Suzanna Stormborn Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 Ok finished with the OP and the new development of this theory. I know it's long, but there is just sooooo much info on A+J=T. At this point I seriously think the amount of evidence rivals R+L=J. I would really love any new thoughts on any part of it. :) Ill be posting more in October when the world book comes out I am sure :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 If A+J=T, then it should be important and George has to reveal it in-story. However, George cannot reveal such a thing inside the story without ass-pulls at this point of the story where no witness is alive. The only possible option is that a person will come up with a prophetic dream implying A+J=T, which will definitely look like an ass-pull. BUT... If Gerion Lannister is the Corsair King as some people suspect, then he is the only one who can reveal intimate Lannister family dynamics. OTOH, it will still look like an ass-pull if Gerion comes and says that he saw Aerys-Joanna making out. BUT... If G+J=T, then George can introduce it with the arrival of Gerion and work out its consequences without pulling ass-pulls. And I think it would be great fun to read. Tyrion learns that his favorite uncle is his biological father. But that makes him a bastard and destroys his claim to CR. Gerion becomes bound to take CR and he may also be favored by Dany greatly. Dany might even fall in love with that dangerous and badass pirate king who knows his way with women. This might drive Tyrion to commit treason for gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 If A+J=T, then it should be important and George has to reveal it in-story. However, George cannot reveal such a thing inside the story without ass-pulls at this point of the story where no witness is alive. The only possible option is that a person will come up with a prophetic dream implying A+J=T, which will definitely look like an ass-pull. BUT... If Gerion Lannister is the Corsair King as some people suspect, then he is the only one who can reveal intimate Lannister family dynamics. OTOH, it will still look like an ass-pull if Gerion comes and says that he saw Aerys-Joanna making out. BUT... If G+J=T, then George can introduce it with the arrival of Gerion and work out its consequences without pulling ass-pulls. And I think it would be great fun to read. Tyrion learns that his favorite uncle is his biological father. But that makes him a bastard and destroys his claim to CR. Gerion becomes bound to take CR and he may also be favored by Dany greatly. Dany might even fall in love with that dangerous and badass pirate king who knows his way with women. This might drive Tyrion to commit treason for gold. That is so funny that you posted on this thread last night, I was thinking about it yesterday. Anyway I think you are right that Gerion will be the one who tells Tyrion. He doesnt have to necesarily have seen them making out, it could be something else. Maybe there is another incident like Tywin and Joanna's wedding night where Aerys couldn't control himself. As I said in the OP I think the conception night was in 272, then he was born in 273. 272 was Aerys' 10 year anniversary of being on the IT, there could have been a party that the Hand and his wife would definitely be at. Other than that there could have been another wedding at court or something.......Anyway maybe something happened between Aerys and Joanna and not so many people knew about it, It seems like many people knew about Aerys 'taking liberties' on Joanna's wedding night, but if it happened again it might not be common knowledge. And obviously this would have all been BEFORE Gerion left Westeros. ...... I agree with you that for Tyrion to actually find out about this it will be a difficult trick from GRRM to pull, but I wouldnt call it an ass-pull. Even though many many posters call me crazy and say there is no evidence supporting this theory, if you look through my OP there is a shit-ton of evidence and hints. Personally I think Tyrion will start to realize it when he gets close to Viserion. I mean he said flat out to BBP "The dragons like you because you have targaryen blood." SO I am sure he would apply that same reasoning to himself. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 There's always the speculation that Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out by Aerys because of something he saw, not something he said. That gives you another potential witness. I'm keeping an open mind on all A+J theories. There are many little tidbits that are either actual clues or intentional red herrings. GRRM wants us to speculate on this, but is sitting on enough info to keep us from reaching a valid conclusion. He's in a position to do that quite effectively. I can't outguess him, so I'm not going to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 There's always the speculation that Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out by Aerys because of something he saw, not something he said. That gives you another potential witness. I'm keeping an open mind on all A+J theories. There are many little tidbits that are either actual clues or intentional red herrings. GRRM wants us to speculate on this, but is sitting on enough info to keep us from reaching a valid conclusion. He's in a position to do that quite effectively. I can't outguess him, so I'm not going to try. no matter how much I try to think, there really is hardly anyone who might still be alive that knows about this. Gerion, Illyn Payne, obviously not Barristan, Not Varys, Pycelle is dead, maybe Harys Swift? Maybe some maid or servant at the Rock or in KL......This is a tricky part of the scenario for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'm pretty sure Barristan knows. He is sort of touchy with the Joanna-Aerys story, in a way that's not in there when he talks about Rhaella and Ser Bonifer. He could have easily been the knight guarding the king's chamber in the