What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

[Dofs]

People, there is another way for Tyrion to become a dragon rider without having a Targ blood. This way is with the help of one specific plot device, that, (surprise, surprise) is being carried exactly to Tyrion's current location.

[Bael's Bastard]

People, there is another way for Tyrion to become a dragon rider without having a Targ blood. This way is with the help of one specific plot device, that, (surprise, surprise) is being carried exactly to Tyrion's current location.

Exactly, that is yet another possibility if Tyrion is to ride a dragon. Being the son of Aerys is far from the only plausible way for Tyrion to ride a dragon.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Short of dna test and the Mauri Povich Show, The evidence in the world book makes it so that Aerys as fathering any Lannister is a 99% probably untrue.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

All 3 are the product of Tywin & Joanna Lannister.

Not everyone is secretly a gay Targaryan warged by bloodraven living under a secret identity. :)

Um excuse me? Gay? dont protest too much.

Short of dna test and the Mauri Povich Show, The evidence in the world book makes it so that Aerys as fathering any Lannister is a 99% probably untrue.

Well I think you should re-read based on what I have heard, and the book has not come out yet, you may want to think about spoiler tags.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Short of dna test and the Mauri Povich Show, The evidence in the world book makes it so that Aerys as fathering any Lannister is a 99% probably untrue.

How Tywin would react: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt2i0ts-uck

[UnmaskedLurker]

It isn't a stretch. There are non-Targaryen houses that have Targaryen ancestry from legitimate marriages with Targaryens or non-Targaryens who had Targaryen ancestry from legitimate marriages with Targaryens, and so on. There are non-Targaryens who have Targaryen ancestry outside of marriages, whether bastards acknowledged or passed off. There are names and there are genetics. Let's not put superficial limits on how people could come into Targaryen ancestry (whether enough to ride a dragon or not, assuming such ancestry is necessary to ride a dragon). The people who believe Aerys is Tyrion's father are not basing it on there having been a marriage between Aerys and Joanna, nobody expects Aerys to show up as Tyrion's father in a tree, yet some seem to think that a Targaryen must explicitly show up in the tree for there to be ancestry other than Aerys.

We can agree to disagree, but my point is that if Tyrion is a Head of the Dragon and a Dragon Rider and if (I admit a big if) he is able to be a Head of the Dragon and Dragon Rider due to Targ ancestry, I just don't see how an author slips in this Targ ancestry through some previously unknown affair between an ancient Lannister ancestor and a Targ. From a literary point of view, I just don't think it works. I admit that GRRM can write whatever he wants to write, but at a minimum, I would think he would give the readers a clue--like let the readers know about the Targ ancestor. That is why the Lannister family tree is useful.

As to the other possibilities (the "Nettles" exception or the dragon horn), while they might be ways for Tyrion to ride a dragon and not have Targ blood, I don't buy it. If GRRM writes it that way, fine--I just think those are red herrings. I admit I might be wrong.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It isn't a stretch. There are non-Targaryen houses that have Targaryen ancestry from legitimate marriages with Targaryens or non-Targaryens who had Targaryen ancestry from legitimate marriages with Targaryens, and so on. There are non-Targaryens who have Targaryen ancestry outside of marriages, whether bastards acknowledged or passed off. There are names and there are genetics. Let's not put superficial limits on how people could come into Targaryen ancestry (whether enough to ride a dragon or not, assuming such ancestry is necessary to ride a dragon). The people who believe Aerys is Tyrion's father are not basing it on there having been a marriage between Aerys and Joanna, nobody expects Aerys to show up as Tyrion's father in a tree, yet some seem to think that a Targaryen must explicitly show up in the tree for there to be ancestry other than Aerys.

Well I am guessing there wont be any Targs in the Lannister family tree. But yeah Aerys is the technical father of TYrion.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

As to the other possibilities (the "Nettles" exception or the dragon horn), while they might be ways for Tyrion to ride a dragon and not have Targ blood, I don't buy it. If GRRM writes it that way, fine--I just think those are red herrings. I admit I might be wrong.

