What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well her and Aerys were companions as children, they had known each other for years, them and Rhaella and Tywin were all long friends/aquaintances. It's possible he raped her, or that they just had an affair. This would have been long before Aerys had reached the height of his madness. And everything I have read seems to suggest that Aerys was a very attractive Targaryen, just like Rhaegar. He only went all Howard Hughes at the end. I think it highly possible that they just slept together regular and it was not rape, but I really don't know, it could be either way.

I agree it might have been consensual. I only wanted to point out the possibility of rape as others were assuming it must be an affair.

If someone thinks that the main argument is that Joanna and Aerys weren't in the same place for Tyrion to be Targaryen, well, allow me to say that is a mistake... For me personally would be the obvious idiocy of Joanna in that case... I mean, if she was pregnant with Aerys' child, and that was a secret. she could have easily abort, in order not to risk having silver-haired purple-eyes walking proof of her infidelity. Joanna wasn't stupid, and she would have known what to do in such circumstances. So, even though we have them in same place, there are more to answer...

One theory is that she took the "moon tea" but rather than result in an abortion, it merely caused his deformity (dwarfism--yes, I know it is genetic in the "real world" but who know on Planteos). Either way, there are many reasons why Joanna might not have been willing to abort Tyrion even if Aerys was or might have been the father (as noted by SS and LV), so we cannot assume that failure to abort means necessarily that Aerys cannot have been the father.

[Mladen]

Why the hell should Joanna abort a royal child?

IDK... Perhaps because her husband is Tywin Lannister. That is a good start.

One theory is that she took the "moon tea" but rather than result in an abortion, it merely caused his deformity (dwarfism--yes, I know it is genetic in the "real world" but who know on Planteos). Either way, there are many reasons why Joanna might not have been willing to abort Tyrion even if Aerys was or might have been the father (as noted by SS and LV), so we cannot assume that failure to abort means necessarily that Aerys cannot have been the father.

Although genetics is shady in Westeros, that would be one gigantic leap... I mean, this simply logically makes little sense to me. And I haven't seen one reasonable evidence to assume that Joanna would risk that much. People knew who the real power behind the Throne is, and I suppose Joanna knew her husband very well.

And, just for clarification, this theory is nowhere near R+L=J. That theory is practically a fact, this one needs quite a bit to achieve that status. Although, I do admit it is not entirely baseless.

[bent branch]

I think WoIaF probably won't definitively prove theories one way or the other--but information may serve as clues that certainly might make certain theories seems more or less likely. For example, as noted above, the whereabouts of Joanna and Aerys during the likely time of Tyrion's conception would be a clue, even if not determinative. If they are shown to have been in the same location, that fact adds fuel to the speculation. If they appear to have been in very different locations throughout that period, it makes the theory seem unlikely and perhaps not possible. So while WoIaF may not directly give clues to any of the mysteries, ancillary facts are likely to be revealed that can support or harm current theories.

I watched the interview with GRRM from ty92 last night and GRRM said he was convinced to reveal more than he wanted, so now I believe there will be some interesting stuff in AWOIAF.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

My position over these matters are quite known. I hate, and repeat hate secret Targaryen/Lannister theories for, IMHO, they have no textual basis.

And, just for clarification, this theory is nowhere near R+L=J. That theory is practically a fact, this one needs quite a bit to achieve that status. Although, I do admit it is not entirely baseless.

Well it is very nice to see that you have changed your tune before WOIAF is published tomorrow, now that everything I have been saying for the past year.5 is about to be (practically) proven right in this theory.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why the hell should Joanna abort a royal child? If she slept with Aerys, the term 'consensual' has to be considered really seriously. Not to mention the fact that there could have been a threesome with Tywin, or, much more likely, she could have had intercourse with Tywin/Aerys shortly afterwards, making it impossibly to know if the child was Aerys' or Tywin's. In that case she would not abort. She would also not try to abort if she wanted to keep the Aerys-Joanna-thing a secret from Tywin.

If we're lucky Showtime or Cinemax will pick up the rights from HBO...

[Lord Varys]

The problem George was described last night was referring to Summerhall and Dunk and Egg in general. The topic was the problem he faced when it came to covering the reigns of Aerys I, Maekar, and Egg in TWoIaF. He did not want to reveal too much about that, since that could seriously cripple the twist potential of future Dunk and Egg stories.

The picture he should discuss really rubbed that into his face again, I assume.

