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Suzanna Stormborn

What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

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I am including as much info as I could find on Aerys and Joanna and Tywin’s relationships with each other. There are some very telling points and some unanswered questions. Also the treatment and attitude Aerys has towards Tywin changes a great deal over the years of Aerys’ reign and I think the reason is because Aerys respects Tywin greatly at the beginning when he makes him The Hand of the King, but then later Aerys feels like Tywin is getting too powerful, so he cuckold’s Tywin and afterwards Tywin becomes a joke in Aerys’ eyes.


Wiki about Aerys and Tywin. Chronologiocal order.

Aerys II begins his reign 262AL

Aerys II's reign began with great promise. Under his father and grandfather, the court at King's Landing had become stuffy, filled with old men. Aerys II brought sweeping changes, replacing many at court with younger faces. Aerys, impressed by the ruthlessness of the young Lord Tywin Lannister with dealing with houses rebelling against Casterly Rock, named Tywin as the King's Hand.

Cersei and Jaime born 266AL
Feast for Crows Cersei POV—Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one daywhen he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King’s Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King’s Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in Kin’s Landing when she and Jaime were young. If he wept when they brought him word of his father’s death, he did it where no one could see the tears.

The first ten years of Aerys' rule were peaceful. The realm recovered from the tragic events at Summerhall and grew both rich and strong. Closer ties were established with Dorne when Prince Rhaegar was married to Princess Elia Martell (to the disquiet of Lord Tywin, who had hoped to marry his daughter Cersei to Rhaegar). However, around 270 AL some problems arose which turned the character of Aerys' reign into something very different.
However, Aerys came to regret this choice (appointing Tywin hand)- not because of any lack of competence on Tywin's part, but rather the opposite. He proved to be a brilliant administrator, and as Hand his reputation for brutal effectiveness became so well-known and so widely respected that popular rumor held it was Tywin, not Aerys, who truly ruled the realm. (Lord Tywin's captain of the guard, Ser Ilyn Payne, would eventually lose his tongue at Aerys' command for repeating this boast.) Jealous of the respect and fear accorded to Tywin, Aerys resolved to rely less on his Hand.--Wiki

So right here, at this point in the timeline, Aerys decides to lower Tywin in a way that can never be undone. He impregnates Joanna with a Targaryen. Tyrion was born in late 272 or early 273. Which means that at some point in early to mid 272 Joanna was at Kings Landing for some reason. What that reason is? We dont know yet....Maybe it was a wedding or a birth in court. But far more likely, IMO it was the 10 year anniversary party of Aerys' reign as KIng. He became king in 262, so it would stand to reason he would have a 10 year anniversary party in 272 and his Hand Tywin would obviously be there, and since Joanna and Rhaella were friends it make absolute sense that Joanna would be there with Tywin to celebrate Aerys, whom she has also known and been friends with most of her life.

Tyrion Born late 272 to early 273AL—Joanna Lannister dies

In 276AL, Lord Tywin staged a tourney in the king's honor. There he proposed a marriage between his daughter Cersei and Prince Rhaegar. However, Aerys' fear of Tywin's power and ambition led him to reject the offer rudely, saying that Tywin was a mere servant of the crown, and no servant's daughter was fit to marry a prince of royal blood. Tywin would not forget the insult.

Clearly something happened Between the years of 270AL and 276AL that changed Aerys’ mind about Tywin Lannister. He began treating him differently, he was the butt of Aerys’ jokes, Aerys lost all respect for him, although Tywin had bailed Aerys out of trouble on more than one occasion. Tywin was a smart, competent and ruthless Hand who Aerys admired and respected enough to make him Hand and the first few years they appeared to have gotten along. But then IMO Aerys could no longer control his crush on Joanna and they had a tryst or he raped her, after that he completely lost respect for Tywin and insulted him every chance he got.
Because Aerys didn’t go officially “mad” until later that same year as the tourney mentioned above when he was imprisoned during the Defiance of Duskendale. So Whatever happened that made Aerys loose all respect for Tywin happened before he officially went crazy in 276AL.
In late 276AL, Lord Denys Darklyn of Duskendale, possibly influenced by his Myrish wife, withheld port taxes from the crown. Eager to demonstrate his ability to handle the situation without the help of his Hand, Aerys decided to settle the issue personally, a decision that would backfire horribly. Taking a small force that included only one Kingsguard knight, Aerys personally marched to Duskendale to arrest and execute Lord Denys. Denys panicked and took the king prisoner. Lord Tywin was left to resolve the crisis himself, amassing an army and laying siege to the town in what became known as the Defiance of Duskendale. The situation remained in a stalemate for six months, with Denys threatening to execute the king at the first sign that Tywin intended to storm the town. Finally, Ser Barristan Selmy of the Kingsguard staged a daring infiltration and managed to rescue the king.—Wiki

