What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well, honestly I don't think there will be enough evidence in WOIAF about it, but if there's an indication that Aerys and Joanna were in the same place around 271/272 then for me it would be another hint at that

:) Sweet.

[sarah.jenice]

He discovered where whores go

[Dofs]

It is that he seems to have some Targ traits that no other Lannister seems to have (pale hair, mismatched eyes, obsession with dragons, etc). It is the expression "head of the dragon" which to me suggests "of House Targaryen" and not someone with some "drop" of Targ blood.

Well, about pale hair - Tommen has it too. (Although it could just mean that all siblings are Aerys' children).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't think we can pin it down for sure, but there is a *very* good chance that BBP has less Targ blood in him than Quentyn

Uh no I dont think so, BBP has (most likey) a full Targ grandparent, making him 1/4 Targ. Quentyn's Targ-blood goes back to the first Daenerys, like 7 or 8 generations. He would have very very little in him. Less than 1/100th percent

[Universal Sword Donor]

Uh no I dont think so, BBP has (most likey) a full Targ grandparent, making him 1/4 Targ. Quentyn's Targ-blood goes back to the first Daenerys, like 7 or 8 generations. He would have very very little in him. Less than 1/100th percent

The Targs he might be related to would be far older than a grandparent.

[Little and Less]

Not sure if anybody has mentioned this - but there are no dwarves in the Targ ancestary are there? I can't remember. But there are in the Lannister side (Lann the Cleaver?). Not to say it can't happen, but isn't somewhat genetic?

Although Tyrion has dragon dreams, he's also the only character that has seriously read a book about dragons. I'm trying to think of another character who has read anything related to dragons. Reading about them may inspire dreaming about them too. (He probably dreams about wine a lot too - maybe he's Dornish.)

Maybe the reason Targs dream about dragons a lot is because they talk about dragons a lot and refer to themselves as "dragons" - it may colour their thoughts and dreams.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The Targs he might be related to would be far older than a grandparent.

how do you figure?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not sure if anybody has mentioned this - but there are no dwarves in the Targ ancestary are there? I can't remember. But there are in the Lannister side (Lann the Cleaver?). Not to say it can't happen, but isn't somewhat genetic?

Although Tyrion has dragon dreams, he's also the only character that has seriously read a book about dragons. I'm trying to think of another character who has read anything related to dragons. Reading about them may inspire dreaming about them too. (He probably dreams about wine a lot too - maybe he's Dornish.)

Maybe the reason Targs dream about dragons a lot is because they talk about dragons a lot and refer to themselves as "dragons" - it may colour their thoughts and dreams.

JOanna was Tywin's first cousin. Tyrion has Lannister blood no matter what.

[Universal Sword Donor]

how do you figure?

We he says his blood comes from an Aegon. Aegon V's daughter is accounted for ((Rhaelle Baratheon), so we have to go back to Aegon IV or Aegon III. The timing alone makes impossible for a grandparent unless it's Aemon or Walder Frey type situation, and said conception of his ancestor puts it at or before the point where Dany I was married into the Martells.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We he says his blood comes from an Aegon. Aegon V's daughter is accounted for ((Rhaelle Baratheon), so we have to go back to Aegon IV or Aegon III. The timing alone makes impossible for a grandparent unless it's Aemon or Walder Frey type situation, and said conception of his ancestor puts it at or before the point where Dany I was married into the Martells.

Oh right the Aegon comment, BBP is not sure where his blood came from, and I don't think that Aegon is accurate at all. Tyrion seems to be very sure though, he says the comment about 'cock six feet long' because he believes Ossifer Plumm did not father a child, that he dies first and a child was born more than 9 months after he died. That a Targaryen is actually Viserys Plumm's father, and that the mother was also a Targ princess. Those would be BBP's great-grand parents, which means their child (his grandparent) would be 100% Targ, making him 1/4 Targ.

I do allow that it is possibly one further generation back and he is 1/8 Targ instead of 1/4.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Oh right the Aegon comment, BBP is not sure where his blood came from, and I don't think that Aegon is accurate at all. Tyrion seems to be very sure though, he says the comment about 'cock six feet long' because he believes Ossifer Plumm did not father a child, that he dies first and a child was born more than 9 months after he died. That a Targaryen is actually Viserys Plumm's father, and that the mother was also a Targ princess. Those would be BBP's great-grand parents, which means their child (his grandparent) would be 100% Targ, making him 1/4 Targ.

I do allow that it is possibly one further generation back and he is 1/8 Targ instead of 1/4.