If I remember Ran/Linda from a while back, it was actually George who put a lot of stuff back in they felt it would give away too much, while he was comfortable with it.

Topic:

A+J=T is basically a fact by now. Just deal with it. I, personally, was not all that into this theory prior to ADwD, because, well, you make your own image of certain characters and with the years they grow as hard and inflexible as Valyrian rock (especially if we have just hearsay and a very sketchy characterization of a character - Joanna loved Tywin with all her heart - right), but just as ADwD pretty much confirmed R+L=J, it also opened the door very wide A+J=T. In combination with the other hints given throughout the series it is pretty obvious where this is supposed to lead.

[Mladen]

Well it is very nice to see that you have changed your tune before WOIAF is published tomorrow, now that everything I have been saying for the past year.5 is about to be (practically) proven right in this theory.

Hahhahahaha, I see some things never changed... For the record, given that the line I have posted earlier has been said some 100 times before today, I didn't change my mind about this today, since you can easily find that I have said that this theory is simply not of my liking, that I don't buy it, but that I see where it came from, This blatant attempt "I was right, you were wrong" made me laugh, but at the end, I am not surprised.

So, let me put this in way that there will be no (intentional) misunderstandings:

1. Do I believe that Tyrion is Targ? No

2. Do I believe that evidence presented are enough to conclude it on the same level as RLJ? No

3. Do I see where this comes from? Yes

4. Have I said it earlier? Yes, on dozens of threads, even though stating my disagreement.

5. Did I change my mind because of what I have seen today? No.

A+J=T is basically a fact by now. Just deal with it. I, personally, was not all that into this theory prior to ADwD, because, well, you make your own image of certain characters and with the years they grow as hard and inflexible as Valyrian rock (especially if we have just hearsay and a very sketchy characterization of a character - Joanna loved Tywin with all her heart - right), but just as ADwD pretty much confirmed R+L=J, it also opened the door very wide A+J=T. In combination with the other hints given throughout the series it is pretty obvious where this is supposed to lead.

I am confused, is this opinion or statement? Because it is not a fact... Not even close. Unless, fact means something different.

[Mithras]

So what now; Joanna in Jaime's dream seemed to love Tywin back, perhaps as much as he loved her. Did she give horns to Tywin by a consensual sex with Aerys? If A+J=T (which I do not buy), the only possibility can be a rape. Else we have some serious problems with the current knowledge about these characters.

What is fact for me by now is that George is giving Tyrion a dragon (Viserion most likely). And this alone cannot be used to imply A+J=T.

[Lord Varys]

It is not just that.

What I take from the esoteric dream thing is that Joanna loved her children, not necessarily Tywin. She discusses his dreams for his two children, not her dreams for them, after all.

[Mithras]

On the contrary, while we were considering Tywin as a monster (which he was) she talked about a "humane" part of him which we have never seen, nor any other perseon in Westeros (except maybe Cersei). From this I conclude that Joanna loved whatever could be loved about Tywin. And we also know that Tywin was "ruled" by Joanna at home. She should have been a loving and caring wife for Tywin to trust her so much.

[UnmaskedLurker]

IDK... Perhaps because her husband is Tywin Lannister. That is a good start.

Although genetics is shady in Westeros, that would be one gigantic leap... I mean, this simply logically makes little sense to me. And I haven't seen one reasonable evidence to assume that Joanna would risk that much. People knew who the real power behind the Throne is, and I suppose Joanna knew her husband very well.

And, just for clarification, this theory is nowhere near R+L=J. That theory is practically a fact, this one needs quite a bit to achieve that status. Although, I do admit it is not entirely baseless.

I am not sure what you mean. If she tried moon tea and it failed, then she had no choice in keeping the baby. We also know from the Baratheon/Lannister situation, that people do not generally consider whether a baby not looking like the baby should look would be interpreted as meaning a certain person is the real parent--so Joanna simply might not have considered the implications of a silver haired/purple-eyed baby and whether Tywin would make the connection.

But actually, although I believe A+J=T, I don't think it is a "proven" in the text as R+L=J. Certain aspects of the text would simply make no sense if RLJ is not true, whereas the same is not the case for AJT. I believe the clues are sufficient to lead to this conclusion, but I don't see the proof as nearly as strong as RLJ, and even clues in WoIaF probably won't make the theory rise to that level--although it might mean the GRRM is intentionally "punking" us if it is not true.