281AL Tourney at Harrenhal, Knight of the Laughing Tree, where Jaime was raised to the Kingsgaurd under his fathers extreme duress but silent compliance.
A moon's turn later, Jaime was raised to the Kingsguard by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower in a ceremony during the Tourney at Harrenhal, making him the youngest Knight to ever to be raised to the order.[1] That night, however, King Aerys soured the honor by sending him back to King's Landing to guard Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys, depriving him of the chance to participate in Lord Whent's tourney. Jaime realized then that the King had only chosen him for the Kingsguard as a slight against Lord Tywin, of whom Aerys was insanely jealous, to rob him of his heir. Furthermore, the plan failed to bring Jaime and Cersei closer together, as they had intended. When Lord Tywin, furious at this turn of events, resigned as Hand and returned with Cersei to Casterly Rock. Jaime remained at court, guarding the King.—Wiki about Jaime/Aerys/Tywin

Feast for Crows—‘Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, "If we need gold, His grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot." Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father's eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.’--Cersei about their father.
Lickspittles--Noun
A person who behaves obsequiously to those in power.

.---(meaning people who laugh when their superior laughs, these men were laughing at Tywin because they were following Aerys' lead. As you can see by Rykker's actions they, (the lickspittles) are still scared or at least intimidated by Tywin, but Aerys is not. At this point Tywin is just a big joke to him. No one else in the seven kingdoms laughs at Lord Tywins face that I can recall.

Feast for Crows—‘My lord father had no use for whores, she thought. After our mother died he never touched a woman.—Cesei about her mother and father.

Of course she was wrong, she thought this right after she found Shae’s dead body in her father’s bed, but we all know how rough Tywin Lannister is with whores, so if he found out Joanna had slept with someone else rape or not, there is no telling what he would do. Seems like a pretty good reason for Joanna to keep it a secret from Tywin.

Hints about the marriages of Tywin/Joanna and Aerys/Rhaella
Aerys was born to Prince Jaehaerys, the second son of King Aegon V. While still a teenager, Aerys was married to his sister Rhaella in accordance with the family tradition of dynastic incest. The marriage was arranged by their grandfather the king, who was motivated by a prophecy that he interpreted to mean the Prince that was Promised would be born of their line. According to Ser Barristan Selmy, who was present at the wedding, there was no fondness between the two siblings.--wiki

DWD
“Prince Aerys . . . as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the . . . the liberties your father took during the bedding.”--Barristan

Ser Barristan Selmy claimed that in her youth she was in love with Ser Bonifer Hasty, who wore her favor and won a tournament where he named Rhaella Queen of Love and Beauty. The pair had a passionate but ultimately doomed relationship, as Ser Bonifer was of too low birth to be seriously considered as a suitor for a Targaryen princess.

Later in her life, at the command of her father Jaehaerys II, Rhaella married her brother Aerys at some time before 259AL. Jaehaerys was influenced by a woods witch brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones, who prophesied that the Prince that was Promised would be born from their line. According to Ser Barristan, there was no fondness between Aerys and Rhaella on the day of their wedding.
On the same day her grandfather and his eldest son perished in the Tragedy at Summerhall, Aerys became Crown Prince and Rhaella gave birth to their first child, Rhaegar.

In later years, as Aerys' insanity began to set in, he grew sexually abusive toward Rhaella. He developed a sexual fetish for fire and death, only sleeping with Rhaella after he had executed someone by burning. The final time, just before the the queen was sent to Dragonstone to escape the coming siege of King's Landing by the rebels, Jaime Lannister of the Kingsguard recalls listening to Rhaella cry as the king raped her. In the morning, the queen's maids reported seeing scratches, bruises and bite marks all over her body.
According to Barristan Selmy, Rhaella did her best to protect her younger son from the worst of Aerys' excesses, keeping her child oblivious to the fact his father was sliding deeper into madness.
When the city fell two weeks later, she and her younger son Viserys became the last known surviving members of House Targaryen. Rhaella spent the duration of her pregnancy on Dragonstone, where she delivered her third child, Daenerys. She died shortly thereafter from the stress of giving birth.
When she was a princess, her ladies-in-waiting included Lady Joanna Lannister and the mother of Prince Doran Martell.Wiki about Rhaella, Aerys’ wife

So we know that Aerys and Rhaella’s relationship was not a loving one. We know that he liked to and was aroused by raping women. And to me it seems obvious that he would take liberties with anyone he wanted. And he had no qualms about specifically insulting or embarrassing Tywin Lannister.

