding Gilly and the baby were busy disemboweling the garron.



unOthor killed the guard (twisted his neck around, like SP was trying to do with Sam) and then went on presumably to kill Mormont.



The wights surrounding Bran's cave:


three of them went after CH (very dead)


one, he thought, was trying to pull his Bran's guts out


the one attacking Hodor was raking at his eyes (and then the hands went for the throat)


once they were settled in the cave, Summer could come and go undisturbed, even as more and more wights and un-animals joined the host



unWaymar waited for Will to come down and get distracted, then strangled him (possibly also twisted his neck afterwards). BTW, I wonder if Will praying to the Old Gods (presumably) in his last moments made any difference post-death.



unWildlings from earlier that chapter: conveniently waited for Will to spot them, then conveniently disappeared



I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting about.



Also remarkable that they have a way of finding each other (unSP, NW men slain at the Fist and some un-winldlings all converged on Sam and Gilly, and Bran's cave attracted more and more visitors as well)



I guess the basic urge is to go grab the nearest thing alive and tear it apart? Then they also seem to have some degree of memory of their lives (some of them anyway) and there's presumably some degree of control from the WW or whatever is behind The Cold. I'm too tired at the moment to try to figure out what's what, though.


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Re: Torwynd(?) I always thought he first died of cold (or The Cold) and then, being dead, was animated right away.

Regarding wight behaviour:

un-Small Paul was going for Gilly's baby because of the 'life' (or so Gilly thought).

The wights surrounding Gilly and the baby were busy disemboweling the garron.

unOthor killed the guard (twisted his neck around, like SP was trying to do with Sam) and then went on presumably to kill Mormont.

The wights surrounding Bran's cave:

three of them went after CH (very dead)

one, he thought, was trying to pull his Bran's guts out

the one attacking Hodor was raking at his eyes (and then the hands went for the throat)

once they were settled in the cave, Summer could come and go undisturbed, even as more and more wights and un-animals joined the host

unWaymar waited for Will to come down and get distracted, then strangled him (possibly also twisted his neck afterwards). BTW, I wonder if Will praying to the Old Gods (presumably) in his last moments made any difference post-death.

unWildlings from earlier that chapter: conveniently waited for Will to spot them, then conveniently disappeared

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting about.

Also remarkable that they have a way of finding each other (unSP, NW men slain at the Fist and some un-winldlings all converged on Sam and Gilly, and Bran's cave attracted more and more visitors as well)

I guess the basic urge is to go grab the nearest thing alive and tear it apart? Then they also seem to have some degree of memory of their lives (some of them anyway) and there's presumably some degree of control from the WW or whatever is behind The Cold. I'm too tired at the moment to try to figure out what's what, though.

NANOTHER: I BET YOU ARE TIRED! THIS IS AMAZING - I can see in your prose how "things" were coming together in your mind. I can certainly relate to your excitement - and for me, if I do not commit my thought immediately to the written word, I lose the thought - and sometimes I never recall what amazing Idea [for me, anyway], I forgot in the first place.

Hodor raking his "eyes" seems related to the weirwood's "eyes" carved by the CotF thousands of years ago. Thistle scratches out her eyes before dying and rising. I also have a list of characters who shed tears of blood in AGoT - in a figurative way.

I have lots of notes and analysis on the symbology of the "mouth", which includes the neck, throat, and lips. Catelyn's throat is slit at the RW - she rises as Lady Stoneheart .

I better bow out for the night - I am wiped out as well. My brain has been exercised quite sufficiently. Tomorrow my ideas will be bolstered by sleep - which is imperative, elsewise I do not make sense.

But I thank you most sincerely for sharing your ideas - and at this point, I cannot remember what I said earlier, so I fear I will repeat something I already posted.

This is a thought I had tonight, and it has to do with my obsession with the sacred laws of hospitality: guests are greeted by a "host", and "host" is a word found within 'GHOST'. Host has other significant "meanings" - anyway, as you can probably observe, I am weary but I look forward to more discovery and analysis here or in another thread.

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You would "love" my analysis in which I compared Tyrion to Homeric hero Odysseus. I will have to search for my files on Tyrion.

I love your contributions - they are sincerely grounded and backed by evidence.

Yes please. I'd like to see your greek notes on Tyrion. That would make a splendid introduction on a re-read project!

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Re: Torwynd(?) I always thought he first died of cold (or The Cold) and then, being dead, was animated right away.

Regarding wight behaviour:

un-Small Paul was going for Gilly's baby because of the 'life' (or so Gilly thought).