I will very much admit to being wrong if I am, or if there is not enough evidence in the worldbook to add to the theory in my OP.

The question is will everyone else admit to being wrong if my OP is proven right?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The question is will everyone else admit to being wrong if my OP is proven right?

I'm a Taurus. I won't. :P

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm a Taurus. I won't. :P

Which side of this are you on? I can't remember if we have discussed ti before.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Which side of this are you on? I can't remember if we have discussed ti before.

Not our side.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which side of this are you on? I can't remember if we have discussed ti before.

I believe the three Lannisters are product of Tywin's infamous crotch. and they have no a bit of a targ blood.

Tyrion might get a dragon, but I wouldn't like it.

[Bael's Bastard]

We can agree to disagree, but my point is that if Tyrion is a Head of the Dragon and a Dragon Rider and if (I admit a big if) he is able to be a Head of the Dragon and Dragon Rider due to Targ ancestry, I just don't see how an author slips in this Targ ancestry through some previously unknown affair between an ancient Lannister ancestor and a Targ. From a literary point of view, I just don't think it works. I admit that GRRM can write whatever he wants to write, but at a minimum, I would think he would give the readers a clue--like let the readers know about the Targ ancestor. That is why the Lannister family tree is useful.

As to the other possibilities (the "Nettles" exception or the dragon horn), while they might be ways for Tyrion to ride a dragon and not have Targ blood, I don't buy it. If GRRM writes it that way, fine--I just think those are red herrings. I admit I might be wrong.

The author doesn't need to slip anything in. It has been established throughout the series that Targaryen and Valyrian ancestry is out there, in whatever amounts, at whatever distance from the source, through legitimate marriages and fooling around.

It may be that GRRM has chosen to make Tyrion Aerys' son, but that is much different than Aerys being the only possibly explanation if Tyrion is able to fly a dragon. That is merely working backward from an assumption, and discounting all the other possible explanations except one's preferred explanation.

Personally, I am inclined to think that Valyrian ancestry is necessary (with the exception of the dragon horn), and that Nettles had it (I sort of even like the theory that Daemon was really her father rather than lover).

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Every character in asoiaf is secrertly gay. Or the High Septon. Havent you read the boards?

The book isnt out officially til Tues.But it can be got & I did. haven't really spoiled anything that grrm hadn't already told us in the novels about Tywin and Aerys. I just dispelled some internet "theory". And even after the world book goes public some people will not be satisfied and find a reason to maintain their "theories."

[Bael's Bastard]

Well I am guessing there wont be any Targs in the Lannister family tree. But yeah Aerys is the technical father of TYrion.

I doubt there will be a Targaryen explicitly listed.

I also doubt that anyone fathered any of Joanna's children except Tywin.

[Kundry]

I will very much admit to being wrong if I am, or if there is not enough evidence in the worldbook to add to the theory ...

Well, honestly I don't think there will be enough evidence in WOIAF about it, but if there's an indication that Aerys and Joanna were in the same place around 271/272 then for me it would be another hint at that

[UnmaskedLurker]

The author doesn't need to slip anything in. It has been established throughout the series that Targaryen and Valyrian ancestry is out there, in whatever amounts, at whatever distance from the source, through legitimate marriages and fooling around.

It may be that GRRM has chosen to make Tyrion Aerys' son, but that is much different than Aerys being the only possibly explanation if Tyrion is able to fly a dragon. That is merely working backward from an assumption, and discounting all the other possible explanations except one's preferred explanation.

Personally, I am inclined to think that Valyrian ancestry is necessary (with the exception of the dragon horn), and that Nettles had it (I sort of even like the theory that Daemon was really her father rather than lover).