So what now; Joanna in Jaime's dream seemed to love Tywin back, perhaps as much as he loved her. Did she give horns to Tywin by a consensual sex with Aerys? If A+J=T (which I do not buy), the only possibility can be a rape. Else we have some serious problems with the current knowledge about these characters.

What is fact for me by now is that George is giving Tyrion a dragon (Viserion most likely). And this alone cannot be used to imply A+J=T.

I don't think we know enough about Joanna to know whether she might have an affair. But while Tyrion riding a dragon may not prove anything in and of itself, it is just one piece in the puzzle. It is also the clues that Tyrion is one of the head of the dragon--meaning he is "of the dragon" (not just a Lannister with a drop of Targ blood from generations ago but "of the dragon" i.e. of House Targ). And then there are the more subtle clues, like the hair color, mismatched eyes, choosing Hugor Hill as his fake name, obsession with dragons, liking hot baths, etc. etc. None of these clues in and of themselves proves ATJ. Each is consistent with Tyrion being a full Lannister. But taken together, from a literary point of view, there seem to be too many of them to be a pure coincidence.

[Mladen]

I am not sure what you mean. If she tried moon tea and it failed, then she had no choice in keeping the baby. We also know from the Baratheon/Lannister situation, that people do not generally consider whether a baby not looking like the baby should look would be interpreted as meaning a certain person is the real parent--so Joanna simply might not have considered the implications of a silver haired/purple-eyed baby and whether Tywin would make the connection.

But actually, although I believe A+J=T, I don't think it is a "proven" in the text as R+L=J. Certain aspects of the text would simply make no sense if RLJ is not true, whereas the same is not the case for AJT. I believe the clues are sufficient to lead to this conclusion, but I don't see the proof as nearly as strong as RLJ, and even clues in WoIaF probably won't make the theory rise to that level--although it might mean the GRRM is intentionally "punking" us if it is not true.

What do you mean that you don't understand?

Yeah, but Baratheon/Lannister kids looked like one parent. If Tyrion had Targ traits, it would be difficult to claim that like Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella he has one parent's looks. That is why the danger plays such a big role and I honestly can't see Joanna risking that much. As for moon tea, can we say it is ineffective at some point? I thought it is rather certain way of achieving the goal - whether it is preventing pregnancy or aborting one. And, I mean, Tywin knew how Aerys was into Joanna, hell, even Aerys' KG knew about it, and then suddenly she gives birth to silver-haired, purple-eyes child? I doubt anyone in the country would actually be that naive not to think that Tyrion, in that case, is Aerys' son.

As for last paragraph, yeah, I agree completely.

[Knight Of Winter]

I'd like to compile all in-story hints that point out towards A+J=T.

- Barristan says that Aerys had a thing for Joanna

- Tyrion has mismatched eyes

- Tyrion had dreams about dragons and was obsessed with them as kid

- infamous I can't prove you're not mine comment from Tywin

- Tyrion doesn't have golden hair like his father and siblings

Am I missing something? If that's all, that makes up for relatively weak case - not near enough to even compare with R+L=J.

[UnmaskedLurker]

What do you mean that you don't understand?

Yeah, but Baratheon/Lannister kids looked like one parent. If Tyrion had Targ traits, it would be difficult to claim that like Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella he has one parent's looks. That is why the danger plays such a big role and I honestly can't see Joanna risking that much. As for moon tea, can we say it is ineffective at some point? I thought it is rather certain way of achieving the goal - whether it is preventing pregnancy or aborting one. And, I mean, Tywin knew how Aerys was into Joanna, hell, even Aerys' KG knew about it, and then suddenly she gives birth to silver-haired, purple-eyes child? I doubt anyone in the country would actually be that naive not to think that Tyrion, in that case, is Aerys' son.

As for last paragraph, yeah, I agree completely.

I really just have one question (well, a two-part question)--a genuine question: do we know whether moon tea is effective 100% of the time and if not, do we know what happens when it is not effective? Without the answer to that question, I don't think we can know whether Joanna might not have had a choice but to keep the baby.

[Mithras]

I'd like to compile all in-story hints that point out towards A+J=T.

- Barristan says that Aerys had a thing for Joanna

- Tyrion has mismatched eyes

- Tyrion had dreams about dragons and was obsessed with them as kid

- infamous I can't prove you're not mine comment from Tywin

- Tyrion doesn't have golden hair like his father and siblings

Am I missing something? If that's all, that makes up for relatively weak case - not near enough to even compare with R+L=J.

