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Suzanna Stormborn

What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

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With the information that we have, I think that that three heads are separate people. Why else would GRRM say that the third head need not be a Targaryen?

Three heads could mean a lot of things. I actually believe that three heads are of constructual importance. That story resolves around three people seen as the most important for solving 2 conflicts in Westeros- political and mythological.

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Rhaegar was wrong though. He was wrong about him being TPTWP and then Aegon. He was also wrong about Aegon being the Song of Ice and Fire.

So I think he misinterpreted any prophecy he read about it, and got it wrong.

Oh yeah, he was dead wrong about everything, but that doesn't change the fact the most of the information we use to interpret the prophecy comes from Rhaegar. I don't believe the "three headed dragon" was included in the PTWP prophecy, so in mu opinion there is no need for a reference to one person with three different personalities.

GRRM's comments on the three headed dragon has led me to believe that Rhaegar was right in his belief that the threesome of Aegon I and his sister will be "reborn", but not how Rhaegar envisioned it. I also doubt that all three will ride a dragon.

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Aerys was already sinking into madness and Tywin was already the moist capable Hand, and the most powerful man in Westeros. What more power could he hope to get? Also, Tywin isn't Doran to patiently wait and quietly plan. Everything he did in Wo5K suggests that he was quick in reasoning and worked as unstoppable force. He loved Joanna, and no man that harsh who allowed himself to love, would have that patience.

he loved her, but look how he dealt with his step mother after his father died, and look how he talked about Shae to Tyrion, then he ends up in bed with her. Bottom line for me is, Twyin is a liar, he likes to put on a good face for the public and do whatever he wants behind closed doors, and I think it is a great part of Tyrion's story to in fact have a different father then this jerk liar.

As I said, no invented facts. Either he knew, or didn't. Once you settle this, it is quite easy to see the possible outcomes. If the child wasn't his, he would have killed him and wouldn't bother with talking. Of course, there is issue of kinslaying. As I said, if Tywin married Joanna, than Tyrion wouldn't actually be considered his blood, because that would indicate Joanna and Tywin commited incest. And, simply they didn't.

I think Tywin did not know, he would have killed the baby and possibly Joanna if he had known.

You have to sort out when Aerys descended into madness, was it rape or cuckolding. I mean, we go in all directions here, and the worse part is that some of them are completely against the others. You can't argue all the cases.

As I said in the OP Tywin does not go mad until after Tyrion was born when he is imprisoned at Duskendale in 267AL. He raped/had sex with Joanna in an effort to assert his dominance over Tywin, and that is why he considers Tywin a joke after it happened. Aerys was sitting the IT having a really great laugh when he finds out that his rape/sex act got Joanna preganant and the kid was a dwarf. that was just icing on the cake for Aerys.

I would be surprised if it's true, since I believe GRRM is better than whitewashing his own character with secret heritage that would exonerate of all charges. Tyrion, as character is also so vivid because of his crimes, that include kinslaying. If you take that out of equasion, you have very problematic cliche structure that is in no way in harmony with what's already written.

I'm sorry I don't really follow this last part.

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Oh yeah, he was dead wrong about everything, but that doesn't change the fact the most of the information we use to interpret the prophecy comes from Rhaegar. I don't believe the "three headed dragon" was included in the PTWP prophecy, so in mu opinion there is no need for a reference to one person with three different personalities.

GRRM's comments on the three headed dragon has led me to believe that Rhaegar was right in his belief that the threesome of Aegon I and his sister will be "reborn", but not how Rhaegar envisioned it. I also doubt that all three will ride a dragon.

I agree. I really don't believe that the three headed dragon is one person.

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Oh yeah, he was dead wrong about everything, but that doesn't change the fact the most of the information we use to interpret the prophecy comes from Rhaegar. I don't believe the "three headed dragon" was included in the PTWP prophecy, so in mu opinion there is no need for a reference to one person with three different personalities.

GRRM's comments on the three headed dragon has led me to believe that Rhaegar was right in his belief that the threesome of Aegon I and his sister will be "reborn", but not how Rhaegar envisioned it. I also doubt that all three will ride a dragon.

Rhaegar combined two prophecies that may not even be connected at all. One about a returning hero and the other, I don't know what it's really prophecising but I don't think it's connected to TPTWP.

And have you got a quote or link about what GRRM said?

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Rhaegar combined two prophecies that may not even be connected at all. One about a returning hero and the other, I don't know what it's really prophecising but I don't think it's connected to TPTWP.

And have you got a quote or link about what GRRM said?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada

"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

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I don't think Aerys ever respected anyone, much less a man as threatening as Tywin. Aerys went to Harrenhall because he thought his own son was plotting to steal his crown. Aerys may not have been as paranoid at the beginning of his reign, but I don't recall anyone ever regarding him with promise. Aerys may have thought of Tywin as a joke, but he was clearly scared of him during the rebellion. Raeghar stated that Aerys was more scared of Tywin than Robert. I think Aerys thought of Tywin as being someone he wanted to be; smart, feared , and respected at the same time.