Joanna/Tywin--Tywin seldom spoke of his wife but was much saddened by her death. He never remarried. According to his brother Gerion Lannister "The best part of Tywin died with her.’ Kevan later took over Joanna's role as Tywin's most trusted counselor. Wiki
According to Barristan Selmy, Aerys lusted for Joanna Lannister, something that caused further friction between the King and his Hand. At the wedding of Tywin to Joanna, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the First Night tradition was banned and took certain liberties in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride.--Wiki

SoS, Tyrion chap 38, Discussion with Oberyn Martell----‘A queer time to come visiting. His mother has dies giving him birth, so the the Martells would have found the Rock deep in morning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love b/n them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the 7 kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled lord Tywin. "He was not the same man after she died, Imp,' his uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her." Gerion had been the youngest of Lord Tytos Lannister's four sons, and the uncle Tyrion liked best.....’
.."I had just been born, what did you expect of me?"
"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been bored to King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."....................Lord Tywin had made himself greater than king Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."......."You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp.......You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' then Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter, ' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon."

Tyrion Chap 70, CoK, Oberyn and TL----"Were you aware that our mothers knew each other of old?"
"They had been at court together as girls, I seem to recall. Companions to Princess Rhaella?"

These are my reasons that I believe Tyrion is the son of Aerys. It has nothing to do with anything except that something happened which is never explained that made Aeyrs turn on Tywin right around the time of Tyrion's birth. he lost all respect for Tywin and considered him a flat out joke later on. So much so that he refused the offer of Cersei for Rhaegar in an extremely public and embarrassing way for Tywin. What else besides Aerys cuckolding Tywins wife could make him behave this way towards such a powerful, scary man who had helped Aerys and as far as we know had never done anything to Aerys that would incite of all this scorn and ridicule??

Dragon Dreams and Tyrion Lannister and Targaryens

There are a lot of mentioning of Dragon Dreams, not prophetic dreams, just a dream with a dragon in it. They come from a lot of the Targaryens we have met. Also in Dunk & Egg there are a lot of passages about Dragon Dreams. Absolutely the only people that have them in any of the books are Targaryens. No one else does and that is a fact. This is what Wiki says about Dragon Dreams.
‘Dragon dreams affect those with the blood of the dragon, who are known to have premonition-like dream ability - they are no ordinary dreams. They often involve dragons but not always.
Dragon dreams appear to have haunted those with the blood of the dragon throughout the generations; some more than others.
The Targaryens had these dreams as well as the Blackfyres’.--Wiki about Dragon dreams

Also it is interesting that the only people we get descriptions of Dragon dreams from are Targaryens that were born after the last dragons died, meaning none of the people having these dreams have ever actually seen a dragon in real life, the closest they have ever come is seeing the skulls in the throne room or a painting/drawing in a book. The only exceptions of this are the Dragon Dreams Dany has after her dragons are born. But she does have Dragon Dreams before hatching her dragons, so she is another example to back my theory. Of course you know where I am going with this……the ONLY person who ever mentions having had a Dragon Dream other than a known Targaryen is of course Tyrion Lannister. And it is not like we never hear about non-Targaryen dreams, several POV’s in the books have dreams, but none except the Targaryen’s involve Dragons at all. Even in D&E, Dunk has several dreams and although he is chasing dragon eggs and around a lot of Targaryens throughout his stories, he never once dreams of a DRAGON. I am not claiming any of these dreams are prophetic. All I am pointing out is that his character dreams of dragons just like the Targaryens. And to my knowledge no one except Targaryens ever mention dreams involving dragons of any kind, except Teora Toland form the Arianne gift chapter. It is hinted her family has had Targaryen’s in it, but it is not confirmed one way or the other who she descends from, so it is a grey area for this argument. Just want to cover my bases.
Dany GOT-----"The Dragon has three heads, there must be one more". --Her vision of Rhaegar in the HOTU


Dany GOT Dreaming---“Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood.
She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sweat.--

Dany GOT before her wedding--Newly wedded, when she is despairing in the Dothraki Sea, and feeling that she cannot go on, she dreams of a black dragon again.

“There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.”
SOS Dany---The night before the sack of Astapor on the Balerion Daenerys has what may be a prophetic dream:

That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.[1]

Sam FfC, Maester Aemon tells Samwell Tarly:

“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one. Aemon to Sam
Aemon has 3 brothers, Aegon V, Dareon Targaryen and Aerion Targaryen

From 'The Hedge Knight'
“Across the room, the lordling raised his head from the wine puddle. His face had a sallow, unhealthy cast to it beneath a rat's nest of sandy brown hair, and blonde stubble crusted his chin. He rubbed his mouth, blinked at dunk, and said, "I dreamed of you." His hand trembled as he pointed his finger. "you stay away from me, do you hear? You stay well away"--
Dareon Targaryen at the inn talking to Dunk

The Hedge Knight--"I dreamed of you," said the prince.
"You said that at the inn."
"Did I? Well it's so. My dreams aren't like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead."
"Did I kill it?"
"That I could not say, but you were there, and so was the dragon. We were the masters of dragons once, we Targaryens. Now they are all gone but we remain........"—Dareon Targaryen and Dunk

List of Characters who are known to have Dragon Dreams.
Dany, Maester Aemon, Rhaegar Tagrayen, Dareon Targaryen, Dameon Balckfyre, Aerion Targaryen, Teora Toland and Aegon V and Bloodraven says ‘there have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come.’ In reference to Dragon dreams. And then there is Tyrion Lannister having the dreams in the first section of GOT, which as we all know is full of hints for future storylines for a lot of characters, especially R+L=J. So why can’t there be small hints to A+J=T???