So just tossing out the textual evidence? Gotcha

[Bael's Bastard]

I am not working backwards at all. I read the original A+J=T thread without any view at all that Tyrion might be the bio-son of Aerys. After examining that evidence, as well as evidence pointed out in other threads, I became convinced that it was the most logical conclusion from the available evidence. It is not just one thing. It is not just that he might ride a dragon. It is that he seems to have some Targ traits that no other Lannister seems to have (pale hair, mismatched eyes, obsession with dragons, etc). It is the expression "head of the dragon" which to me suggests "of House Targaryen" and not someone with some "drop" of Targ blood. It is also the information about Aerys being interested in Joanna. None of this reasoning is "backward" or trying to fit the evidence to meet my preference. I don't really have a preference other than for a good story. Alternatives like explaining riding a dragon and being a head of the dragon due to an ancient unknown Targ ancestor just does not seem logical to me. It is not "backwards" reasoning--it is just a theory I find unconvincing on its own merits. But eventually, all will be confirmed. I just hope we don't have to wait another 10 years.

I didn't say you worked backward, I said Aerys wasn't the only possibly explanation if Tyrion is able to fly a dragon, and that the notion that it is the only or most likely is merely working backward from an assumption, and discounting all the other possible explanations except one's preferred explanation.

Obviously GRRM included information in the books which indicate at least an interest in Joanna on Aerys' part. It is a possibility that there was something between them. But that doesn't mean any of Tywin's children were fathered by him. It is possible, but it is hardly the only way for Tyrion to ride a dragon. There are other possibilities, Targaryen ancestry entering his ancestry at some other point, the dragon horn.

And if Tyrion does ride a dragon without the horn, I am not sure that there will be any explicit statement telling us which ancestor of his (if any) allowed him to do it.

As far as features, Tyrion's nephew Tommen is described as having white blonde hair. And remember that while Tywin and Joanna were both Lannisters, they both had a parent that was not.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So just tossing out the textual evidence? Gotcha

lol no, just going by what TYrion said with such certainty, instead of what BBP admits he is not sure about.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think we very clearly saw what a very distant ancestor being a Targrayen does for someone trying to ride a dragon, Nothing. Just ask that guy whose name was Quentyn. But that someone who is only a few generations removed, say like, having a Targ grandparent (or 2), which would make you 1/4 Targ, is enough to make the dragons like you.....Such as Brown Ben Plumm. He is the FIRST person the dragons have met with Targaryen blood besides Dany and this is how Viserion acts, they have acted this way with NO other people;

"Her captains bowed and left her with her handmaids and her dragons. But as Brown Ben was leaving, Viserion spread his pale white wings and flapped lazill at his head. One of the wings buffeted the sellsword in his face. The white dragon landed awkwardly with one foot on the man's shoulder, shreiked, and flew off again. "He likes you, ben, " said Dany.

"And well he night." Brown Ben laughed. "I have me a drop of the dragon blood myself, you know." (SOS)

"These at least she could rely on, or so she hoped....and Brown Ben Plumm as well, solid Ben with his grey-white hair and weathered face, so beloved of her dragons." (SoS)

"Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."

"My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood."

"Two drops. That or a cock six feet long." (DwD)

SO not only does Viserion like him only because he has Targ blood, but BRown Ben confirms that universal knowledge that dragons like People with dragon blood.

I'm sorry but GRRM spells this all out in the books, Targaryens/Valyrians ride dragons, a human needs the blood of the Targaryens to ride a dragon.

If you need Targaryen blood to ride dragons, thenm it would stand to reason that the MORE Targaryen blood you have, the better your chances. To me this is such an obvious point, and there is NO counter argument anywhere......

Then of course, the icing on the cake is Drogon coming to Tyrion while Tyrion is still on the Shy Maid, hundreds of miles from Meereen. Does anyone really believe this is all coincidence???? That is what I would call poor writing.

“Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”

--Ok so this is Drogon flying over Tyrions head, coincidence?? Coincidence that Drogon is this far away from home and that he happened to fly right over Tyrion when Tyrion was the only one looking who noticed the DRAGON that just flew over them? TYrion is the only POV (besides Dany) who has seen a dragon up to this point, can anyone really think this is a coincidence?

You are making baseless assumptions. It is not certain that the distance of Quentyn's ancestry played any role in his getting roasted. It may be that he could have tamed the one dragon had the other not been there. It may be that he somehow didn't have the right stuff even if the dragon had been alone.

Addam and Alyn Velaryon were brothers, sons of the same Velaryon father, and yet one became a dragon rider, and the other was lucky to survive being burned. One could perhaps argue that the one tamed a dragon that had been ridden by a Velaryon, while the other tried to tame one of the wild dragons (which was subsequently tamed by Nettles, who may or may not have had Targaryen ancestry), but all we know for sure is that two sons of the same parents had two polar opposite results trying to ride dragons.

