Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Actually I have seen many discussion about A+J=T ended (or rather people trying to end them) with the arguement "Joanna was living in CR so Aerys had no access to her". It was probably the most used arguement by A+J=T detractors in all the threads. So Suzanna is right that having a proof Joanna and Aerys were at KL around the date where Tyrion was conceved is a big element in favor of the theory. Opponents should find a completely different arguements if they want to disprove it now (and I've seen none that can be considered of same magnitude in the 60 or so pages of threads I've read on the issue). But it's not because the main argument of autority the supporters of the T&J=T theory was proven wrong, that A&J=T is necessarily right. After all Tywin was in KL too. So debate should just continue, on a new basis, where none of the two theories can be easily dismissed by a one liner, which can only make those discussions more interesting (if only both sides could resist describing their views as proven). Fair enough, I think it's proven, but will refrain from saying it if you think it will help discussion. I think my exuberance comes from 1 solid year of being told off by many, only to now have a lot more evidence come forward which supports this theory and my ideas about this theory specifically. But yeah good post, I agree. This is a very solid theory now and can no longer be dismissed by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Why do you think GRRM bothered to put in so many clues that A+J=T if it is not true? What are those clues? That Aerys and Joanna perhaps had relationship, that they met at some point? As I said I differentiate the "Tyrion a dragonrider clues and "Tyrion a Targaryen" clues. When you separate those two, like the dreams, pieces of foreshadowing, then you don't have a lot. You have Aerys being infatuated with Joanna, you have Tywin's resentment. That is all. I have said that the possible distance was never, at least in my mind, serious objection to the theory. And now we have them approximately at the same place when Tyrion is conceived. But, you all look at year, forgetting the context - public humiliation of Joanna. In front of her children. If that doesn't put an end to possible love affair, I don't know what does. I do believe that Aerys/Joanna thing is there to make us understand Tywin better. To see how he resented Aerys, and how he couldn't tolerate anyone making him a fool. It shows the dynamics between Tywin and Aerys... With all of that being said, I simply have to say that context does matter... And instead of just looking at year, look also at what happened there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Why do you think GRRM bothered to put in so many clues that A+J=T if it is not true? Mladen responded but I'll answer this one too. 1. George will give Tyrion a dragon (there is an undeniable build up for this). 2. The third dragon will also be given to a character. 3. Dragonriding has to be explained because it is very central to the story. Why did a certain character ride a certain dragon? George has to answer for that. 4. However, George is very secretive about his central mysteries and he often uses red herrings. As in the case of Jon Arryn's death, we spent the entire book thinking that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn but it was not the case and the clues pointing Lysa were there in the First Book. As Mladen suggested, if you remove "Tyrion Dragonrider" part of this theory, what remains is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna once (which does not sound like a romance from Aerys' side) and what we learn in TWOIAF. These two are hardly definite proofs of them siring a bastard and the logic behind why we thought that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn makes much more sense than the combination of these two "clues", although as we learned later this logic was false and it was a glaring example of red herring. I think George is planning to build the impression that only the people with Targ blood can ride dragons because when people start riding dragons in the series, the readers should be ripe enough to pluck. Because I think the real thing in George's mind is to overthrow this false impression (only the people with Targ blood can ride dragons or you cannot skinchange into dragons) by shocking turn of events (like Dany's dragonriders betraying her, dragons dying, the symetry between three dragonriders - three heads of the dragon breaking etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 What are those clues? That Aerys and Joanna perhaps had relationship, that they met at some point? As I said I differentiate the "Tyrion a dragonrider clues and "Tyrion a Targaryen" clues. When you separate those two, like the dreams, pieces of foreshadowing, then you don't have a lot. You have Aerys being infatuated with Joanna, you have Tywin's resentment. That is all. I have said that the possible distance was never, at least in my mind, serious objection to the theory. And now we have them approximately at the same place when Tyrion is conceived. But, you all look at year, forgetting the context - public humiliation of Joanna. In front of her children. If that doesn't put an end to possible love affair, I don't know what does. I do believe that Aerys/Joanna thing is there to make us understand Tywin better. To see how he resented Aerys, and how he couldn't tolerate anyone making him a fool. It shows the dynamics between Tywin and Aerys... With all of that being said, I simply have to say that context does matter... And instead of just looking at year, look also at what happened there. I had a feeling you were going to ignore many of the clues. OK, I will try to list all of the clues that I remember that--at least to me--point to A+J=T (I'm sure I'll forget some). Admittedly, each of them alone