D&E The Mystery Knight
“A dragon would. The prince insists the egg will hatch. He dreamed it, just as he once dreamed his brother’s dead. A living dragon will win us all the swords that we would want.”---About Dameon Blackfyre (the prince)
“I’m not stupid ser.” Egg lowered his voice. “Someday the dragons will return. My brother Dareon dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid.”—Aegon V talking to Dunk
……………
“Now you mock me. A true knight would never mock his king.” The Fiddler sounded hurt. ‘ I hope you will put more faith in what I tell you when you see the dragon hatch.”
“A dragon will hatch? A living dragon? What, here?”
“I dreamed it. This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg, I dreamed it all, just as I once dreamed of my brothers lying dead. They were twelve and I was only seven, so they laughed at me, and died. I am two –and-twenty now, and I trust my dreams.”---Dameon Blackfyre and Dunk
………………………
“I’ve tried, m’lord. He’s a prince, though.”
“What he is,” said Bloodraven, ‘is a dragon. Rise, ser.”
Dunk rose.
“There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest,” Bloodraven said, “so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong.”—Bloodraven and Dunk

Arianne Chapter WoW
It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."
"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don’t be mad."
"I’m not. They’re coming."
"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"
Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

IT is not exactly clear who the Toland’s descend from or who Teora’s father is there is Targaryen blood in some of the Dornish houses, but I cannot say for sure if she has it or not, but this is what wiki says.
Teora unlike her sister is short, plump, and so shy. The only trait they share is there red hair. She seems to have prophetic dreams.—Wiki
When I researched I found that possibly one of her ancestors could be a son or daughter of Danerys Targaryen and Maron Martell or a bastard of Aegon IV by Cassella Vaith.

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping.—Tyrion’s dream from DwD

Jon and Tyrion in GOT----"What are you reading about?" he asked
"Dragons, ' Tyrion told him.
"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
"You did? ' the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bear skin aside and climbed to his feet. " I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion Guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."
................
'Most men,' the boy said. "But not you.'
'No, ' Tyrion admitted, 'not me. I seldom ever dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

A+J=T in Dance with Dragons(And a few excerpts from the WoW sample chapter)

I am now adding in Tyrion's journey across Essos in DwD there are four main points which are all hints to him being a Targaryen. His dreams in DwD, The way he is constantly moving away from his family and the Lannisters, random hints towards his dragon heritage and how he has been obsessed with dragons his entire life, and all the hints towards him being a monster/gargoyle/chimera type figure. Which he is, he is a half lion/half dragon dwarf with 2 different colored eyes. Duality is very important in Tyrion's story in Dance.

Tyrions Dreams in DwD

Tyrion's dreams are a huge part of his story in DwD. His sleep/dreaming is mentioned more than once in every single chapter except the last one, it is obviously very important or it would not be brought up so much. We know that Targaryens have Prophetic dragon dreams, some of Tyrions dreams seem borderline prophetic to me. Certainly the one where he has 2 heads, may of the others may just be casual dreams however he seems to have dragons in so many of his dreams, not just in DwD, but throughout his entire life. We see that he has always had bad sleep, always had fitful dreams which cause him to loose sleep. During the first half of DwD Tyrion is dreaming of dragons almost every time he sleeps, then he goes through a period of not remembering his dreams, then they switch to being dreams about his father.

‘Sleep had never come easily to Tyrion Lannister. Aboard that ship it seldom came at all. Aboard that ship it seldom came at all, though from time to time he managed to drink sufficient wine to pass out for a while. At least he did not dream. He had dreamed enough for one small life. And of such follies; love, justice, friendship, glory. As well dream of being tall. It was all beyond his reach, Tyrion knew now.”

“He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.”

“I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

“That night TYrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.”

“The dwarfs throat felt dry and raspy. He had dreamed….what had he dreamed? He did not remember,”

“They rode all night, with Tyrion sleeping fitfully, dozing against the pommel and waking suddenly.”

“Instead he drank water, and was condemned to sleepless nights and days of sweats and shakes. The dwarf sat up, cradling his head in his hands. Did I dream? All memory of it had fled. The nights had never been kind to Tyrion Lannister. He slept badly even on soft feather beds.”

“Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, “You are done with drink.”

“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested, Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.”

“How did you sleep?”

“Fitfully, good lady. I dreamed of you again.”

