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Suzanna Stormborn

What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

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I just think it would be better of the son Tywin never wanted was the one who carried on the Lannister line and succeed him in being The Lord of Casterly Rock.

If Aerys' is his father, I'd be disapointed because that way Tyrion can't kick his father in his ass (figuratively) and become what his father never wanted to be.

This is also why I never wanted to believe that Tyrion was a Targaryren, but I never took into consideration that Tyrion would be a Targaryren bastard and would still be a Lannister in name. Plus, he would still be a Lannister on his mother's side.

Technically, Tyrion could still kick his father's figurative ass and become what his father never wanted him to be. I think Tywin questions Tyrion's parentage in his mind, but since he couldn't prove it he had to go along with Tyrion being a Lannister. If Tyrion is actually a Targaryren that would be the biggest insult of all. A Targaryren/Lannister bastard, the product of his wife's rape by the man that he hated, carrying the name Lannister while ruling Casterly Rock...priceless.

Also, there's something about a Targaryen ruling as a Lannister after what the Lannisters have done to the Baratheons that makes me happy. :laugh:

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My position over these matters are quite known. I hate, and repeat hate secret Targaryen/Lannister theories for, IMHO, they have no textual basis.

1. Why would Tywin wait for so long to abandon Aerys, if Aerys indeed impregnated Joanna in 274AC? Why waith for another 6 years when such shame occured?

i said that Tywin didn't know about it. Joanna lied to him

2. If Tyrion was Aerys's, why simply not kill him? After all, Tyrion wasn't his kin. Entire kinslaying thing makes sense if Tyrion is Tywin's son only, not Joanna's. If Tywin married Joanna, he would never see Tyrion as his own blood. So, tolerating dwarf kid makes sense only if he was indeed his.

i said that Tywin didn't know about it. Joanna lied to him

3. There is a difference between dragon dreams and dreams in which we have dragons. It is clearly indicated that every boy in Westeros dreamt of dragons, and Tyrion's dreams have always represented childish desire for power. There is nothing prophetic about them, nothing would suggest those dreams are actually prophetic a la Targaryen dragon dreams.

I agree with you. I stated that these were not prophetic dreams only dreams of a dragon. and where does it say that every boy in westeros has these dreams? which POV states it? I don't think we can make assumptions about things that are never stated in the books.

4. Conjencture OP made is simply based on presented idea, and is not supported by textual evidence. Why Aerys refused Tywin is because he wanted Targaryen blood for his son, like he was obliged to marry, and second to deny Tywin's greatest desire, to have a Queen he can control. Since, no evidence is made ti support the claim that Aerys lost respect towrads Tywin due to cockolding, I have to reject this entire idea.

There is a ton of textual evidence, as stated in the OP and my post on drgaon dreams

5. People, name thread as it is... There is nothing wrong in the title - Tyrion is Targaryen... You inform people what you truly want to discuss, and those that hope to read something new will skip it.

I said in an earlier post. I do not believe tyrion is a targaryen. He is a lannister, raised by Lannisters, mother is a lannister, he is tywin's son, tons of similarities between them, all I am saying is that his biological father is someone else. I do not believe that having a different biological father than the man who raised you has any impact on your life at all. it is just a fact. I titled the thread as such, because it is my main point, that cuckolding Tywin is what caused Aerys to lose respect for Tywin. Tyrion is an accident, not a secret targ like Jon. I think there is a HUGE difference.

So, those of you who want to answer on my points, please do that without answers a la 'It's possible' or 'I think what happened'. I want to hear some textual basis for this claim, not your own desires and conjenctures

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This is also why I never wanted to believe that Tyrion was a Targaryren, but I never took into consideration that Tyrion would be a Targaryren bastard and would still be a Lannister in name. Plus, he would still be a Lannister on his mother's side.

Technically, Tyrion could still kick his father's figurative ass and become what his father never wanted him to be. I think Tywin questions Tyrion's parentage in his mind, but since he couldn't prove it he had to go along with Tyrion being a Lannister. If Tyrion is actually a Targaryren that would be the biggest insult of all. A Targaryren/Lannister bastard, the product of his wife's rape by the man that he hated, carrying the name Lannister while ruling Casterly Rock...priceless.

Also, there's something about a Targaryen ruling as a Lannister after what the Lannisters have done to the Baratheons that makes me happy. :laugh:

yes!! thank you!! Exactly my point! love it!

