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Suzanna Stormborn

What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

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This whole Aerys Joanna thing in ADWD seems like a false trail set up by George, though I suppose it could be true. This is a very popular fan theory and he is probably aware of it. Though I suppose if Aerys did rape Joanna or had an affair with her (doubtful) he in his own sick way would have felt dominant over Tywin. Perhaps that is why Tywin was so brutal in retaliation, killing Elia and her children was a way for him to tip the scales in an even more sick way. I can't tell which of these two guys is worse.

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I don't see being a Targaryren as whitewashing his character, nor would it exonerate him of all charges. Tyrion would still be the same character, and he would still have believed that he was killing his own father when he murdered Tywin. In my view, the act of kinslaying is suppose to be horrendous because you are killing someone with which you supposedly have an emotional attachment, not just a blood relation.

This is my main point, Everything that happened between Tyrion and Tywin, right up to the minute of Tywin's death, was real, it happened, tyrion killed his father and his nephew. nothing that we find out later on will change any of that. Nature vs Nurture. Tyrion had and still has no inkling he is not Tywin's son (if this theory is correct) so his entire life will be the same in his mind, and definitely in Tywins mind, because he died thinking "oh shit, my embarrassing dwarf son just killed me" nothing will change that. the only thing this theory will do for Tyrion later on (when and if he ever finds out) is probably to make Dany be OK with him and possibly make the dragons like him. Also, like i have said before, it will be funny, it will be the funniest thing Tyrion has ever heard in his life, not only did he kill this dick who treated him poorly his entire life but he will find out what a joke Tywin actually is. I already see what a joke Tywin is, me and Aerys laugh about it all the time. Eventually, somehow, more people will be let in on the joke.

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Rhaegar combined two prophecies that may not even be connected at all. One about a returning hero and the other, I don't know what it's really prophecising but I don't think it's connected to TPTWP.

And have you got a quote or link about what GRRM said?

Personally, I believe that there was one prophecy concerning a returning hero (the one read by Rhaegar), and the wood witch's prophecy which is connected to the same prophecy that was read by Rhaegar.

I firmly believe that Rhaegar read the AAR prophecy, and he correctly believed that the wood witch's prophecy was foretelling the arrival of AAR. Rhaegar got the "prince" wrong though, it wasn't Aegon or himself. It was his last son...Jon Snow.

But that's just me...I may be extremely wrong. :P

Jon's identity as Jon Snow isn't a Targaryen. I think that GRRM implied that the the other two heads are Targaryens.

ETA: I believe that Dany and Jon are two of the the heads.

Technically speaking, Jon would be a Targaryren.

Yes months ago I thought tywin knew, but after much research I do not think it is possible Tywin knew. I think his final words "you are no son of mine' is wishful thinking from Tywin and just one last insult to Tyrion but I also think it is a hint from GRRM to us, because I still strongly believe that last words are very meaningful.

I think he suspected, but had no way of knowing.

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One of the main reason Aerys lost respect for Tywin was jealousy. Aerys was sick of hearing people say that it was actually Tywin that ruled the 7 Kingdoms. Ilyn Payne having his tongue cut out is evidence of this. Jealousy was also the main reason he refused to marry Rhaegar to Cersei.

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Technically speaking, Jon would be a Targaryren.

The proponents of the theory that Jon is the three-headed dragon claim that he is the dragon due to his three different identities/personalities. The theory that it is Jon Snow, Jon Targaryen and Jon Stark could work that way, without the knowledge of the SSM I posted, but that theory is incorrect now, IMO, because GRRM has said that the third head "need not BE a Targaryen" which implies that the first two are Targaryens. If we follow the theory that Jon is the three headed dragon because of his identities/personalities, he cannot be the three headed dragon because Jon's identity as Jon Snow is not a Targaryen. Neither is Jon Stark, actually.

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The proponents of the theory that Jon is the three-headed dragon claim that he is the dragon due to his three different identities/personalities. The theory that it is Jon Snow, Jon Targaryen and Jon Stark could work that way, without the knowledge of the SSM I posted, but that theory is incorrect now, IMO, because GRRM has said that the third head "need not BE a Targaryen" which implies that the first two are Targaryens. If we follow the theory that Jon is the three headed dragon because of his identities/personalities, he cannot be the three headed dragon because Jon's identity as Jon Snow is not a Targaryen. Neither is Jon Stark, actually.

True. I agree with you.

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All you guys who see Aerys being Tyrion's father as a problem for the Tywin-Tyrion-relationship should keep mind that

1. Tywin is dead, so none of this really matters.

2. This thing could indeed explain/add yet another layer of complexity to the Tyrion-Tywin-relationship: It may very well explain why the hell Tywin did not like Tyrion all that much.

3. It would make the exploration of the Lannister-Targaryen past as interesting as the exploration of the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing.