“He dreamt of his lord father and the Shrouded Lord, He dreamt that they were one and the same, and when his father wrapped stone arms around him and bent to give him his Grey kiss, he woke with his mouth dry and rusty with the taste of blood and his heart hammering in his chest.”

Tyrion shook his head to clear away the webs of dream.

The Sorrows are behind us. It was just a dream I dreamed I was drowning.”

“And the nights were worse. Tyrion slept badly at the best of times, and this was far from that. Sleep meant dreams like as not, and in his dreams the Sorrows waited, and a stony king with his father’s face.”

“Back in the cabin he shared with Jorah Mormont,Tyrion twisted in his hammock for hours, slipping in and out of sleep. His dreams were full of grey, stony hands reaching for him from out of the fog, and a stair that led up to his father.”

(Maester AemonFFC/DwD) "I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . .

Tyrion moving away from house Lannister in his thoughts and feelings

Tyrion no longer relates to anyone in his family, he basically hates them all (with the exception of his long lost uncle Gerion).

He especially hates his father, has no remorse for killing him, and would gladly do it again given the opportunity. tywin has never been kind to tyrion, never caring, never fair. treated him like shit his entire life, and tyrion eventually kills him for it. the irony is, of course, that Tywin is not his biological father. I used to think that Tywin knew about Tyrion and that's why he was so cruel to him his whole life, but then the question is raised, 'Why didn't Tywin kill him?'. after thinking of that I changed my mind that TYwin did not know, and it was a secret Joanna had kept. now I am not sure either way, there are hints that Tywin knew for sure. So I will officially remain undecided on that point until we have further literature.

“And you had best be careful what you say of my family, magister. Kinslayer or no, I am a lion still.”

That seemed to amuse the lord of cheese no end. He slapped a meaty thigh and said, “You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles.”

“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns of Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

I need a cup of wine, to wash the taste of Tywin from my mouth.”

“Lord Tywin was sitting on a privy, so I put a crossbow bolt through his bowels to see if he really did shit gold. He didn’t. A pity, I could have used some gold. I also slew my mother, somewhat earlier. Oh, and my nephew Joffrey, I poisoned him at his wedding feast and watched him choke to death. Did the cheesemonger leave that part out? I mean to add my brother and sister to the list before I’m done, if it please your queen.

“The king I slew was sitting on her throne, and all those I betrayed were lions, so it seems to me that I have already done the queen good service.”

“There is blood between Targaryen and Lannister. Why would you support the cause of Queen Daenerys?”

“For gold and glory,” the dwarf said cheerfully. “Oh and hate. If you had ever met my sister, you would understand.”

“No matter, Griff. You are no knight and I am Hugor Hill, a little monster. Your little monster, if you like. You have my word, all that I desire is to be leal servant of your dragon queen.”

“And how do you propose to serve her?

“With my tongue.” He licked his fingers, one by one. “I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you can call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime in battle. I know which lords are brave and which are craven, which are loyal and which are venal. I can deliver allies to her. And I know much and more of dragons, as your halfmaester will tell you. I’m amusing too, and I don’t eat much. Consider me your own true imp.”

“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of the gods,”

The gods must have been drunk when they got to me.”

“My father threw me down a well the day I was born, but I was so ugly that the water witch who lived down there spat me back.”

“All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in KL. That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high-table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.”

“The slave soldiers of Volantis were fiercely proud of their tiger stripes, Tyrion knew. Do they yearn for freedom? He wondered. What would they do if this child queen bestowed it on them? What are they if not tigers? What am I, if not a lion?”

“….but to kill your own sire? How could any man do that?

“Give me a crossbow and pull down your breeches, and Ill show you.” Gladly.

“You think this is a jape?”

“I think life is a jape. Yours, mine, everyone’s.”

“The older man was accused of formenting rebellion and spying for the dragon queen.”

“And the young one?”

“Killed his father.”

Tyrion gave the rotting head a second look. Why it almost looks as if those lips are smiling.

“Think of the dead who might still live if Mad Aerys only had two fellow kings to share the rule.”

Instead he had my father, Tyrion thought.”

“But what if there is a hell and my father is waiting for me?”

“…..my hands are crusted with old blood aye. Call me kinslayer, and you wont be wrong. Kingslayer, I’ll have to answer to that one as well. I have killed mothers, fathers, nephews, lovers, men and women, kings and whores. As inger once annoyed me, so I had the bastard stewed. But I have never killed a juggler, nor a dwarf, and I am not to blame for what happened to your bloody brother.”

“His lord father had nto welcomed any reminders of his son’s deformities, and such mummers as featured little folk in their troupes soon learned to stay away from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, at the risk of his displeasure. “

“I Understand.’ He found himself thinking of Jaime. Count yourself lucky. Your brother died before he could betray you.”