could have innocent answers--it is the combined taken together that suggests something more. And by the way, if Aerys raped Joanna, then any insults would have nothing to due with the likelihood of A+J=T. Here is the list as best I can remember: Tyrion's hair color is closer to Targ than Lannister Tyrion has mismatched eyes--one of the only other characters with this trait is a Targ bastard Tyrion is obsessed with dragons Tyrion likes baths that are hotter than usual Tyrion is referred to as having a long shadow and one time indicated his shadow made him appear as tall as a king (I think there are other king allusions to Tyrion in other place but not sure) Aerys was obsessed with Joanna and made remarks at the bedding Aerys and Joanna are stated to have been in the same location at a time that could have been the time of Tyrion's conception Tyrion, Dany and Jon have many similarities (death of mother in childbirth--outsiders--death of lover--leadership positions--etc.) suggesting they are linked, perhaps as the three heads of the dragon, suggesting strong Targ heritage (not just a "drop" of Targ blood) Tyrion chooses the fake name of Hugar Hill (a king's first name and bastard last name) So that is the list off the top of my head. Quite a bit more extensive than what you listed as the evidence. So given all of these clues, I ask again, why would GRRM put in all of these clues if they mean nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Mladen responded but I'll answer this one too. 1. George will give Tyrion a dragon (there is an undeniable build up for this). 2. The third dragon will also be given to a character. 3. Dragonriding has to be explained because it is very central to the story. Why did a certain character ride a certain dragon? George has to answer for that. 4. However, George is very secretive about his central mysteries and he often uses red herrings. As in the case of Jon Arryn's death, we spent the entire book thinking that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn but it was not the case and the clues pointing Lysa were there in the First Book. As Mladen suggested, if you remove "Tyrion Dragonrider" part of this theory, what remains is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna once (which does not sound like a romance from Aerys' side) and what we learn in TWOIAF. These two are hardly definite proofs of them siring a bastard and the logic behind why we thought that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn makes much more sense than the combination of these two "clues", although as we learned later this logic was false and it was a glaring example of red herring. I think George is planning to build the impression that only the people with Targ blood can ride dragons because when people start riding dragons in the series, the readers should be ripe enough to pluck. Because I think the real thing in George's mind is to overthrow this false impression (only the people with Targ blood can ride dragons or you cannot skinchange into dragons) by shocking turn of events (like Dany's dragonriders betraying her, dragons dying, the symetry between three dragonriders - three heads of the dragon breaking etc.). Here is the difference. People in-story speculate about the Lannisters poisoning Jon Arryn. No one in-story makes any statement even remotely suggesting that A+J=T. Red herrings have to be something that the readers are likely to pick up on--hardly any will see A+J=T. The clues are subtle -- but more extensive than you suggest (see my post #325). But no one every makes a direct statement to this effect, and each clue, admittedly could on an individual basis have an innocent explanation. So you cannot fool people with clues that most people will never notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 ^^^^^ Just like R+L=J. There is not even one hint or statement that ever actually links Jon to Rhaegar or Lyanna, just very subtle clues, blue flower, kings blood comment, Ned thinking about a 14 year lie and Jon is 14 years old. I mean I completely believe R+L=J but it is still not even close to confirmed, yet most accept it as canon. And when I say that this theory has more credence than that one, what I mean is; Ned came home with a baby, no links to Rhaegar anywhere in the novels, Tyrion, we already know who his mother is for sure, and we know his mother had an affair with the king, and we also now know that Joanna and Aerys were in the same place at time of conception. The parentage of Tyrion is narrowed down to 2 possible fathers and that's it, Jon OTOH could have multiple different mothers or fathers, so that's why this theory has just as much weight (or more) than R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I had a feeling you were going to ignore many of the clues. OK, I will try to list all of the clues that I remember that--at least to me--point to A+J=T (I'm sure I'll forget some). Admittedly, each of them alone could have innocent answers--it is the combined taken together that suggests something more. And by the way, if Aerys raped Joanna, then any insults would have nothing to due with the likelihood of A+J=T. Here is the list as best I can remember: I am not ignoring those facts, but most of them hardly can be put in "Tyrion is a Targ" pile of evidence. As for rape, OK, then it brings whole new set of questions... But, now, allow me to give you why I find some of the clues irrelevant for this case Tyrion's hair color is closer to Targ than Lannister Tyrion also has black hairs in his beard, which is not traditional Targaryen trait. The color of his hair simply is not some huge evidence. Tyrion has mismatched eyes--one of the only other characters with this trait is a Targ bastard And the other is not a Targaryen. The Targs have no special mismatched gene in their blood. Tyrion is obsessed with dragons Put that in "dragon-riding pile". And no one can say that Tyrion