In Stannis' fight w/ The Others...

[aceluby]

And they knelt to him, would he use them to take the IT?

I just thought of this and thought it would be an interesting discussion.

[Badjokessoldhere]

I mean, I love Stannis just as much as the next Stannis zealot, and I think he is extremely badass, but it would take quite a lot for the Others to kneel to him.

[Crowford]

...maybe.

Depends on the circumstances. Stannis has two motivations. He wants the throne because he considers it his right as Robert's brother, but he also seems to be pretty convinced that he has to play a larger part in some sort of battle between good and evil. He views himself as, so to speak, chosen twice. And so far those went pretty much hand in hand. He headed north because Melisandre told him that it was necessary for his battle against the Great Other, but he was also working toward subduing forces loyal to Tommen.

Now, the question is, what would happen if those two goals conflict? What would happen if (for example) something like the Great Other gave him more power than Melisandre ever did? What if a second prophet shows up and goes: "The Red Woman is wrong, you are destined to be the Champion of Ice and we will help you claim your rightful throne, and much more."

I can very much see Stannis being swayed by this. He seems to only follow R'hllor because of the power Melisandre has demonstrated. If she fails, he might be quite susceptible to something or someone else promising him power and playing on his insecurities as the least popular of the Baratheon brothers.

[jons nissa]

it would take quite a lot for the Others to kneel to him.

but if they did, he'd totally use them along with any other shadow babies melisandre can muster up. what is an "other" against the realm? on to king's landing!

[ejhawman]

Would totally not work. Melisandre would roast him, and his men have all bought into her faith, so he can't tell them they are turning cloak. He has staked his honor on championing the cause to the Lord of Light. Going over to darkness just like that makes him an evil king.

He would gain one army, and lose another. The Others would gain only one man, and he might as well be a wight.

[Crowford]

Would totally not work. Melisandre would roast him, and his men have all bought into her faith, so he can't tell them they are turning cloak. He has staked his honor on championing the cause to the Lord of Light. Going over to darkness just like that makes him an evil king.

He would gain one army, and lose another. The Others would gain only one man, and he might as well be a wight.

Presumably this would happen after Stannis has already lost Melisandre and his army.

Though for this theory to make sense, there has to be something special about him, otherwise he is no asset to the Others. His claim will be completely meaningless if he arrives with an army of undead - people might bend the knee because he is the guy with the huge unstoppable army, not because his brother was king. So he would indeed be just one man.

However, if there truly is power in King's blood, then maybe it's this power that would allow the Others to pass the wall, or to destroy it. Because then Stannis would suddenly be very much important.

And there is still the possible theory that Stannis is indeed chosen (Azor Ahai or something else), but that this plays out a lot differently than anyone (especially Melisandre) expected and includes Stannis enabling the Others invasion of Westeros.

[fangirl000]

Only if Stannis could guarantee they would 1) Remain loyal to him, and 2) not wreck anything that Stannis does not want wrecked.

Part of his motive in going to the Wall was to save the people from an encroaching threat that no one else cared enough to stop. There's no point in making the zombie hoard your army if they are going to destroy you and/or your kingdom in the process of getting you what you want.

Also, would the zombies remain loyal after he took the throne? It doesn't make much sense if, after you win, you have to turn around and fight the zombies anyway with an army that might shatter apart into factions again at any moment.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Normally I'm not a fan of these type of hypotheticals but this reads like something straight out of one of those "Stannis = Chuck Norris" memes. Therefore I love it.

But yeah, probably not gonna happen.

[Badjokessoldhere]

but if they did, he'd totally use them along with any other shadow babies melisandre can muster up. what is an "other" against the realm? on to king's landing!

Stop watching the series!!!

Heh this made me laugh though :)

[jons nissa]

Stop watching the series!!!

Heh this made me laugh though :)

i love the series but book stannis also is willing to kill an innocent because melisandre says it will save the realm. she goes on to argue with davos about a man willing to kill his cow and how inappropriate such a sacrifice would be until davos puts an end to the madness.

my comment was tongue-in-cheek but the essence of it is true. stannis is willing to do unorthodox things to win the throne. it is his right no matter what.

[Badjokessoldhere]

i love the series but book stannis also is willing to kill an innocent because melisandre says it will save the realm. she goes on to argue with davos about a man willing to kill his cow and how inappropriate such a sacrifice would be until davos puts an end to the madness.

my comment was tongue-in-cheek but the essence of it is true. stannis is willing to do unorthodox things to win the throne. it is his right no matter what.

Oh I know, it's far from perfect, but it's not as if these calls aren't torturing him.

Read the chapters in which he talks about Edric Storm. I'm a huge Stannis fan, but after watching the series I actually totally forgot how much he fought against it himself.

I thinks he genuinely believes killing this one guy is going save thousands.