“What a fraud you are, Imp. You let a hundred guardsmen rape your wife, shot your father through the belly with a quarrel, twisted a golden chain around your lover's throat until her face turned black, yet somehow you still think that you deserve to live.” (WoW)

“He sighed. "I would sell my sister for a cup of wine."
"You would sell your sister for a cup of horse piss." That was so unexpected that it made him laugh aloud. "Is my taste for horse piss so well-known or have you met my sister?" (WoW)

"They use slave soldiers, why not slave commanders? That would ruin the contest, though. This is just a cyvasse game to the Wise Masters. We're the pieces." Tyrion canted his head to one side, considering. "They have that in common with my lord father, these slavers." "Your father? What do you mean?" (WoW)

References to Tyrion being a Monster/Gargoyle/Chimera

“Do I offend you sweetling? I am an offensive creature, as my father would be glad to tell you if he were not dead and rotting.”

“Have you ever bedded a monster before?

“What a wretched creature I’ve become.”

“Monsters should be larger, it seems to me. You are worth a lordship back in Westeros, little man. Here, I fear, your worth is somewhat less. But I think I had best help you after all.”

“You are too kind,” Tyrion gave her his sweetest smile. “Perhaps you would remove these charming iron bracelets as well? This monster has but half a nose, and it itches most abominably.”

“No matter, Griff. You are no knight and I am Hugor Hill, a little monster. Your little monster, if you like."

“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of the gods,”

The gods must have been drunk when they got to me.”

“All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in KL. That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high-table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.”

“They hacked off her brother’s head in the hope that it was mine, yet here Is sit like some bloody gargoyle, offering empty consolations. If I were her, I’d want nothing more than to shove me into the sea.”

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

References to Tyrion being Prophetic (a known rare Targaryen trait)

“I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

“He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen.”

“That’s a prophecy even I could make. “

“One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to forsee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targrayen. Griff will see that too, surely, he thought, surprised to find how much he cared.”

Random Hints and references regarding Tyrion to House Targaryen and how much research Tyrion has done on the subject of the Targaryen history and Dragons. Far more than anyone else in the books, including Dany.

Tyrion knows more about Dragons, dragon lore and dragon history than anyone else, he shames the Halfmaester by clearly knowing more details and specific books in reference to every single dragon story.

“He saw square brick towers, a great red temple, a distant manse upon a hill.”

--I believe this^^^ may be the manse that Dameon lived in while he was staying in Pentos during TRP.

“Tysha knew their number. Each of them had given her a silver stag, so she would only need to count the coins. A silver for each and a gold for me.”

“Perhaps you might smuggle me out under your skirts? I’d be so grateful; why, Ill even wed you. I have two wives already, why not three?”

“’You mistake me, I have no wish to die, I promise you. I have…….

‘You have nothing, ‘ finished Magister Illyrio, ‘but we can change that.”

__ To me this ^^^ is a statement about Tyrions whole life, he has ruined/destroyed the Lannister family, he hates them all and they all hate him. He can never go back to them. What he has here in Essos is a sister with Dragons, I think that is what Martin is referring to here. That we can change the fact that you have nothing to having a new family. A dragon family.

“Tyrion realized he would do well to be careful around Haldon Halfmaester. “Every dwarf is a bastard in his father’s eyes.

“No doubt. Well Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the mirror shield slay the dragon Urrax?

“He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye.”

Haldon was unimpressed. “Even Duck knows that tale. Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?”

Tyrion grinned. “Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble ….only the dragon was Syrax not Vhagar.”

“I fear that you’re mistaken. In The Dance of Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes—“

“—that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron’s squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra’s she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munken’s version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm’s end was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon’s brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?”

Haldon pursed his lips.

“The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author’s name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late.

"His other duty was anything but foolish. Duck has his sword, I my quill and parchment. Griff had commanded him to set down all he knew of dragonlore. The task was a formidable one, but the dwarf labored at it every day, scratching away as best he could as he sat cross-legged on the cabin roof.

Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the freehold, Galendro’s history of Valyria.”

He was less hopeful concerning Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns; Their Unnatural History. Barth had been a blacksmith’s son who rose to be King’s Hand during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. His enemies always claimed he was more sorcerer than septon. Baelor the Blessed had ordered all Barth’s writings destroyed when he came to the Iron Throne. Ten Years ago, Tyrion had read a fragment of Unnatural History that had eluded the Blessed Baleor, but he doubted that any of Barth’s work had found its way across the narrow sea. And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.”

“The dwarf knew he sounded like a westerman, and a highborn westerman at that, so Hugor must needs be some lordling’s by-blow. “

“Tyrion stretched out a hand for his dragon.”

Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”

--Ok so this is Drogon flying over Tyrions head, coincidence?? Coincidence that Drogon is this far away from home and that he happened to fly right over Tyrion when Tyrion was the only one looking who noticed the DRAGON that just flew over them? TYrion is the only POV (besides Dany) who has seen a dragon up to this point, can anyone really think this is a coincidence?