I am not working backwards at all. I read the original A+J=T thread without any view at all that Tyrion might be the bio-son of Aerys. After examining that evidence, as well as evidence pointed out in other threads, I became convinced that it was the most logical conclusion from the available evidence. It is not just one thing. It is not just that he might ride a dragon. It is that he seems to have some Targ traits that no other Lannister seems to have (pale hair, mismatched eyes, obsession with dragons, etc). It is the expression "head of the dragon" which to me suggests "of House Targaryen" and not someone with some "drop" of Targ blood. It is also the information about Aerys being interested in Joanna. None of this reasoning is "backward" or trying to fit the evidence to meet my preference. I don't really have a preference other than for a good story. Alternatives like explaining riding a dragon and being a head of the dragon due to an ancient unknown Targ ancestor just does not seem logical to me. It is not "backwards" reasoning--it is just a theory I find unconvincing on its own merits. But eventually, all will be confirmed. I just hope we don't have to wait another 10 years.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The author doesn't need to slip anything in. It has been established throughout the series that Targaryen and Valyrian ancestry is out there, in whatever amounts, at whatever distance from the source, through legitimate marriages and fooling around.

It may be that GRRM has chosen to make Tyrion Aerys' son, but that is much different than Aerys being the only possibly explanation if Tyrion is able to fly a dragon. That is merely working backward from an assumption, and discounting all the other possible explanations except one's preferred explanation.

Personally, I am inclined to think that Valyrian ancestry is necessary (with the exception of the dragon horn), and that Nettles had it (I sort of even like the theory that Daemon was really her father rather than lover).

I think we very clearly saw what a very distant ancestor being a Targrayen does for someone trying to ride a dragon, Nothing. Just ask that guy whose name was Quentyn. But that someone who is only a few generations removed, say like, having a Targ grandparent (or 2), which would make you 1/4 Targ, is enough to make the dragons like you.....Such as Brown Ben Plumm. He is the FIRST person the dragons have met with Targaryen blood besides Dany and this is how Viserion acts, they have acted this way with NO other people;

"Her captains bowed and left her with her handmaids and her dragons. But as Brown Ben was leaving, Viserion spread his pale white wings and flapped lazill at his head. One of the wings buffeted the sellsword in his face. The white dragon landed awkwardly with one foot on the man's shoulder, shreiked, and flew off again. "He likes you, ben, " said Dany.

"And well he night." Brown Ben laughed. "I have me a drop of the dragon blood myself, you know." (SOS)

"These at least she could rely on, or so she hoped....and Brown Ben Plumm as well, solid Ben with his grey-white hair and weathered face, so beloved of her dragons." (SoS)

"Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."

"My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood."

"Two drops. That or a cock six feet long." (DwD)

SO not only does Viserion like him only because he has Targ blood, but BRown Ben confirms that universal knowledge that dragons like People with dragon blood.

I'm sorry but GRRM spells this all out in the books, Targaryens/Valyrians ride dragons, a human needs the blood of the Targaryens to ride a dragon.

If you need Targaryen blood to ride dragons, thenm it would stand to reason that the MORE Targaryen blood you have, the better your chances. To me this is such an obvious point, and there is NO counter argument anywhere......

Then of course, the icing on the cake is Drogon coming to Tyrion while Tyrion is still on the Shy Maid, hundreds of miles from Meereen. Does anyone really believe this is all coincidence???? That is what I would call poor writing.

“Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”

--Ok so this is Drogon flying over Tyrions head, coincidence?? Coincidence that Drogon is this far away from home and that he happened to fly right over Tyrion when Tyrion was the only one looking who noticed the DRAGON that just flew over them? TYrion is the only POV (besides Dany) who has seen a dragon up to this point, can anyone really think this is a coincidence?

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

I'm more interested in having this discussion, as it were, after tues when the book is public and quoting textual evidence is acceptable.

The book is maybe not laid out like many of you anticipate.

Check the sectionon Aerys II.

Its told in a narrative. There are MANY gaps in that narrative. In my experience, literalists need only the tiniest gap to disregard author constructed implication and cram in their own fanfic ideas.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I don't think we can pin it down for sure, but there is a *very* good chance that BBP has less Targ blood in him than Quentyn