is the only person in Planetos, outside Targs that has shown special interest in dragons. Tyrion likes baths that are hotter than usual I think if we would do a research among Westerosi nobles, we would find out that most of them like hit baths, Hardly an evidence. Tyrion is referred to as having a long shadow and one time indicated his shadow made him appear as tall as a king (I think there are other king allusions to Tyrion in other place but not sure) So what? Lannisters were also Kings, as Olenna reminded us... In that same chapter, Jaime was told to look like King should look like, but at the end, he isn't Targaryen. Aerys was obsessed with Joanna and made remarks at the bedding Aerys and Joanna are stated to have been in the same location at a time that could have been the time of Tyrion's conception I have no clue how event that happened what, 7 years, prior to Tyrion's conception. The fact they could have been together at time of Tyrion's conception again means nothing, but both of these I mentioned in my post, so it is rather silly to accuse me of ignoring the evidence and then write the ones I have listed as those that can be used... Tyrion, Dany and Jon have many similarities (death of mother in childbirth--outsiders--death of lover--leadership positions--etc.) suggesting they are linked, perhaps as the three heads of the dragon, suggesting strong Targ heritage (not just a "drop" of Targ blood) Not Targaryen heritage... It seems like you believe their mothers died because they were carrying Targ babies. Well, they died for narrative reasons mostly. Dead mother can't logically be used as proof that Tyrion is a Targaryen. The other parallels, and the obvious main character theme in these three could mean a lot. So, this is not a proof. This is just forcing something to be a proof, against all logic. Tyrion chooses the fake name of Hugar Hill (a king's first name and bastard last name) "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes" So that is the list off the top of my head. Quite a bit more extensive than what you listed as the evidence. So given all of these clues, I ask again, why would GRRM put in all of these clues if they mean nothing? No... Your list isn't a bit more extensive, it is just more fishing for evidence and some of those go against plain logic. Again, some of those point at Tyrion being dragon-rider, which is, as I said I believe, GRRM-s goal. Not to make him Targ, but to make him dragon-rider. A question I have answered half a dozen times to you, so I am dumbfounded that you found the need to ask me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Tyrion, we already know who his mother is for sure, and we know his mother had an affair with the king, and we also now know that Joanna and Aerys were in the same place at time of conception. But we don't. There is a rumour that she had an affair and that's all. There was also a rumour once that Rhegar's ghost came back... And even if it was more than that, based on what Aerys did to her in 272, there is no way their hypothetical affair kept going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 But we don't. There is a rumour that she had an affair and that's all. There was also a rumour once that Rhegar's ghost came back... And even if it was more than that, based on what Aerys did to her in 272, there is no way their hypothetical affair kept going. Why would Aerys be commenting on her breasts unless he had previously seen them and then seen them again recently? He remarks how they are not what they once were, meaning he saw them back then (262-265) and has seen them now (272). Women at court wear corsets, the only way to tell what they (breasts) really look like is in 'the nude'. Trust me I am a fit technician for lingerie/corsetry and swimwear, this is one area I can speak on with expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Why would Aerys be commenting on her breasts unless he had previously seen them and then seen them again recently? He remarks how they are not what they once were, meaning he saw them back then (262-265) and has seen them now (272). Women at court wear corsets, the only way to tell what they (breasts) really look like is in 'the nude'. Trust me I am a fit technician for lingerie/corsetry and swimwear, this is one area I can speak on with expertise. So, when it comes to breasts and bikinis we will talk to you :) Now, this is simply isn't about that. You can basically see that breasts are changed from the plain sight. You can simply differentiate it due to how clothes fit, so Aerys didn't have to see her nude, thus there is no evidence of this persumed sexual intercourse, other than conjecture. From what is written in WOIAF, Aerys saw Joanna for the first time after a long time. The intercourse would have to happen after this humiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Why would Aerys be commenting on her breasts unless he had previously seen them and then seen them again recently? He remarks how they are not what they once were, meaning he saw them back then (262-265) and has seen them now (272). Women at court wear corsets, the only way to tell what they (breasts) really look like is in 'the nude'. Trust me I am a fit technician for lingerie/corsetry and swimwear, this is one area I can speak on with expertise. The bedding. They strip the woman naked. Recall how Cat remembers comments several men made about her breasts during her own bedding. That being said, I think there was probably some sort of affair pre wedding. They were all childhood friends, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Why would Aerys be commenting on her breasts unless he had previously seen them and then seen them again recently? He remarks how they are not what they once were, meaning he saw them back then (262-265) and has seen them now (272). Women at court wear corsets, the only way to tell what they (breasts) really look