The wights surrounding Gilly and the baby were busy disemboweling the garron.

unOthor killed the guard (twisted his neck around, like SP was trying to do with Sam) and then went on presumably to kill Mormont.

The wights surrounding Bran's cave:

three of them went after CH (very dead)

one, he thought, was trying to pull his Bran's guts out

the one attacking Hodor was raking at his eyes (and then the hands went for the throat)

once they were settled in the cave, Summer could come and go undisturbed, even as more and more wights and un-animals joined the host

unWaymar waited for Will to come down and get distracted, then strangled him (possibly also twisted his neck afterwards). BTW, I wonder if Will praying to the Old Gods (presumably) in his last moments made any difference post-death.

unWildlings from earlier that chapter: conveniently waited for Will to spot them, then conveniently disappeared

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting about.

Also remarkable that they have a way of finding each other (unSP, NW men slain at the Fist and some un-winldlings all converged on Sam and Gilly, and Bran's cave attracted more and more visitors as well)

I guess the basic urge is to go grab the nearest thing alive and tear it apart? Then they also seem to have some degree of memory of their lives (some of them anyway) and there's presumably some degree of control from the WW or whatever is behind The Cold. I'm too tired at the moment to try to figure out what's what, though.

You are correct on towin "the cold " did get him he went to sleep and well woke up dead.

Your point about the Wights killing goes towards my third point in the question of why use wights and you answered . The cold not have a body would only be limited to those dying or dead with the wights they now have vessels that could kill .

But I think them having a little memory is important . Why go straight for Mormont and why not just break Jon 's neck . These people either way would rise but I believe it was important to show us how they work.

We have yet to see WWs controlling the Wights certainly not in the way we have been programmed to see it .

Why should there be anything behind the cold , it is the one that is in the drivers seat when it comes to the wights .Yes we've heard the tales concerning them and the only one we've seen to be true is they ride dead horses .

I believe they can control the dead for the expressed purpose of getting rid of them . The fact that some of the Old races Crows , Direwolves etc. can eat them makes my senses tingle.

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NANOTHER: I BET YOU ARE TIRED! THIS IS AMAZING - I can see in your prose how "things" were coming together in your mind. I can certainly relate to your excitement - and for me, if I do not commit my thought immediately to the written word, I lose the thought - and sometimes I never recall what amazing Idea [for me, anyway], I forgot in the first place.

Hodor raking his "eyes" seems related to the weirwood's "eyes" carved by the CotF thousands of years ago. Thistle scratches out her eyes before dying and rising. I also have a list of characters who shed tears of blood in AGoT - in a figurative way.

I have lots of notes and analysis on the symbology of the "mouth", which includes the neck, throat, and lips. Catelyn's throat is slit at the RW - she rises as Lady Stoneheart .

I better bow out for the night - I am wiped out as well. My brain has been exercised quite sufficiently. Tomorrow my ideas will be bolstered by sleep - which is imperative, elsewise I do not make sense.

But I thank you most sincerely for sharing your ideas - and at this point, I cannot remember what I said earlier, so I fear I will repeat something I already posted.

This is a thought I had tonight, and it has to do with my obsession with the sacred laws of hospitality: guests are greeted by a "host", and "host" is a word found within 'GHOST'. Host has other significant "meanings" - anyway, as you can probably observe, I am weary but I look forward to more discovery and analysis here or in another thread.

I will make a note of something here both Hodor and Thistle were being Skinchange. I believe after v6 had been expelled Thistle was being weighted

By "the cold " that in a way Skinchanges the dead so maybe the faces on the trees in their many grotesque ways are what people's face look like when they are being Skinchanged .

That one I admit is a crackpot theory but I can see it.

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I will make a note of something here both Hodor and Thistle were being Skinchange. I believe after v6 had been expelled Thistle was being weighted

By "the cold " that in a way Skinchanges the dead so maybe the faces on the trees in their many grotesque ways are what people's face look like when they are being Skinchanged .

That one I admit is a crackpot theory but I can see it.

NO - not too crackpot. I think that saying "the cold" skinchanges with the dead makes sense.

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OMG

From ADwD as Bran& co are trying to reach the CtF cave:

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame.

Almost the exact same wording as Mirri's dancing shadows... never noticed that before :dunce:

It is a nice catch. The "wreathed in flame" language is apparently significant, as Martin uses it repeatedly. It occurs at the scene of MMD's blood magic, here outside the COTF cavern, at least once during the Battle of Blackwater (a figure wreathed in the green flames of wildfire), and it may also be used to describe the appearance of Jon in Mel's fire visions. I'll see if I can pull the quotations together all in one place.