If anything is clear, it is that whether or not Targaryen or Valyrian ancestry is necessary to ride a dragon (without a horn), Targaryen or Valyrian ancestry does not guarantee that one will be able to ride a dragon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

You are making baseless assumptions. It is not certain that the distance of Quentyn's ancestry played any role in his getting roasted. It may be that he could have tamed the one dragon had the other not been there. It may be that he somehow didn't have the right stuff even if the dragon had been alone.

Addam and Alyn Velaryon were brothers, sons of the same Velaryon father, and yet one became a dragon rider, and the other was lucky to survive being burned. One could perhaps argue that the one tamed a dragon that had been ridden by a Velaryon, while the other tried to tame one of the wild dragons (which was subsequently tamed by Nettles, who may or may not have had Targaryen ancestry), but all we know for sure is that two sons of the same parents had two polar opposite results trying to ride dragons.

If anything is clear, it is that whether or not Targaryen or Valyrian ancestry is necessary to ride a dragon (without a horn), Targaryen or Valyrian ancestry does not guarantee that one will be able to ride a dragon.

Oh yes! Totally agree that not every Targ can do it, I am just saying that if you look at the equation with a Math hat on;

Targ blood is needed to ride a Targaryen dragon,

The more Targ blood you have, the better your chances are of riding a Targaryen Dragon. Aemond ran right up to Vhagar no problem, 100 seeds died trying to even get close to a dragon. This seems obvious to me, but whatever if others dont see it that way that's cool too.

ETA: baseless assumptions are usually not backed up with multiple quotes from the books.

[Faydra]

The title is a bit misleading as I was hoping for something more centered on Tywin's relationship with the Targ king, rather than another T=T thread. The part with Aerys' "10 year anniversary party" was worth reading though. I bet he had a dark chocolate cake with strawberry red frosting and wildfire candles.

[Maia]

Well, about pale hair - Tommen has it too.).

Not anymore - he had it when he was younger - as indeed many young children iRL do. But in AFFC it has been explicitely mentioned that he already had the same hair-color as his siblings and parents - Lannister gold. Tyrion retained his nearly-white hair into adulthood.

Re: possibility of Aerys being the sperm donor, all we need to know is whether Joanna had been in KL around the time when Tyrion was conceived and if Aerys was still interested in her at that point. If the answer to these 2 questions is "yes", then we have both motive and opportunity. And we have known about the means since ACoK - the secret door into the Hand's bedchamber.

It would be ironic indeed if Tyrion used the same passage to kill Tywin as Aerys did to sire him and "kill" Joanna.

The same applies to the twins, naturally.

And, I guess, Aerys could have visited Casterly Rock, too, but I like the symbolism of the secret door and the sleeping chamber of the Hand being even more central to Tyrion's life.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I didn't say you worked backward, I said Aerys wasn't the only possibly explanation if Tyrion is able to fly a dragon, and that the notion that it is the only or most likely is merely working backward from an assumption, and discounting all the other possible explanations except one's preferred explanation.

Obviously GRRM included information in the books which indicate at least an interest in Joanna on Aerys' part. It is a possibility that there was something between them. But that doesn't mean any of Tywin's children were fathered by him. It is possible, but it is hardly the only way for Tyrion to ride a dragon. There are other possibilities, Targaryen ancestry entering his ancestry at some other point, the dragon horn.

And if Tyrion does ride a dragon without the horn, I am not sure that there will be any explicit statement telling us which ancestor of his (if any) allowed him to do it.

As far as features, Tyrion's nephew Tommen is described as having white blonde hair. And remember that while Tywin and Joanna were both Lannisters, they both had a parent that was not.

I never said that the "only possible explanation if Tyrion is able to ride a dragon" is that A+J=T. I acknowledged that maybe the dragonhorn is a possibility and maybe Nettles is not a dragonseed and showed that taking a long time to build a relationship with a dragon by feeding it can create a bond. I acknowledge these are possibilities (although I have been led to believe by people who seem to suggest they are "in the know" that WoIaF will confirm that all dragon riders have had Targ blood). I also acknowledge that Tryion might never ride a dragon at all.

My point is that I find those alternative unlikely--not because I am working backwards and assuming the conclusion. They might be sufficient if all that was necessary was for Tyrion to be able to ride a dragon. But I believe he is more significant than that. Others also might ride a dragon (like (f)Aegon), but the point is that I have become convinced that Tyrion is a Head of the Dragon. It is from that conclusion that I reject the "Nettles" exception or the dragonhorn exception. To be a head "of the dragon" I believe Tyrion needs to be "of the dragon."

