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Suzanna Stormborn

What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

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''You are my most leal subject, but a King does not marry his heir to his servants daughter.''

- I don't think relations between them went too well after that. Aerys probably seen Tywin was surpassing him in respect, and tried to put him in his place. Whether he took right with Joanna is another story, but not entirely out of question...

Yes i agree, but TYrion was born before Cersei was refused.

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Wait, I thought at first that you were saying that Aerys lost his respect because he successfully impregnated Joanna.

Now you say that on the contrary he slept with Joanna to "belittle his upjumped Hand"... which isn't exactly showing tremendous respect. So which direction do you want to argue?

No i am saying that Aerys felt threatened and made it with Joanna in an act to belittle TYwin, after the sex happened and a child was born from it, Aerys thought of him as a big joke.

And obviously there was some history with Joanna and Aerys, as stated in the OP.

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good point so tyrion would still not be a targ

yes I agree, Tyrion was raised a Lannister, his mother Joanna is a Lannister, Tywin's first cousin, so no matter what he is still a Lannister, I just think Tywin is not his biological father is all.

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Great OP, you put a lot of work into it and in terms of timeline and character thoughts and motivations, and it does seem to fit. I'm not sure I necessarily believe Tyrion is a secret Targ, but between the timeline, and the many other clues in Tyrion's PoV's, I think the theory certainly has some merit and may be true, and this adds another dimension to that. Anyways great job on all the research, it was a good read.

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Lol, yeah I have been putting this together for a while. I have like 15 more pages on it, but a lot of the other points are way to vague and are open to serious put-downs, so I took what I thought were the strongest points in my paper. I am cool with people not agreeing with me, I just wanted to put forth the literature that makes me believe it.

The thing with Tyrion being a Targ is that Tywin had these two great children, and he wanted them to achieve great things, Jaime being a knight and Cersei the Queen. Then Tyrion comes along and spoils his life.

I think it would take some of the irony out of it if Tyrion became the next Lord of Casterly Rock, not Cersei or Jaime, but the son Tywin always looked down on and thought nothing much of, and most importantly didn't want to have Casterly Rock.

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This thread seemed interesting, until the "Tyrion is a Targaryen" part. All of these secret targ theories make my head spin.

As for the thread subject, I think Aerys respected Tywin's abilities as an administrator, but I don't think he had a great deal of respect for anyone as a person. Like Viserys, he seems to have been very arrogant.

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Great OP, you put a lot of work into it and in terms of timeline and character thoughts and motivations, and it does seem to fit. I'm not sure I necessarily believe Tyrion is a secret Targ, but between the timeline, and the many other clues in Tyrion's PoV's, I think the theory certainly has some merit and may be true, and this adds another dimension to that. Anyways great job on all the research, it was a good read.

Wow! Thank you so much :) I have often argued on other threads about my belief in this theory, and I just wanted everyone to know that I actually have legit reasons for believing it. I have been working on this a long time, so it is very pleasing to hear that :)

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The emotion Aerys felt toward Tywin was resentment. Since Aerys perceived his social standing to be higher than that of Tywin (or anybody else for that matter) his resentment manifested itself as contempt.

You've put together a nice theory. You need to couple it with proofs from Tyrion's character though.

Still, I disagree for the simple reason that it would spoil so much of the relationship between Tyrion and his father. As Genna Lannister told Jamie, Tyrion was his father's son.

I'm not familiar with Martin's other work (except for Beauty & the Beast) but from ASOIAF it seems his main characters are all round and never flat. We all felt sorry for Tyrion and noted his honor especially in the way he treated Sansa. We cheered for him during the Battle of the Blackwater even though we favored the other side. Of all those receiving reward after the battle we felt Tyrion was more deserbing than any of the others. But where is character headed now? He has treayed Pemny honorably but isn't he looking to advance his agenda of revenge against his own family? And looking back was tyrion really so noble? He's smug and arrogant. He scoffed at the way the Clans made decisions democraticly. Despite the way he treated Sansa and Penny he's a womanizer. How many peole has he used to advance his own agenda? No, I think Tyrion is Tywin's son. And I think his character is going to become more disturbing.