As for Tyrion, his being a Targ bastard would give him an opening to return and live in westros. Even though he killed Dany's biggest threat, kinslaying is not something she would give him a reward for. Ser Barristan knows all about Tyrion's character, and its not likely he would encourage Dany to take him into her confidence. Regardless of people's feelings of Tywin, they would never accept Tyrion returning to the realm willingly. Yet if Tyrion returned as a ally and friend of Dany they may not be as threatened to his return (assuming she takes power).

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Could be Jon Snow, Jon Targaryen, Jon Stark.

Jon's identity as Jon Snow isn't a Targaryen. I think that GRRM implied that the the other two heads are Targaryens.

ETA: I believe that Dany and Jon are two of the the heads.

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Jon's identity as Jon Snow isn't a Targaryen. I think that GRRM implied that the the other two heads are Targaryens.

ETA: I believe that Dany and Jon are two of the the heads.

Jon's identity as Jon Snow isn't a Targaryen. I think that GRRM implied that the the other two heads are Targaryens.

ETA: I believe that Dany and Jon are two of the the heads.

:agree:

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Suzanna, first you must learn to multiquote for I can't follow your replies on my posts

he loved her, but look how he dealt with his step mother after his father died, and look how he talked about Shae to Tyrion, then he ends up in bed with her. Bottom line for me is, Twyin is a liar, he likes to put on a good face for the public and do whatever he wants behind closed doors, and I think it is a great part of Tyrion's story to in fact have a different father then this jerk liar.

This is such wrong comparison. We heard from people who knew Tywin best, Kevan and Genna, that he indeed was in love with Joanna. His relatiionship with Joanna in no way can be compared to his father's mistress or Shae.

I think Tywin did not know, he would have killed the baby and possibly Joanna if he had known.

So, and I am now catching for the tail of previous arguments, 'You are not son of mine' means nothing to your theory for Tywin didn't know Tyrion isn't his son.

As I said in the OP Tywin does not go mad until after Tyrion was born when he is imprisoned at Duskendale in 267AL. He raped/had sex with Joanna is an effort to assure his dominance over Tywin, and that is why he considers Tywin a joke after it happened. Aerys was sitting the IT having a really great laugh when he finds out that his rape/sex act got Joanna preganant and the kid was a dwarf. that was just icing on the cake for Aerys.

The theory also makes no sense, especially given that Joanna could have ended pregnancy so easily if she wanted. Your timeine is wrong. Defiance of Duskendale happened 276 AC, two years after Tyrion's birth. And during it, the first obvious public strife between Tywin and Aerys occured, when Tywin refused to budge. Before that, nothing would suggest that Tywin would like to humiliate Tywin in that way.

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but Jon isn't even riding a dragon yet and Dany is. So she is the first rider.

Yes, she could be first rider, but rider and head are not the same thing...

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Suzanna, first you must learn to multiquote for I can't follow your replies on my posts

This is such wrong comparison. We heard from people who knew Tywin best, Kevan and Genna, that he indeed was in love with Joanna. His relatiionship with Joanna in no way can be compared to his father's mistress or Shae.

So, and I am now catching for the tail of previous arguments, 'You are not son of mine' means nothing to your theory for Tywin didn't know Tyrion isn't his son.

The theory also makes no sense, especially given that Joanna could have ended pregnancy so easily if she wanted. Your timeine is wrong. Defiance of Duskendale happened 276 AC, two years after Tyrion's birth. And during it, the first obvious public strife between Tywin and Aerys occured, when Tywin refused to budge. Before that, nothing would suggest that Tywin would like to humiliate Tywin in that way.

We don't know what type of woman Joanna was, not all women go for abortion even if raped.

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Suzanna, first you must learn to multiquote for I can't follow your replies on my posts

So, and I am now catching for the tail of previous arguments, 'You are not son of mine' means nothing to your theory for Tywin didn't know Tyrion isn't his son.

Yes months ago I thought tywin knew, but after much research I do not think it is possible Tywin knew. I think his final words "you are no son of mine' is wishful thinking from Tywin and just one last insult to Tyrion but I also think it is a hint from GRRM to us, because I still strongly believe that last words are very meaningful.

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I also think that the third head will have Targaryen blood, so it will most likely be either a Targaryen bastard/a person with Targaryen blood that doesn't have the last name 'Targaryen' or a Blackfyre (Aegon).

ETA: Dany, Jon, Aegon (or if this theory of Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard is true, then the last one will be Tyrion).

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We don't know what type of woman Joanna was, not all women go for abortion even if raped.

Yes and there is simply not a ton of info about Joanna from her child-birthing years. Definitely not enough to prove or disprove this theory.

MLaden

Also even though we heard from his relatives that he really loved Joanna, I do not think Tywin is the kind of person to overlook slights made against him. I think if he knew his wife slept with someone else he would kill her. He is such a liar, the way he gives Tyrion crap about sleeping with whores his ENTIRE LIFE, but then he is caught in bed with Shae. That scene is sooooo telling, it clearly explains that Tywin was literally and figuratively full of shit. Nothing he said holds up because he was caught with Shae, don't you see what GRRM was doing. He was letting us all know with those few precious pages that Tywin was a liar and nothing he said meant anything. I think it was absolutely genius writing, with one scene we see how Tyrion is no worse that his judgmental down-talking father. At least Tyrion owned up to the fact that he loved whores, Twyin ridicules him over and over and then does the exact same thing. I love it

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We don't know what type of woman Joanna was, not all women go for abortion even if raped.