If Tyrion rides a dragon but is not a head of the dragon (which I think is virtually impossible--if he rides a dragon, we will find out he is one of the three heads of the dragon), then maybe you are correct that we will not find out about his ancestry. But assuming that it is revealed Tyrion is one of the three heads of the dragon--his "hidden" Targ ancestry will not be left to the readers' imaginations. GRRM will reveal some way or other how Tyrion is "of the dragon".

As far as issues like hair color--I am not trying to argue that these traits are definitive. I acknowledge that none of the "Targ" traits, in and of themselves, prove Tyrion is a Targ.Yes, a full Lannister can have pale blond hair. Yes a full Lannister can have mismatched eyes. Yes, a full Lannister can become obsessed with dragons. Etc., etc., etc. It is the accumulation of clues that suggest that GRRM is trying to let the reader know it is a possibility so that at the time of the big reveal, it will make more sense in retrospect. That is how literature works. Could it be just a coincidence? Of course. Could it be GRRM messing with people like me to get us on the wrong track (red herring)? Of course. But given the other evidence noted (like the heads of the dragon and Aerys interest in Joanna), I tend to think it is more likely than not that Tyrion is a Targ bastard.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not anymore - he had it when he was younger - as indeed many young children iRL do. But in AFFC it has been explicitely mentioned that he already had the same hair-color as his siblings and parents - Lannister gold. Tyrion retained his nearly-white hair into adulthood.

Re: possibility of Aerys being the sperm donor, all we need to know is whether Joanna had been in KL around the time when Tyrion was conceived and if Aerys was still interested in her at that point. If the answer to these 2 questions is "yes", then we have both motive and opportunity. And we have known about the means since ACoK - the secret door into the Hand's bedchamber.

It would be ironic indeed if Tyrion used the same passage to kill Tywin as Aerys did to sire him and "kill" Joanna.

The same applies to the twins, naturally.

And, I guess, Aerys could have visited Casterly Rock, too, but I like the symbolism of the secret door and the sleeping chamber of the Hand being even more central to Tyrion's life.

Yes I think most people, even those who dont like the theory, can agree that IF it is proven in WOIAF that Joanna was in KL in 272 to give birth to Tyrion in 273 that is is HIGHLY PROBABLE that Aerys is the father.

I never said that the "only possible explanation if Tyrion is able to ride a dragon" is that A+J=T. I acknowledged that maybe the dragonhorn is a possibility and maybe Nettles is not a dragonseed and showed that taking a long time to build a relationship with a dragon by feeding it can create a bond. I acknowledge these are possibilities (although I have been led to believe by people who seem to suggest they are "in the know" that WoIaF will confirm that all dragon riders have had Targ blood). I also acknowledge that Tryion might never ride a dragon at all.

My point is that I find those alternative unlikely--not because I am working backwards and assuming the conclusion. They might be sufficient if all that was necessary was for Tyrion to be able to ride a dragon. But I believe he is more significant than that. Others also might ride a dragon (like (f)Aegon), but the point is that I have become convinced that Tyrion is a Head of the Dragon. It is from that conclusion that I reject the "Nettles" exception or the dragonhorn exception. To be a head "of the dragon" I believe Tyrion needs to be "of the dragon."

If Tyrion rides a dragon but is not a head of the dragon (which I think is virtually impossible--if he rides a dragon, we will find out he is one of the three heads of the dragon), then maybe you are correct that we will not find out about his ancestry. But assuming that it is revealed Tyrion is one of the three heads of the dragon--his "hidden" Targ ancestry will not be left to the readers' imaginations. GRRM will reveal some way or other how Tyrion is "of the dragon".

As far as issues like hair color--I am not trying to argue that these traits are definitive. I acknowledge that none of the "Targ" traits, in and of themselves, prove Tyrion is a Targ.Yes, a full Lannister can have pale blond hair. Yes a full Lannister can have mismatched eyes. Yes, a full Lannister can become obsessed with dragons. Etc., etc., etc. It is the accumulation of clues that suggest that GRRM is trying to let the reader know it is a possibility so that at the time of the big reveal, it will make more sense in retrospect. That is how literature works. Could it be just a coincidence? Of course. Could it be GRRM messing with people like me to get us on the wrong track (red herring)? Of course. But given the other evidence noted (like the heads of the dragon and Aerys interest in Joanna), I tend to think it is more likely than not that Tyrion is a Targ bastard.

Well said! This is exactly right.

[Kundry]

Another "clue" is that Tyrion chose Hill as his fake name (Hill being a bastard name of Westerland).