Valyrian steel sword vs. armour?

[Jory Cassel]

The wiki says it's a greatsword - I think Dark Sister was the Bastard sword.

One SSM says greatsword, one says Bastard Sword. DS was a normal longsword, IIRC.

[Batman]

The wiki says it's a greatsword - I think Dark Sister was the Bastard sword.

Weird, that wasn't there last time I checked. But I don't remember any text that counters (or confirms it) it so I'll roll with it.

[Batman]

The wiki says it's a greatsword - I think Dark Sister was the Bastard sword.

This is interesting, the second heading I mean http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2999/

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yeah, except that this is nonsense. Most warhammers weighed a few pounds at most. And you don't need to lift it any higher than you would a sword or axe.

Yeah, no need to read anything but a bit embellishment into Ned's statement. It was a warhammer too heavy for him to use properly, but no more than that.

Very true, but the main focus was wether or not a vs sword would be good against plate and if it can pierce it better than a regular sword and my point was regardless of wether it is or not once u pierce the plate the sword is now stuck and your out not only a sword a vs sword at that not worth it

If it could pierce steel, it could be pulled back out as well. But it's pretty unlikely that it could, valyrian steel doesn't equal lightsaber.

[JonathanTheBold]

Yeah, no need to read anything but a bit embellishment into Ned's statement. It was a warhammer too heavy for him to use properly, but no more than that.

If it could pierce steel, it could be pulled back out as well. But it's pretty unlikely that it could, valyrian steel doesn't equal lightsaber.

Yes could pull it out but chances are someone's gonna kill you well your trying to pull your sword out

[Clockwork of House Orange]

I always imagined that a proper swordsman, a strong one, could slice through regular plate with a VS. Stabbing would work for sure, but it works with normal steel as well.

Imagine The Mountain wielding Ice + a huge shield. He could one-hand it np. Unbeatable.

Oh, one more thing. In theory, how awesome would Valyrian armour be? Would it be worth the effort? Super light, super strong. Costs more than the moon. xD

[mormont]

'Valyrian steel' is not a material: it's a magical technique for making swords abnormally strong and sharp. Since no VS armour has been shown to exist, we can reasonably infer that the technique doesn't work (or doesn't offer any advantage) in the manufacture of armour. So far as we know, it only works if you want to put an edge on something.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

'Valyrian steel' is not a material: it's a magical technique for making swords abnormally strong and sharp. Since no VS armour has been shown to exist, we can reasonably infer that the technique doesn't work (or doesn't offer any advantage) in the manufacture of armour. So far as we know, it only works if you want to put an edge on something.

I don't think this is quite right. Valyrian steel can be reworked by some Westerosi blacksmiths, blacksmiths who are unable to create Valyrian steel blades of their own. Which means that it's the steel itself upon which magic has been worked, turning it into Valyrian steel. So the technique creates the steel itself, which is a re-workable material. Possibly this material is not that useful for creating armor, or possibly it is too scarce to make it practical to create armor with it.

[mormont]

I don't think this is quite right. Valyrian steel can be reworked by some Westerosi blacksmiths, blacksmiths who are unable to create Valyrian steel blades of their own.

Right. But that does not mean that 'Valyrian steel' is a different material than regular steel - just that it is steel upon which this technique has been used.

The argument that VS is a material, but is simply too rare a material to make armour with it, makes some sense - particularly if you assume it offers no additional benefit against regular weapons, only VS weapons. But from the descriptions in the book and GRRM's comments in interviews, VS is just steel into which particular spells have been worked. These spells, as I say, may well be of such a nature that they offer no real benefit in making armour. That makes sense. GRRM has explicitly likened it to Damascus steel on a number of occasions. Damascus steel was a process of treating steel that offered an advantage in making edged weapons but no significant advantage in armour manufacture, so we can assume Valyrian steel is too.

We can easily reason that the secret of reworking Valyrian steel requires knowledge of how to retain the magics in the process, which doesn't necessarily imply that you also know how to create them.