“One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to forsee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targrayen. Griff will see that too, surely, he thought, surprised to find how much he cared.”

“We need swift passage to Meereen.”

One word. Tyrion Lannister’s world turned upside down.

One word. Meereen. Or had he misheard?

One word. Meereen, he said Meereen, he’s taking me to Meereen. Meereen meant life. Or hope for life at least.”

--Yes Meereen is life, Meereen is where your family and destiny are, it's where Dany and the dragons are.

“Nyesses and Malaquo have turned away from the light, he says, their hearts darkened by the yellow harpies from the east. He says….”

Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons.”

“Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to her glory.”

“Plots within plots, but all roads lead down the dragons gullet.”

“Someone told me the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?”

“Dragons”

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

Direct foreshadowing towards Tyrion riding/taming/befriending Viserion.

Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it. Last game he had brought her out too soon and lost her to a trebuchet.”

“He moved his catapult again, closed his hand around Tyrion’s alabaster dragon, removed it from the board.”

--alabaster is a stone that is gold and white, just like Viserion.

“Dead men and dragons were moving through the sky, whilst warships crashed and clashed on Slaver's Bay.” (WoW)

"Three hundred yards from where he stood rose the Wicked Sister, her long arm swinging up with a clutch of corpses —chunk-THUMP—and there they flew, naked and swollen, pale dead birds tumbling boneless through the air. The siege camps shimmered in a gaudy haze of rose and gold, but the famous stepped pyramids of Meereen hulked black against the glare. Something was moving atop one of them, he saw. A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle." (WoW)

"Something's happening." He went outside to discover what it was. Dragons.
"The green beast was circling above the bay, banking and turning as longships and galleys clashed and burned below him, but it was the white dragon the sellswords were gawking at. Three hundred yards away the Wicked Sister swung her arm, chunk-THUMP, and six fresh corpses went dancing through the sky. Up they rose, and up, and up. Then two burst into flame.
The dragon caught one burning body just as it began to fall, crunching it between his jaws as pale fires ran across his teeth. White wings cracked against the morning air, and the beast began to climb again. The second corpse caromed off an outstretched claw and plunged straight down, to land amongst some Yunkish horsemen. Some of them caught fire too. One horse reared up and threw his rider. The others ran, trying to outrace the flames and fanning them instead. Tyrion Lannister could almost taste the panic as it rippled out across the camps.” (WoW)

"By the time Plumm and his companions came galloping back from the camp of the Girl General, the white dragon had flown back to its lair above Meereen." (WoW)

"The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red. "All hail our beloved queen, Daenerys." Be she alive or be she dead. He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned. "We have always been the queen's men," announced Brown Ben Plumm. "Rejoining the Yunkai'i was just a plot."(WoW)

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I thought the consensus of people left alive is that Aerys grew jealous of Tywin's management skills and the respect he was getting for them (from guys like Ilyn Payne), so went out of his way to get back at Tywin for taking too much power.

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I thought the consensus of people left alive is that Aerys grew jealous of Tywin's management skills and the respect he was getting for them (from guys like Ilyn Payne), so went out of his way to get back at Tywin for taking too much power.

:agree: This.

i dont think he ever had any respect for him

:agree: And that.

In combination, it's deadly.

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I thought the consensus of people left alive is that Aerys grew jealous of Tywin's management skills and the respect he was getting for them (from guys like Ilyn Payne), so went out of his way to get back at Tywin for taking too much power.

That and he was insulted when Tywin wanted to marry Cersei to Rhaegar. He viewed Tywin like a good butler, not as a strong right hand and an equal.

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:agree: This.

:agree: And that.

In combination, it's deadly.

If he never had any respect he hardly would have appointed him Hand of the King.

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If he never had any respect he hardly would have appointed him Hand of the King.

You mean like the deep respect Cersei feels for Orton Merryweather, and Kevan feels for Mace?

Both believe their hands to be incompetent oafs. Aerys probably didn't believe Tywin incompetent, but I can't imagine he ever thought that he owed Tywin respect.

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You mean like the deep respect Cersei feels for Orton Merryweather, and Kevan feels for Mace?

Both believe their hands to be incompetent oafs. Aerys probably didn't believe Tywin incompetent, but I can't imagine he ever thought that he owed Tywin respect.

Then he was the only person in the kingdom who felt that way, as I pointed out in the OP. People were flat out scared of TYwin. it is false to say that aerys thought of Tywin the same way As Cersei thought about Orton. And we are talking about Aerys and tywin specifically not all hands that have come and gone.

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I dislike this theory the most out of all theorys, not yours in particular but any theory surrounding tyrion is a targ.

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Then he was the only person in the kingdom who felt that way, as I pointed out in the OP. People were flat out scared of TYwin.