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It is a nice catch. The "wreathed in flame" language is apparently significant, as Martin uses it repeatedly. It occurs at the scene of MMD's blood magic, here outside the COTF cavern, at least once during the Battle of Blackwater (a figure wreathed in the green flames of wildfire), and it may also be used to describe the appearance of Jon in Mel's fire visions. I'll see if I can pull the quotations together all in one place.

It is really a nice catch indeed the language doesn't seem coincidental

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It is really a nice catch indeed the language doesn't seem coincidental

It is not. And it's used even more frequently than I realized - though I'd noticed some of the repetition before. There is some pattern to it, as well. There are wreathings and writhings. Flames and mists WREATHE certain people or objects; while smoke, shadows, serpents, leeches, kraken, and severed appendages (among other things) often WRITHE.

The two words are connected in meaning, which is why I looked at both. And while they don't necessarily occur together in Martin's descriptions, both words lend otherworldly significance when they are used.

I'll post a list of quotations elsewhere, as I'm not sure it's all that central to the subject of this thread. But wanted to mention it as a follow up.

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It is not. And it's used even more frequently than I realized - though I'd noticed some of the repetition before. There is some pattern to it, as well. There are wreathings and writhings. Flames and mists WREATHE certain people or objects; while smoke, shadows, serpents, leeches, kraken, and severed appendages (among other things) often WRITHE.

The two words are connected in meaning, which is why I looked at both. And while they don't necessarily occur together in Martin's descriptions, both words lend otherworldly significance when they are used.

I'll post a list of quotations elsewhere, as I'm not sure it's all that central to the subject of this thread. But wanted to mention it as a follow up.

Please do i would be very interested to know how that turns out,there was a quote something like that with respect to Jon about anger coiling in him like a cold (blank) i can't remember what animal he used or to which incident only that it seemed odd and then i dismissed it.

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Wolfmaid: I just want to commend you for your awesome theory. I always lurk on the Heresy thread as well, and I am a big fan of the theories you propose there as well.



I tend to agree with you on your 3 basic points, that “The cold,” “The White Walkers” and “The Whites” are all separate entities. I agree that it is this bodiless “Cold” that turns the dead into Whites and I also agree that The White Walkers are the so-called generals of this army, and they are effectively guiding and leading the Whites.



The point I tend to disagree with is the actual nature of this Cold army, as I am not entirely convinced that they are necessary to the natural order of things. I recently discovered the Winter Fell thread, and find that I prescribe to the theory that breached hospitality rites (specifically in the case of the Starks) is what has caused the winter storm in Dance to brew.



This does not necessarily account for the events that occur before any of the Starks leave Winterfell, but I’ll save that fact for the other thread …



Anyway, I’m starting to go on a tangent here, but I wanted to first address the points I agreed with and disagreed with regarding your theory before proposing a question to you. I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread as I’m only on page three right now. I intend to go back to reading the rest of the thread after I finish this post.



I used to think “A Song of Ice and Fire” meant that there was a clear antagonist (ice) and a clear protagonist (fire) and that this was a story of a battle between good and evil. Having read these forums and delved deeper into the text I have realized that George R.R. Martin does not work with absolutes, he works with shades of white, black and grey. So rather than this being an epic story of good vs. evil, it’s a story of returning balance to the world. Ice and fire are both needed.



And this is probably the main reason that the R+L=J theory appeals to me as much as it does, not just because I find the very limited information we have about R&L to be fascinating, but because if their respective bloodlines are as important to the natural balance of things, then a child born by them could potentially solidify that balance.



I wanted to ask you a question regarding something you mentioned in your OP and Jon in his last chapter of ADWD: Are you basically suggesting that when Jon feels the COLD instead of the fourth dagger, it is “The Cold” that has breached the wall and taken his body? You suggest at this point he has warged into Ghost (which I agree is the most likely possibility if we are to assume that Jon’s story is not finished) … but if what you suggest is true, that “The cold” is what makes the whites (I’m with you on this theory as well) … then Jon’s essentially a lost cause? The Cold has his body and he won’t be able to reclaim it?



So I guess my question boils down to this: Has “The Cold” effectively breached The Wall by the end of ADwD?



Great theory all in all, by the way. Even if I don’t necessarily agree with all of it, it’s very fun to speculate and it further enhances the reading experience. :D



And now I’m back to finish reading up on this thread …


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Wolfmaid: I just want to commend you for your awesome theory. I always lurk on the Heresy thread as well, and I am a big fan of the theories you propose there as well.