[Lord Flashheart]

I agree with Mormont, VS is a technique for smithing like Damascus steel is a smithing technique in the real world. The steel is stronger, but its not a different material, just a different method of making it.

[Aethermancer]

Yeah, except that this is nonsense. Most warhammers weighed a few pounds at most. And you don't need to lift it any higher than you would a sword or axe.

I think Ned was referring to the fact that even as a warhammer, Robert's hammer was extremely heavy.

[Ser Areo Mace]

I think Ned was referring to the fact that even as a warhammer, Robert's hammer was extremely heavy.

Yeah Ned's comment of the hammer was to let us know how much of a beast Robert was in their youth.

[TheZone]

Yeah, except that this is nonsense. Most warhammers weighed a few pounds at most. And you don't need to lift it any higher than you would a sword or axe.

His war hammer is much different than a typical war hammer, by all accounts it was huge, since Ned could not even pic it up. You have to pick the hammer up really high to gain momentum.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

His war hammer is much different than a typical war hammer, by all accounts it was huge, since Ned could not even pic it up. You have to pick the hammer up really high to gain momentum.

That's embellishment. Robert was very strong, but still human, not the Hulk.

[Aethermancer]

Yeah, no need to read anything but a bit embellishment into Ned's statement. It was a warhammer too heavy for him to use properly, but no more than that.

If it could pierce steel, it could be pulled back out as well. But it's pretty unlikely that it could, valyrian steel doesn't equal lightsaber.

Actually you could get yourself in a bind, literally. Take a nail, and drive it through a bit of sheetmetal. Then pull back on the nail. Due to the deformation of the sheetmetal when you push the nail through, it will 'bite' into the nail when you try to pull it back. The same thing would happen with a piece of armor. A sword piercing the armor could easily get stuck when you tried to pull it back out.

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[Aethermancer]

That's embellishment. Robert was very strong, but still human, not the Hulk.

To be honest, I think it is slight embellishment, but we are also dealing with not-Earth here. Almost everything here is slightly 'more' than reality. The characters, the emotions, the physical characteristics....dragons :P

I also think the terminology is incomplete. There are warhammers that we think of, which are basically billed maces. It seems like Robert's Warhammer would be more accurately described as a maul (and a big one at that)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Nails are straight, but swords aren't.

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Furthermore, the sword has an edge to widen the hole. And if I can drive a nail into a bit of metal barehanded, I can pull it back barehanded as well. The hammer is the problem.

[EstEst]

VS is a technique for smithing like Damascus steel ... in the real world. The steel is stronger, but its not a different material, just a different method of making it.

Different technology --> different material. Damascus steel in the real world is a composite, made of pieces of different materials (=plates of iron /high-carbon steel/ iron/ steel/... etc.) folded and welded together, many and many times, just like Valyrian steel. I myself always thought that VS was some kind of Damascus, since technology is pretty much the same, and even the patterns on VS swords are described similar to those on Damascus blades, see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DamaszenerKlinge.JPG.

If your sword is pure high-carbon steel, it's very hard and sharp but very fragile, like ceramics, it would break to pieces at the contact with the plate armor.

If your sword is pure iron, it's soft and bendy and cannot be sharpen enough to cut even through leather armor.

But if your sword is a composite like Damaskus, it's hard like high-C steel and not so fragile. In addition, the edge of a Damaskus sword, after its sharpening, gets kind of saw-like, since the softer material (iron) is grinded out and what remains is teeth of high-carbon steel. Very hard, very sharp. Cuts easily through necks, limbs, and boiled leather. Cannot cut through the thick steel plate, though.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Addendum: Damast was replaced by better mono-steels. Basically, it was a make-do while steel production was still low-quality and very erratic.

[EstEst]

Addendum: Damast was replaced by better mono-steels. Basically, it was a make-do while steel production was still low-quality and very erratic.

Modern replicas of Damascus cut 8-mm iron nails. Does not seem low-quality to me.