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Also GRRM said the third rider doesnt necessarily have to be a targaryen which could = Tyrion (Targaryen Bastard)

he didn't say that. What GRRM most likely meant is that rider, first, second, third or tenth don't have to have Targaryen blood at all...

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he didn't say that. What GRRM most likely meant is that rider, first, second, third or tenth don't have to have Targaryen blood at all...

GRRM said that the third head need not be a Targaryen.

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GRRM said that the third head need not be a Targaryen.

Post me the link of that SSM. As I recall, someone asked specifically about third rider or made the first two Targaryens without questioning it.

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"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

http://www.westeros...._Calgary_Canada

Eternal confusion between riders and heads... I forgot it was heads after all he was talking about. And also we don't have specific question quoted there...

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Eternal confusion between riders and heads... I forgot it was heads after all he was talking about. And also we don't have specific question quoted there...

Personally, I think that the riders and the heads might be the same people, but that's just me. I don't believe the theory about one person with three personalities being the three headed dragon.

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This is the most convincing argument I have seen for Tyrion to truly be a Targaryen but along with most people I'm not sure this would be good for the story.

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My position over these matters are quite known. I hate, and repeat hate secret Targaryen/Lannister theories for, IMHO, they have no textual basis.

I feel you, but this did get me thinking a bit.

1. Why would Tywin wait for so long to abandon Aerys, if Aerys indeed impregnated Joanna in 274AC? Why waith for another 6 years when such shame occured?

Power.

Tywin is obsessed with power and furthering the Lannister name. There was no way for Tywin to prove that Aerys fathered Tyrion, and responding to the perceived insult would bring attention to the deed and cause shame for House Lannister. The smartest thing to do would be to accept Tyrion as a lion of the rock, and continue to serve Aerys until he was afforded an opportunity to seek revenge. Tywin has proved repeatedly that he is willing to protect his family name by any means necessary.

Once Aerys began to sink into madness there was no reason to stick around. Not only was it dangerous, but it was no longer politically beneficial to be associated with a mad king.

2. If Tyrion was Aerys's, why simply not kill him? After all, Tyrion wasn't his kin. Entire kinslaying thing makes sense if Tyrion is Tywin's son only, not Joanna's. If Tywin married Joanna, he would never see Tyrion as his own blood. So, tolerating dwarf kid makes sense only if he was indeed his.

The realm believed that Tyrion was his kin, and Tywin could not be sure that Tyrion was not his kin, so he still has the issue of kinslaying. Plus, either way the boy belonged to his wife and was carrying Lannister blood.

3. There is a difference between dragon dreams and dreams in which we have dragons. It is clearly indicated that every boy in Westeros dreamt of dragons, and Tyrion's dreams have always represented childish desire for power. There is nothing prophetic about them, nothing would suggest those dreams are actually prophetic a la Targaryen dragon dreams.

On this, I agree. I need to take a serious look at Tyrion's dreams.

4. Conjencture OP made is simply based on presented idea, and is not supported by textual evidence. Why Aerys refused Tywin is because he wanted Targaryen blood for his son, like he was obliged to marry, and second to deny Tywin's greatest desire, to have a Queen he can control. Since, no evidence is made ti support the claim that Aerys lost respect towrads Tywin due to cockolding, I have to reject this entire idea.

Aerys respected Tywin as his friend/servant, but not as an equal. It wasn't until Tywin became seen as "higher" than the king that Aerys lost all respect for him due to jealously. That is provided in the text. It makes sense that Aerys would rape his wife in order to get some personal validation, especially after he was bold enough to take certain "liberties" on their wedding night.

5. People, name thread as it is... There is nothing wrong in the title - Tyrion is Targaryen... You inform people what you truly want to discuss, and those that hope to read something new will skip it.

So, those of you who want to answer on my points, please do that without answers a la 'It's possible' or 'I think what happened'. I want to hear some textual basis for this claim, not your own desires and conjenctures

I don't believe that it is clear-cut, but there is evidence in the OP, worth discussing, to support the theory. I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, even if I don't want it to be true.

There is only one known Targaryren left in the series, since Aegon, Jon, and Tyrion are debatable. Even if all three are proven to be Targaryrens, we will still have only three true Targaryens in the series. That's not far-fetched.

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Personally, I think that the riders and the heads might be the same people, but that's just me. I don't believe the theory about one person with three personalities being the three headed dragon.