I tend to agree with you on your 3 basic points, that “The cold,” “The White Walkers” and “The Whites” are all separate entities. I agree that it is this bodiless “Cold” that turns the dead into Whites and I also agree that The White Walkers are the so-called generals of this army, and they are effectively guiding and leading the Whites.

The point I tend to disagree with is the actual nature of this Cold army, as I am not entirely convinced that they are necessary to the natural order of things. I recently discovered the Winter Fell thread, and find that I prescribe to the theory that breached hospitality rites (specifically in the case of the Starks) is what has caused the winter storm in Dance to brew.

This does not necessarily account for the events that occur before any of the Starks leave Winterfell, but I’ll save that fact for the other thread …

Anyway, I’m starting to go on a tangent here, but I wanted to first address the points I agreed with and disagreed with regarding your theory before proposing a question to you. I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread as I’m only on page three right now. I intend to go back to reading the rest of the thread after I finish this post.

I used to think “A Song of Ice and Fire” meant that there was a clear antagonist (ice) and a clear protagonist (fire) and that this was a story of a battle between good and evil. Having read these forums and delved deeper into the text I have realized that George R.R. Martin does not work with absolutes, he works with shades of white, black and grey. So rather than this being an epic story of good vs. evil, it’s a story of returning balance to the world. Ice and fire are both needed.

And this is probably the main reason that the R+L=J theory appeals to me as much as it does, not just because I find the very limited information we have about R&L to be fascinating, but because if their respective bloodlines are as important to the natural balance of things, then a child born by them could potentially solidify that balance.

I wanted to ask you a question regarding something you mentioned in your OP and Jon in his last chapter of ADWD: Are you basically suggesting that when Jon feels the COLD instead of the fourth dagger, it is “The Cold” that has breached the wall and taken his body? You suggest at this point he has warged into Ghost (which I agree is the most likely possibility if we are to assume that Jon’s story is not finished) … but if what you suggest is true, that “The cold” is what makes the whites (I’m with you on this theory as well) … then Jon’s essentially a lost cause? The Cold has his body and he won’t be able to reclaim it?

So I guess my question boils down to this: Has “The Cold” effectively breached The Wall by the end of ADwD?

Great theory all in all, by the way. Even if I don’t necessarily agree with all of it, it’s very fun to speculate and it further enhances the reading experience. :D

And now I’m back to finish reading up on this thread …

Thank you very much for posting,it is always good to have another pair of eyes.I was directed to the Winterfell thread by Redriver and i found it super interesting,i honestly think there is a link but figuring out where the link is is the problem.

On hersey of those of us that believe in "The Cold" theory have varied views were it may originate.

Some thing its natural biological like a cold extremaphile(bacteria),like myself i believe it is natural magical.We have been given the opportunity to view this land from a human point of view and forget that this land had its own rules prior to man regardless of if the invaders (man) acknowledged,ascribe or know of the rules or environment they have now gone into.

But it is possible that if "the cold" is not natural then the next obvious cause could have been some breach and i believe the hospitality issue is very very important.

As to the Jon question my personal belief "is" that "the cold" has breached the wall because while physically it is standing it essentially has/is fallen/falling.The men of the NW are no longer true and the wall's ability to defend itself is dependent on the spirit of the men of the wall holding firm.i believe the magic that went into building the wall is tethered to Stark blood/presence on the Wall.(theory for another time).

Since "the cold" is attracted to dying and the dead i believe it will 'try" to take Jon's body.( leave that for the other theory).Him being able to fight it off to me is dependent on the connection with Ghost.If Jon is dying he may be strong enough to keep "the cold" from killing his body but "the cold" would have already touched it and i believe he will not be the same.

If he's dead dead dead as a door nail then that may be all she wrote. So i'm hoping and believe he is not dead,but he's still in danger(his body)

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I'm familiar with the theories in the heresy thread because, as I said, I lurk there frequently. I'm of the camp that the cold is of a supernatural phenomenon, that it was around during the Long Night, that it retreated back to The Lands of Always Winter afterwards and has been "hibernating" there so to speak, and that for whatever reason it's back now. And I do earnestly believe there is a reason it's heading back South, but I couldn't tell you what that reason is. George said we'd travel to the Lands of Always Winter soon and that's where I believe we will get a lot of answers to all the questions we have.



As for your theory on Jon, I remain skeptical but I admit that is because I am very biased where he is concerned. I'm hoping his story is not over and I'm concerned that if his body "dies" ... he will come back wrong.



That said ... your theory is very plausable. If the act of the NW murdering Jon is enough to break the seals, and if a battle ensues shortly therafter ... and "The Cold" is lingering about just waiting for people to drop dead so it can reanimate them ... well, we may not need a horn to bring down the wall after all. And that's a scary thought indeed.