like is in 'the nude'. Trust me I am a fit technician for lingerie/corsetry and swimwear, this is one area I can speak on with expertise.If you ever need anyone to fill in while you're out, please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 The bedding. They strip the woman naked. Recall how Cat remembers comments several men made about her breasts during her own bedding. That being said, I think there was probably some sort of affair pre wedding. They were all childhood friends, after all. Ok good point, that's true about the bedding when J & Tywin were married. And I definitely agree there was an affair when they were younger. But IMO, Aerys obviously has seen her breasts again in 272, or else why bring it up? maybe he slept with her the night before he made the breasts comment in 272, I mean that makes sense. If she is wearing a corset to a royal dinner/tourney then breasts look high and perky no matter how old you are. The only way he would know that they are less firm is if he saw them without a corset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Ok good point, that's true about the bedding when J & Tywin were married. And I definitely agree there was an affair when they were younger. But IMO, Aerys obviously has seen her breasts again in 272, or else why bring it up? maybe he slept with her the night before he made the breasts comment in 272, I mean that makes sense. If she is wearing a corset to a royal dinner/tourney then breasts look high and perky no matter how old you are. The only way he would know that they are less firm is if he saw them without a corset. Aerys didn't claim to know... He asked... The king (very much in his cups) asked her if giving suck to them had “ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud.” So, he didn't know, he asked, which very well puts an end to the idea of them having sex in 272 before this incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Ok good point, that's true about the bedding when J & Tywin were married. And I definitely agree there was an affair when they were younger. But IMO, Aerys obviously has seen her breasts again in 272, or else why bring it up? maybe he slept with her the night before he made the breasts comment in 272, I mean that makes sense. If she is wearing a corset to a royal dinner/tourney then breasts look high and perky no matter how old you are. The only way he would know that they are less firm is if he saw them without a corset. He's not looking at her breasts in 272. He's asking if her suckling twins ruined her breasts and recalls that they were pretty dandy way back when he saw them. It's a comment to remind Tywin that Aerys has seen Joanna's breasts before not a comment to tell everyone that he's seen Joanna's breasts again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Excuse me, but you don't need to expose your breasts for people to know they're firm and pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 ^^^^ I disagree, corsets make all breasts look perkier than they are. If we were talking about clothes in 2014 I would agree, but corsets make it all different. He's not looking at her breasts in 272. He's asking if her suckling twins ruined her breasts and recalls that they were pretty dandy way back when he saw them. It's a comment to remind Tywin that Aerys has seen Joanna's breasts before not a comment to tell everyone that he's seen Joanna's breasts again. Right, sorry, I dont have the book in hand. So sleeping with her before the breast comment is out I agree. If it happened, it happened that night, which would fit with Tywin trying to resign the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Excuse me, but you don't need to expose your breasts for people to know they're firm and pretty. Not always. A good bra or corset will make boobs look like whatever one wants them to look like. As long as the skin hasn't started to wrinkle, even saggy breasts can be made to look firm and perky with a well fitted garment. I'm not really sure what the ladies of Westeros were wearing for their breasts as, iirc, corsets were never mentioned in the text. But I think they certainly had to have been wearing some sort of binding and supportive material for their breasts. It's almost certain that Aerys has seen Joanna's breasts. Two sources have now discussed the liberties he took during the bedding...a ritual where the man and woman are stripped naked. Yandel all but confirms that Joanna and Aerys had an affair long before the wedding and this was a reason Rhaella dismissed Joanna. Yandel is so quick to brush these rumors aside by claiming that Tywin doesn't go for sloppy seconds that it's almost comical. We know differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Not always. A good bra or corset will make boobs look like whatever one wants them to look like. As long as the skin hasn't started to wrinkle, even saggy breasts can be made to look firm and perky with a well fitted garment. I'm not really sure what the ladies of Westeros were wearing for their breasts as, iirc, corsets were never mentioned in the text. But I think they certainly had to have been wearing some sort of binding and supportive material for their breasts. It's almost certain that Aerys has seen Joanna's breasts. Two sources have now discussed the liberties he took during the bedding...a ritual where the man and woman are stripped naked. Yandel all but confirms that Joanna and Aerys had an affair long before the wedding and this was a reason Rhaella dismissed Joanna. Yandel is so quick to brush these rumors aside by claiming that Tywin doesn't go for sloppy seconds that it's almost comical. We know differently. Totally agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Excuse me, but you don't need to expose your breasts for people to know they're firm and pretty. Erm I would beg to differ based on personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.