I've also kinda wanted to start a thread about how when Davos goes "I put him on a ship a half hour ago!", Stannis makes no attempt at actually trying to get Edric back. If he really wanted to sacrifice him he could have at least gotten Salladhor Saan to go after him. Instead he's like "meh you're right."

[jons nissa]

I thinks he genuinely believes killing this one guy is going save thousands.

which is why i don't think he would object to using the others.

i agree, he didn't hear the idea and say "yeah, i'm ok with killing the boy." he thought about it and then said, "yeah, i'm ok with killing the boy because i'm told it will be for everyone's best interest." for me, there's not a huge difference.

[Badjokessoldhere]

And round and round we go.

Frankly, if some priestess showed up, predicted the future at 100% accuracy, and told me I had to kill a boy to save the world, I'd probably a lot less reluctant than Stannis was.

[E-Ro]

Well, this is very unlikely but if the others were found to be more then just evil things that wanted to kill he would use them. Provided he can control them, and they dont cause any damage to innocents, i think he would. It would be no different from using a dragon, in fact, he could use them to fight dragons!

[jons nissa]

And round and round we go.

Frankly, if some priestess showed up, predicted the future at 100% accuracy, and told me I had to kill a boy to save the world, I'd probably a lot less reluctant than Stannis was.

which is the point i think grrm wante to make. when the small council discussed the life and death of dany, ned held onto his position that she should be allowed to live even when the rest said it was one life against the realm. ned said she was an innocent and her life has value. stannis is faced with the same dilemma and he says the realm has more value than one life.

i would side with ned since i value peace, life and humanity more than power and ruling. what's more, it's never made clear how edric's life will save the realm. raise a dragon? a mega shadow baby? stannis is grasping at straws in desperation. at least it's clear how dany's death would help and ned still argued for her life. i'm more aligned with ned's thinking.

[E-Ro]

which is the point i think grrm wante to make. when the small council discussed the life and death of dany, ned held onto his position that she should be allowed to live even when the rest said it was one life against the realm. ned said she was an innocent and her life has value. stannis is faced with the same dilemma and he says the realm has more value than one life.

i would side with ned since i value peace, life and humanity more than power and ruling. what's more, it's never made clear how edric's life will save the realm. raise a dragon? a mega shadow baby? stannis is grasping at straws in desperation. at least it's clear how dany's death would help and ned still argued for her life. i'm more aligned with ned's thinking.

Ned was arguing with far more intelligent(politically speaking ofc) men. Had the dothraki invaded, thousands would have died. And not just soldiers wither, but innocent women raped, farmers, kids enslaved, etc. Ned, would have had dany killed in a second if he was 100% certain she was coming.

As for stannis thoughts on edric.

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold & heavy on the head but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.

”He is one baseborn boy, against all the boys of westeros, and all the girls as well. Against all the children that might ever be born in all the kingdoms of the world.”

“Edric—“ He started. “—Is one boy! He may be the best boy that ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the painted table. “How many boys live in westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies… a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone… She speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more then I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?”

Its clear at this point. Everything mel has predicted has come true, he has seen her power first hand, and it is very real. you say you value peace, life, and humanity more then power and ruling. Its funny that you say that, because that is exactly what stannis is fighting for. Hes fighting for humanity, to save millions. He is not thinking of sacrificing edric for the fuck of it.

[Badjokessoldhere]

With Dany, there's no immediate threat, with Edric, people are dying and starving and the kingdom is bleeding. Melisandre makes Stannis feel like he has to do this to stop all that- Stannis is hounded by that. Blame him for not being clever enough to see through her BS? Sure, but the leeches thing must have been pretty impressive (and I'm not 100% convinced that they had 0 effect)

Put it this way- what if burning Edric actually yielded a dragon that Stannis could have used to end all the fighting? Then it seems Stannis doomed thousands to death to keep his honor clean. A bit selfish no?

I mean, it's a total utilitarian-type of question. Martin enjoys throwing them regularly at Stannis when he's up against the wall. Would be nice if someone got put into that stark of a situation sometimes. Dany gets dwagonz FO FREE and Stannis can't assassinate a single dude without compromising his soul.

[jons nissa]

Melisandre makes Stannis feel like he has to do this to stop all that- Stannis is hounded by that. Blame him for not being clever enough to see through her BS? Sure, but the leeches thing must have been pretty impressive

they were impressive and yes, melisandre makes stannis believe. interesting that davos is never convinced by the show.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Stannis going mad and becoming a Night's King. I could see that, yeah.

Everybody deserts him, even Mel, declaring Jon AAR and King in the North. Then Stannis goes nuts and starts fucking an Other.

LOL

[jons nissa]

Dany gets dwagonz FO FREE and Stannis can't assassinate a single dude without compromising his soul.

just saw this. dany does not get dragons for free. she had to sacrifice her son, her husband and herself ( although she survived) to get it. killing the witch was hardly a sacrifice for her but provided the last ingredient to get it. given the knowledge of the cost for her dragons, i'm not sure dany would have paid it.