4. Yet another layer suspense/conflict between Jaime and Tyrion. Jaime would then be the murderer of Tyrion's father with Tyrion being the murderer of Jaime's father. And they will end up on different sides.

5. Nothing changes between Tywin and Tyrion. He still remains his legal father, and he would not suddenly think of Aerys Targaryen as his father. More importantly, Tyrion is still a Lannister through his mother Joanna, and might thus still end up as Lord of Casterly Rock. Especially if his half-sister Daenerys is going to become Queen.

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True. I agree with you.

Yes I totally agree too. When the SSM is seen it makes it clear that we are talking about 3 different literal people. I don't see how this can be argued any further.

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I do think that Dany and Jon are two heads, though.

Me too.

I just don't think that "head of the dragon" equals "rider of a dragon".

Yes I totally agree too. When the SSM is seen it makes it clear that we are talking about 3 different literal people. I don't see how this can be argued any further.

I can see how it can be interpreted as three personalities, but I disagree with that interpretation...especially in relation to Jon.

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All you guys who see Aerys being Tyrion's father as a problem for the Tywin-Tyrion-relationship should keep mind that

1. Tywin is dead, so none of this really matters.

2. This thing could indeed explain/add yet another layer of complexity to the Tyrion-Tywin-relationship: It may very well explain why the hell Tywin did not like Tyrion all that much.

3. It would make the exploration of the Lannister-Targaryen past as interesting as the exploration of the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing.

4. Yet another layer suspense/conflict between Jaime and Tyrion. Jaime would then be the murderer of Tyrion's father with Tyrion being the murderer of Jaime's father. And they will end up on different sides.

5. Nothing changes between Tywin and Tyrion. He still remains his legal father, and he would not suddenly think of Aerys Targaryen as his father. More importantly, Tyrion is still a Lannister through his mother Joanna, and might thus still end up as Lord of Casterly Rock. Especially if his half-sister Daenerys is going to become Queen.

Hey now!! This is a sensible post :) Awesome! exactly what I was saying.

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The thing is though, if Tywin even thought Tyrion wasn't his, he'd kill him or try to.

I disagree.

There was no way for Tywin to know --for sure-- if Tyrion was his son or not, regardless of what he may have believed. Plus, Tywin believed in the gods and more than likely didn't want to risk kinslaying. Joanna and Tywin were cousins. Joanna had Lannister blood and so would Tyrion regardless of his father.

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The thing is though, if Tywin even thought Tyrion wasn't his, he'd kill him or try to.

I completely agree, that's why I think he did not know. which makes it funnier, he wanted it so bad, more than anything really, then he died and afterwards we will all (IMO) find out he wasnt Tywins son. Plus even if he did have an inkling of it, his wife dies very soon after. And in a quote from Cersei from FFC;

'Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one daywhen he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King’s Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King’s Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in Kin’s Landing when she and Jaime were young. If he wept when they brought him word of his father’s death, he did it where no one could see the tears.'

So Tywin was not around very much when they were little Tyrion was born when the twins were 6. So there was really only a 9 month span between JOanna getting raped/having sex with Aerys and her death. Really not very much time to talk about it with Tywin. And we don't know if Joanna was the kind of woman who would love the baby no matter who the father, but if she did, then she would definitely have kept it a secret from Tywin, maybe even made him promise to look out for the baby after she had him but before she died. Plus he probably thought of Tyrion as the last piece of his beloved wife, I'm sure that is what kept him from killing Tyrion.

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I disagree.

There was no way for Tywin to know --for sure-- if Tyrion was his son or not, regardless of what he may have believed. Plus, Tywin believed in the gods and more than likely didn't want to risk kinslaying. Joanna and Tywin were cousins. Joanna had Lannister blood and so would Tyrion regardless of his father.

He could have gotten someone else to kill Tyrion. I don't think he'd have hesitated one bit if Tywin got proof Tyrion wasn't his.

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He could have gotten someone else to kill Tyrion. I don't think he'd have hesitated one bit if Tywin got proof Tyrion wasn't his.

True, but I think that he was always conflicted about it.

I also think Tywin saw a lot of himself in Tyrion, which made him even more conflicted.

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He could have gotten someone else to kill Tyrion. I don't think he'd have hesitated one bit if Tywin got proof Tyrion wasn't his.

Exactly why I am convinced he did not know. You are totally right, he would have killed him if he knew. Also if he knew he wouldn't spend so many lines in the books saying things like "if I could prove you weren't mine....' and things like that. That's why it's funny, because he wanted it so bad, but he died not knowing what he wanted most was actually true.

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True, but I think that he was always conflicted about it.

I also think Tywin saw a lot of himself in Tyrion, which made him even more conflicted.

If Tywin saw a lot of him in Tyrion, doesn't that mean then Tyrion is his?

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