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The thing with Tyrion being a Targ is that Tywin had these two great children, and he wanted them to achieve great things, Jaime being a knight and Cersei the Queen. Then Tyrion comes along and spoils his life.

I think it would take some of the irony out of it if Tyrion became the next Lord of Casterly Rock, not Cersei or Jaime, but the son Tywin always looked down on and thought nothing much of, and most importantly didn't want to have Casterly Rock.

I see what you are saying, but TYwin is dead now, he died believing the lie Joanna had told him (IMO) so either way Tywin personally never knew, he died thinking he had fathered a disappointing dwarf who killed the King. So it is and always will be a slap in the face for Tywin. I think it is even more ironic, that the thing Tywin wanted most was just to kill Tyrion to NOT have fathered him, and (IMO) it is true, but he died and never even found out. like, haha Tywin.

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yes I agree, Tyrion was raised a Lannister, his mother Joanna is a Lannister, Tywin's first cousin, so no matter what he is still a Lannister, I just think Tywin is not his biological father is all.

Targaryen bastards being needed for dragon riders could also be a clue as to why GRRM made Tyrion go to Dany :)

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Targaryen bastards being needed for dragon riders could also be a clue as to why GRRM made Tyrion go to Dany :)

Didn't Ran say this was an error?

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I see what you are saying, but TYwin is dead now, he died believing the lie Joanna had told him (IMO) so either way Tywin personally never knew, he died thinking he had fathered a disappointing dwarf who killed the King.

Okay, that I recognize as possible (even though I still don't find it particularly likely - any conspiracy of that dimension should have more clues to support it).

Targaryen bastards being needed for dragon riders could also be a clue as to why GRRM made Tyrion go to Dany :)

Most importantly though, Tyrion knows about dragons. That might be much more useful than hopping around on one, even if they can stand him. A great deal has been made about Dany lacking knowledge of that subject and Tyrion having it.

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I see what you are saying, but TYwin is dead now, he died believing the lie Joanna had told him (IMO) so either way Tywin personally never knew, he died thinking he had fathered a disappointing dwarf who killed the King. So it is and always will be a slap in the face for Tywin. I think it is even more ironic, that the thing Tywin wanted most was just to kill Tyrion to NOT have fathered him, and (IMO) it is true, but he died and never even found out. like, haha Tywin.

I just think it would be better of the son Tywin never wanted was the one who carried on the Lannister line and succeed him in being The Lord of Casterly Rock.

If Aerys' is his father, I'd be disapointed because that way Tyrion can't kick his father in his ass (figuratively) and become what his father never wanted to be.

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Okay, that I recognize as possible (even though I still don't find it particularly likely - any conspiracy of that dimension should have more clues to support it).

Most importantly though, Tyrion knows about dragons. That might be much more useful than hopping around on one, even if they can stand him. A great deal has been made about Dany lacking knowledge of that subject and Tyrion having it.

That might be one of the reasons aswell, to help Dany and in return he gets a dragon.

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Not a targ a targ bastard, his obsession with dragons, he dreams of dragons, and the skulls in KL seemed attracted to him compared to Arya

The entire world in ASOIAF are attracted to dragons, does not all of Essos marvel at Daenerys'? They are beasts who breath fire who brought Westeros to it's knees it's perfectly reasonably that anyone should marvel at the skulls. Unless it's greendreams, dreams are a fickle indicator of thing that were/things that are in Westeros.

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The entire world in ASOIAF are attracted to dragons, does not all of Essos marvel at Daenerys'? They are beasts who breath fire who brought Westeros to it's knees it's perfectly reasonably that anyone should marvel at the skulls. Unless it's greendreams, dreams are a fickle indicator of thing that were/things that are in Westeros.

He wasnt attracted, it was described as them being attracted to tyrion, and in another chapter with arya it was described that they didnt like her.

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He wasnt attracted, it was described as them being attracted to tyrion, and in another chapter with arya it was described that they didnt like her.

So a character, observing an inanimate, lifeless object, thinks they're attracted to him? Hardly a Maury Povich "you...are a targ!!!" moment.

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