Follow the argument: She was raped by the King, as far as she knew she could be bearing child with Targaryen traits, and is married to the Hand of the King, one of the most powerful and cruel person in the Kingdoms. And she would risk bringing child whose appearence would leave no doubts who its father is. According to what we heard about her, Joanna was too smart to allow that.

Yes months ago I thought tywin knew, but after much research I do not think it is possible Tywin knew. I think his final words "you are no son of mine' is wishful thinking from Tywin and just one last insult to Tyrion but I also think it is a hint from GRRM to us, because I still strongly believe that last words are very meaningful.

OK, then... It makes more sense if Tywin never knew, but I doubt that child would ever be born if Joanna indeed had sex/was raped with Aerys and got pregnant.

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MLaden

Also even though we heard from his relatives that he really loved Joanna, I do not think Tywin is the kind of person to overlook slights made against him. I think if he knew his wife slept with someone else he would kill her. He is such a liar, the way he gives Tyrion crap about sleeping with whores his ENTIRE LIFE, but then he is caught in bed with Shae. That scene is sooooo telling, it clearly explains that Tywin was literally and figuratively full of shit. Nothing he said holds up because he was caught with Shae, don't you see what GRRM was doing. He was letting us all know with those few precious pages that Tywin was a liar and nothing he said meant anything. I think it was absolutely genius writing, with one scene we see how Tyrion is no worse that his judgmental down-talking father. At least Tyrion owned up to the fact that he loved whores, Twyin ridicules him over and over and then does the exact same thing. I love it

Suzanna you forgot Varys; words to Tyrion: 'you knew who she was' (about Shae). The situation with Joanna and Sahe can't be compared. Also, I don't think that Tywin's relationship with Shae was purely sexual.

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Aerys was already sinking into madness and Tywin was already the moist capable Hand, and the most powerful man in Westeros. What more power could he hope to get? Also, Tywin isn't Doran to patiently wait and quietly plan. Everything he did in Wo5K suggests that he was quick in reasoning and worked as unstoppable force. He loved Joanna, and no man that harsh who allowed himself to love, would have that patience.

Tywin was the hand of the king, the second most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms by name, and that is not something you walk away from due to a perceived insult that you do not wish to become public knowledge. With that title and his money, he was in a great position, especially if he could out live Aerys and counsel the next king. He may have another opportunity to bring his family into the royal line. He stuck around waiting to suggest a marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei, so I believe that Tywin had great patience. There is no other reason for the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms to become the Hand of the King, except to lift his family name, and there was still the possibility that his grandchildren could become royals.

Nothing, not even Joanna, came before his agenda of lifting his family name as high as possible.

Tywin showed great patience during the War of the Five Kings, otherwise he would have lost.

As I said, no invented facts. Either he knew, or didn't. Once you settle this, it is quite easy to see the possible outcomes. If the child wasn't his, he would have killed him and wouldn't bother with talking. Of course, there is issue of kinslaying. As I said, if Tywin married Joanna, than Tyrion wouldn't actually be considered his blood, because that would indicate Joanna and Tywin commited incest. And, simply they didn't.

I didn't invent any facts.

There was no way for Tywin to know if Tyrion was his son or not, regardless of what he may have believed. Plus, Tywin believed in the gods and more than likely didn't want to risk kinslaying. Joanna and Tywin were cousins. Joanna had Lannister blood and so would Tyrion regardless of his father.

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him." -Tywin Lannister

You have to sort out when Aerys descended into madness, was it rape or cuckolding. I mean, we go in all directions here, and the worse part is that some of them are completely against the others. You can't argue all the cases.

His descent into madness has no part to play in the rape of Joanna. He could have raped Joanna without being mad. Plus, we know Tywin left after Duskendale, and by then Aerys was mad and dangerous.

Yes, there are many directions, and that is the point. You can argue every case if it is a possibility, and that is the point of the forum. There is no way to totally dismiss Tyrion as a Targaryren and no way to totally prove it. There's no harm is discussing it until the truth is revealed to us one way or the other, and it could always be left to interpretation by the end.

I would be surprised if it's true, since I believe GRRM is better than whitewashing his own character with secret heritage that would exonerate of all charges. Tyrion, as character is also so vivid because of his crimes, that include kinslaying. If you take that out of equasion, you have very problematic cliche structure that is in no way in harmony with what's already written.

Well, it all comes down to a matter of opinion.

I don't see being a Targaryren as whitewashing his character, nor would it exonerate him of all charges. Tyrion would still be the same character, and he would still have believed that he was killing his own father when he murdered Tywin. In my view, the act of kinslaying is suppose to be horrendous because you are killing someone with which you supposedly have an emotional attachment, not just a blood relation.

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