A best case scenario in this instance would be that "The Cold" takes over Jon's body and when his soul or whatever you want to call it returns to reclaim it, there will be some kind of epic inner-POV battle and Jon will come back hopefully not too wrong ... if that makes sense. :cool4:


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I'm familiar with the theories in the heresy thread because, as I said, I lurk there frequently. I'm of the camp that the cold is of a supernatural phenomenon, that it was around during the Long Night, that it retreated back to The Lands of Always Winter afterwards and has been "hibernating" there so to speak, and that for whatever reason it's back now. And I do earnestly believe there is a reason it's heading back South, but I couldn't tell you what that reason is. George said we'd travel to the Lands of Always Winter soon and that's where I believe we will get a lot of answers to all the questions we have.

As for your theory on Jon, I remain skeptical but I admit that is because I am very biased where he is concerned. I'm hoping his story is not over and I'm concerned that if his body "dies" ... he will come back wrong.

That said ... your theory is very plausable. If the act of the NW murdering Jon is enough to break the seals, and if a battle ensues shortly therafter ... and "The Cold" is lingering about just waiting for people to drop dead so it can reanimate them ... well, we may not need a horn to bring down the wall after all. And that's a scary thought indeed.

A best case scenario in this instance would be that "The Cold" takes over Jon's body and when his soul or whatever you want to call it returns to reclaim it, there will be some kind of epic inner-POV battle and Jon will come back hopefully not too wrong ... if that makes sense. :cool4:

I agree with your sentiment on " the cold" for me its naturally supernatural and would be moving South every X thousand years wheter men were there or not. I could be wrong on the freqency but there does seem to be some pattern.

If Jon is touched I expect he'd come back different, hI'm being in Ghost in my mind will protect who he is as Jon .However, I believe his body will be altered.If Jon is also a "Dragon seed" as well as a Warg then " the cold s" affect on him may have some unexpected side effects-FrozenFire.The image of him clad in black ice for what it means symbolically might not be far off.

We have seen Dany and Bran have their transformation its time for Jon's

One thing for sure Jon is strong very strong and we've seen that I'm banking on him Winning that battle with "the cold" ....Fingers cross

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I'll get back to this theory eventually, I don't have the brainpower to think about it ATM. For now I' just say that the use of 'natural' for reanimating dead peope (or animals) is funny. I think I see what you mean by it in terms of natural magic vs worked magic, it's just funny and it keeps throwing me off.



On a related note, I find it odd that the CotF supposedly being all about balance live in intimate closeness (even symbiosis?) with the one lifeform that we're told is potentially immortal: the weirwood. Now, if anything, immortality suggests lack of balance to me. We have Maester Luwin telling Bran that they think even gods die, and we have the Kindly Man's exchange with Arya (Do you know of any folks who live forever? No.) So is Bloodraven exaggerating when he says weirwood can potentially live forever, or is something fishy going on there?


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Yep I know what you mean but from a balance point of view I can see it.

I'm not familiar with texts that say the Weirwoods are immortal, I think they act more like a repository of knowledge and a kind of axis in time and space in conjunction with a GS. But they from where I sit seem more symbiotically linked to GS than the COTF who seem more devotional.

If the Weirwoods are immortal there is no doubt there is a counter to them.Plus the heartrees more fit that description of being loooong lived and all it takes is some crackpot like Mel to say burn it.

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There are hints that another tree may counterbalance the weirwood - that other tree being the ebony/persimmon. Thus the weirwood/ebony doors at Tobho Mott's, at the House of Black and White, and at the House of the Undying. And the persimmon tree over Dany's pool in Meereen, under which Quaithe appears to reiterate her warnings and prophecies.

Ebony and persimmon trees fall under the generic name "Diospyros" - which is formed from Greek words meaning "divine fire."

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Ahh yes yes I forgot about that ebony wood from the house of black and white .Its placemenf suggest it is a Ying to yAng.

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OMG

From ADwD as Bran& co are trying to reach the CtF cave:

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame.

Almost the exact same wording as Mirri's dancing shadows... never noticed that before :dunce:

Please do i would be very interested to know how that turns out,there was a quote something like that with respect to Jon about anger coiling in him like a cold (blank) i can't remember what animal he used or to which incident only that it seemed odd and then i dismissed it.

Just posted a collection of instances in which Martin uses the "wreathed" figure. If you are interested, the topic is here: Wreathings in Flame, Mist, and Light

I've collected most of the uses of "writhing" imagery too, but not all of them (yet) - so I'm holding back on that and may post as a separate thread later.

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