What is funny is that except the "thing" Aerys had for Joanna, all those points can also be explained by a distant Targ ancestor. In addition, it also explains Aerysian transformation of Cersei or Jaime-Cersei vs. Aemon-Naerys parallel.

[Mladen]

I'd like to compile all in-story hints that point out towards A+J=T.

- Barristan says that Aerys had a thing for Joanna

- Tyrion has mismatched eyes

- Tyrion had dreams about dragons and was obsessed with them as kid

- infamous I can't prove you're not mine comment from Tywin

- Tyrion doesn't have golden hair like his father and siblings

Am I missing something? If that's all, that makes up for relatively weak case - not near enough to even compare with R+L=J.

Well, just to add that people who believe in this, also count:

- Tywin's last words "you are not son of mine"

- Tyrion's connection with dragons

Overall, I believe that these suggest that Tyrion will be dragonrider, not Targaryen.

I really just have one question (well, a two-part question)--a genuine question: do we know whether moon tea is effective 100% of the time and if not, do we know what happens when it is not effective? Without the answer to that question, I don't think we can know whether Joanna might not have had a choice but to keep the baby.

I simply have no idea. As far as we have seen, it is effective, and it did serve its purpose at any given occasion we had. But, overall, I don't believe that either side can claim the certainty regarding this.

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion is not a Targaryen, he is a Hill.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'd like to compile all in-story hints that point out towards A+J=T.

- Barristan says that Aerys had a thing for Joanna

- Tyrion has mismatched eyes

- Tyrion had dreams about dragons and was obsessed with them as kid

- infamous I can't prove you're not mine comment from Tywin

- Tyrion doesn't have golden hair like his father and siblings

Am I missing something? If that's all, that makes up for relatively weak case - not near enough to even compare with R+L=J.

If you want to gather the evidence, a good place to start is the original A+J=T thread. If you follow the link, you will see it got to 35 pages and not all the clues are in the OP, but some are. I don't think the Hugor Hill clue is mentioned there, but it might have been. If you want to comb through this thread and that thread and put together all the A+J=T clues and start A+J=T v 2, that would be great. I have been wanting to do that, but it is time consuming and I have not gotten around to it. The original author of the A+J=T thread does not seem to have logged on in a long time, so I don't think that person would mind someone else doing a v.2 of that thread.

A few of additional clues I can remember are: last words of Tywin: You are no son of mine (this is a separate quote from the cannot prove it quote). I think some people also pointed to liking hot baths and burnt bacon. There are also references to Tyrion having a shadow a large as a king's. I am going from memory, so I might have some wrong and am probably missing some.

Another connected issue is whether Tyrion is a head of the dragon. If he is, then that also argues that he needs to be "of House Targ" which would not be true if Tywin is Tyrion's bio-dad.

[UnmaskedLurker]

What is funny is that except the "thing" Aerys had for Joanna, all those points can also be explained by a distant Targ ancestor. In addition, it also explains Aerysian transformation of Cersei or Jaime-Cersei vs. Aemon-Naerys parallel.

What is funny is that except the "thing" Aerys had for Joanna, all those points can also be explained by a distant Targ ancestor. In addition, it also explains Aerysian transformation of Cersei or Jaime-Cersei vs. Aemon-Naerys parallel.

If Tyrion is a dragon rider but not one of the three heads of the dragon--fine, I sort of agree that any old source of Targ blood is good enough. But I have concluded that Tyrion is one of the three heads of the dragon based primarily on the many parallels to Dany and Jon (and by process of elimination). A distant Targ ancestor is not enough, in my opinion, to be a head of the dragon. A Targ king for a father--even as a bastard (I agree he is Tyrion Hill and not Tyrion Targaryen)--would be enough to be "of the dragon." That analysis is what tips me over to believe that Tyrion is a Targ bastard. Taken together with the little "hints" of his Targ-ness seems to paint a pretty clear picture if the entire landscape is examined without any pre-conceived notions.

[Knight Of Winter]

Ok, so there is You're no son of mine comment from Tywin. Mladen, does Tyrion have any special connection with dragons besides having dragon dreams as a kid?

UnmaskedLurker - thanks for the link, I briefly skimmed though first page. I'm not really interested in opening new thread - someone who believes in theory should do it. I just wanted to briefly list all hints and evidence to see if I'm missing anything important when assessing the theory.