Yeah, being a king will sometimes make you disdain someone other people fear... and in fact, your theory is built on the assumption that Aerys lost the respect for Tywin he once had, so I wonder why you try to paint an Aerys without respect for Tywin as an impossibility.

it is false to say that aerys thought of Tywin the same way As Cersei thought about Orton. And we are talking about Aerys and tywin specifically not all hands that have come and gone.

Indeed, that's why I highlighted the differences between them as well as the similarities.

However, they do serve as examples why the reasoning you gave (that appointment as Hand is proof of respect) is nonsense.

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Yeah, being a king will sometimes make you disdain someone other people fear. BTW fear and respect can be quite distinct emotions.

Indeed, that's why I highlighted the differences between them as well as the similarities.

However, they do serve as examples why the reasoning you gave (that appointment as Hand is proof of respect) is nonsense.

I agree that not all Hand's who are posted are posted out of respect. But i do not think that Aerys would be so flippant with such an important role during his reign. i think he cared much more than say Cersei, who only appointed people she believes are 'in her pocket' and not at all for their capabilities or knowledge of ruling a kingdom.

Aerys, impressed by the ruthlessness of the young Lord Tywin Lannister with dealing with houses rebelling against Casterly Rock, named Tywin as the King's Hand.

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Aerys, impressed by the ruthlessness of the young Lord Tywin Lannister with dealing with houses rebelling against Casterly Rock, named Tywin as the King's Hand.

I think the fact that Aerys and Tywin were friends at one point, also factored into his decision to make him Hand.

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Even though people dislike this theory, it is still possible, I don't mind Tyrion being a targ...secret targs ftw

See my thing is, this isn't really a 'secret targ' it's more an accidental Targ, a bastard targ, which there are a lot of out there. many of the Targ rulers were man-whores who had lots of bastards, just like Robert Baratheon. IMO Jon Snow is the only 'secrect Targ' he is the one all the build up is about. Tyrion was just an accident caused by Aerys trying to downgrade/belittle/cuckold his upjumped Hand.

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Yes Aerys respected Tywin at some point. They seem to have been childhood friends. Tywin, Joanna and Aerys all grew up together in the Red Keep.

The common interpretation is that Aerys became jealous. Even the commoners whispered that Tyrion was a punishment for Tywin setting himself above the king. So Aerys wanted to constantly put him in his place. This is from what we know so far, but there could be more to it.

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I still don't think Tyrion is a Targ, it's nothing to do with you, but I just don't like it.

It's not like Jon where he has loads of hints that he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna through out all the books.

Funny thing is I remember you saying you were going to do a thread on Tyrion being a Targ. That must have been months ago. No idea why I remember it though.

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See my thing is, this isn't really a 'secret targ' it's more an accidental Targ, a bastard targ, which there are a lot of out there. many of the Targ rulers were man-whores who had lots of bastards, just like Robert Baratheon. IMO Jon Snow is the only 'secrect Targ' he is the one all the build up is about. Tyrion was just an accident caused by Aerys trying to downgrade/belittle/cuckold his upjumped Hand.

good point so tyrion would still not be a targ

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''You are my most leal subject, but a King does not marry his heir to his servants daughter.''

- I don't think relations between them went too well after that. Aerys probably seen Tywin was surpassing him in respect, and tried to put him in his place. Whether he took right with Joanna is another story, but not entirely out of question...

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What else besides Aerys cuckolding Tywins wife could make him behave this way towards such a powerful, scary man

Tyrion was just an accident caused by Aerys trying to downgrade/belittle/cuckold his upjumped Hand.

Wait, I thought at first that you were saying that Aerys lost his respect because he successfully impregnated Joanna.

Now you say that on the contrary he slept with Joanna to "belittle his upjumped Hand"... which isn't exactly showing tremendous respect. So which direction do you want to argue?

I agree that not all Hand's who are posted are posted out of respect. But i do not think that Aerys would be so flippant with such an important role during his reign. i think he cared much more than say Cersei, who only appointed people she believes are 'in her pocket' and not at all for their capabilities or knowledge of ruling a kingdom.

Yes, as I said before Aerys believed Tywin to be competent. Does that mean he respected him as a person? I believe that distinction could be useful to you.

There are tons of people who disdain those they believe to be competent. Ned knows LF to be competent, Jon C knows Varys to be competent, Tywin himself knows Gregor to be competent at what he does... yet at the end of the day do they respect them as a person?

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I still don't think Tyrion is a Targ, it's nothing to do with you, but I just don't like it.

It's not like Jon where he has loads of hints that he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna through out all the books.

Funny thing is I remember you saying you were going to do a thread on Tyrion being a Targ. That must have been months ago. No idea why I remember it though.

Lol, yeah I have been putting this together for a while. I have like 15 more pages on it, but a lot of the other points are way to vague and are open to serious put-downs, so I took what I thought were the strongest points in my paper. I am cool with people not agreeing with me, I just wanted to put forth the literature that makes me believe it.

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