We disagree on that, I actually think it's one person. You could have as much riders as you want...

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This is the most convincing argument I have seen for Tyrion to truly be a Targaryen but along with most people I'm not sure this would be good for the story.

hey thanks a lot!! :cool4: I understand some ppl still dont agree. And that is ok, but when i make this argument I just want posters to understand where i am coming from, and not think that I am just jumping on a band wagon of believers with no proof. I feel like I have a lot of evidence here that makes sense :)

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We disagree on that, I actually think it's one person. You could have as much riders as you want...

With the information that we have, I think that that three heads are separate people. Why else would GRRM say that the third head need not be a Targaryen?

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Personally, I think that the riders and the heads might be the same people, but that's just me. I don't believe the theory about one person with three personalities being the three headed dragon.

I don't believe "the dragon has three-heads" was a part of a prophecy. I think Rhaegar believed that any prominent Targaryren must have two others on their side, like Aegon I and his two sisters. Rhaegar believed his son was the PTWP, so it makes sense that he believed his son needed two others to support him, like Aegon I. Rhaegar had even begun to name his children after Aegon I and his sister wives.

So, I agree that the three headed dragon refers to three separate people.

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I don't believe "the dragon has three-heads" was a part of a prophecy. I think Rhaegar believed that any prominent Targaryren must have two others on their side, like Aegon I and his two sisters. Rhaegar believed his son was the PTWP, so it makes sense that he believed his son needed two others to support him, like Aegon I. Rhaegar had even begun to name his children after Aegon I and his sister wives.

So, I agree that the three headed dragon refers to three separate people.

Rhaegar was wrong though. He was wrong about him being TPTWP and then Aegon. He was also wrong about Aegon being the Song of Ice and Fire.

So I think he misinterpreted any prophecy he read about it, and got it wrong.

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That's Maester Aemon then, not the Dragonknight.

You're right, sorry my mistake :) How the hell have I gone this long thinking they were the same person ??

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Tywin is obsessed with power and furthering the Lannister name. There was no way for Tywin to prove that Aerys fathered Tyrion, and responding to the perceived insult would bring attention to the deed and cause shame for House Lannister. The smartest thing to do would be to accept Tyrion as a lion of the rock, and continue to serve Aerys until he was afforded an opportunity to seek revenge. Tywin has proved repeatedly that he is willing to protect his family name by any means necessary.

Once Aerys began to sink into madness there was no reason to stick around. Not only was it dangerous, but it was no longer politically beneficial to be associated with a mad king.

Aerys was already sinking into madness and Tywin was already the moist capable Hand, and the most powerful man in Westeros. What more power could he hope to get? Also, Tywin isn't Doran to patiently wait and quietly plan. Everything he did in Wo5K suggests that he was quick in reasoning and worked as unstoppable force. He loved Joanna, and no man that harsh who allowed himself to love, would have that patience.

The realm believed that Tyrion was his kin, and Tywin could not be sure that Tyrion was not his kin, so he still has the issue of kinslaying. Plus, either way the boy belonged to his wife and was carrying Lannister blood.

As I said, no invented facts. Either he knew, or didn't. Once you settle this, it is quite easy to see the possible outcomes. If the child wasn't his, he would have killed him and wouldn't bother with talking. Of course, there is issue of kinslaying. As I said, if Tywin married Joanna, than Tyrion wouldn't actually be considered his blood, because that would indicate Joanna and Tywin commited incest. And, simply they didn't.

Aerys respected Tywin as his friend/servant, but not as an equal. It wasn't until Tywin became seen as "higher" than the king that Aerys lost all respect for him due to jealously. That is provided in the text. It makes sense that Aerys would rape his wife in order to get some personal validation, especially after he was bold enough to take certain "liberties" on their wedding night.

You have to sort out when Aerys descended into madness, was it rape or cuckolding. I mean, we go in all directions here, and the worse part is that some of them are completely against the others. You can't argue all the cases.

I don't believe that it is clear-cut, but there is evidence in the OP, worth discussing, to support the theory. I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, even if I don't want it to be true.

I would be surprised if it's true, since I believe GRRM is better than whitewashing his own character with secret heritage that would exonerate of all charges. Tyrion, as character is also so vivid because of his crimes, that include kinslaying. If you take that out of equasion, you have very problematic cliche structure that is in no way in harmony with what's already written.

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