night when Tyrion was conceived. And Varys may have known or suspected the truth, too. There must have been a reason why he recruited him to 'the Targaryen cause' in the first place. The fact that Tyrion never recalls a meeting or a talk with Ser Barristan ever in the whole series is kind of interesting, too. Surely Barristan would have been somewhat distant or awkward around Tyrion if he knew the truth, and Tyrion would have realized. Perhaps Barristan was overly kind to or overly abhorred by Tyrion? If Tyrion accidentally becomes a dragonrider in battle, he will realize the truth. If not, though, then Barristan may reveal the truth to him and possibly force him to try to claim a dragon like one of Rhaenyra's dragonseeds of old... And, of course, if Tyrion becomes a dragonrider before he meets Barristan, Barristan will explain things to him afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'm pretty sure Barristan knows. He is sort of touchy with the Joanna-Aerys story, in a way that's not in there when he talks about Rhaella and Ser Bonifer. He could have easily been the knight guarding the king's chamber in the night when Tyrion was conceived. And Varys may have known or suspected the truth, too. There must have been a reason why he recruited him to 'the Targaryen cause' in the first place. The fact that Tyrion never recalls a meeting or a talk with Ser Barristan ever in the whole series is kind of interesting, too. Surely Barristan would have been somewhat distant or awkward around Tyrion if he knew the truth, and Tyrion would have realized. Perhaps Barristan was overly kind to or overly abhorred by Tyrion? If Tyrion accidentally becomes a dragonrider in battle, he will realize the truth. If not, though, then Barristan may reveal the truth to him and possibly force him to try to claim a dragon like one of Rhaenyra's dragonseeds of old... And, of course, if Tyrion becomes a dragonrider before he meets Barristan, Barristan will explain things to him afterwards. I was thinking Varys as well, but Varys only left Pentos and started working for Aerys a few years before the rebellion right? Which would have been after Tyrion was born...I think....I'm not sure if there is an exact year that Aerys summoned Varys?? The tourney was in 281 and Tyrion was born in 273. I thnk that Varys came over around 278 ish..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The year would not necessarily matter all that much. Varys is good at digging up secrets, and I guess he would have been interested in finding out anything he could on the Aerys-Tywin relationship. But he certainly would not have been in KL during the time Tyrion was conceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 If A+J=T, then it should be important and George has to reveal it in-story. However, George cannot reveal such a thing inside the story without ass-pulls at this point of the story where no witness is alive. The only possible option is that a person will come up with a prophetic dream implying A+J=T, which will definitely look like an ass-pull. Comments like this one confuse me. I am pretty sure that you accept that R+L=J. Very few people ever knew RLJ, and perhaps Howland Reed and maybe Wylla are the only remaining living people who know RLJ. But I don't think anyone considers the ultimate reveal of RLJ to be reliant on an ass-pull. GRRM may try to avoid tropes and deus ex machina--but he also is writing a story with many twists and turns and perilous situations with "last minute" saves, etc. (and "shadow babies" are pretty close to deus ex machina). GRRM plotted the outline over 15 years ago--if A+J=T, GRRM knows how it will be revealed and has built or will build enough backdrop to support it. Arguably, if Selmy is the source of the reveal, the readers have already gotten clues as pointed out by LV (post #147). I have been a long-time believer in A+J=T from having read all 688 posts in the original A+J=T thread (a great read for people who want a full back-and-forth debate on all the fine points--spoiler alert, the main argument against seems to be people's belief that it would "ruin" the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion--an argument I find wholly unconvincing). What ultimately convinces me is that if the dragon has three heads--then the three heads must have dragon blood (notwithstanding GRRM saying the third head is not "necessarily" a Targaryen--which Tyrion technically would not be in any event as a non-legitimized Targ bastard (Tyrion Hill, actually) and be in some respects "of the dragon" (i.e., of House Targ). And the right "drop" of Targ blood from some Targ princess that married a Lannister generations ago does not seem to be sufficient to be "of the dragon" (and I suspect next week when we get the full Lannister family tree, there won't be any Targ ancestors). So if the third head is "of the dragon" then there has to be another secret Targ. I don't think it works to argue it could be someone like Stannis because even though he has some Targ blood (through his grandmother, Rhaelle), he is not "of the dragon" rather he is a Baratheon (a stag, not a dragon). So if you are trying to find who else could be the third head, Tyrion seems to be the only plausible candidate by process of elimination. And the parallels among Jon, Dany and Tyrion are striking (such as the death of their mothers in connection with their births, and other similarities). A late-comer to the story, like (f)Aegon, will not play such as critical role as being one of the three heads of the dragon. Then you see the clues that alone might mean nothing (such as Tyrion's hair color, mismatched eyes, love of dragons, etc.) suggest that GRRM is giving the reader intentional hints that Tyrion is a Targ. Each one alone can be explained--and without the context of being the third head and having the parallels to Jon and Dany, perhaps they would be simply written off as coincidence as there would not seem to be any purpose to making Tyrion a Targ. But in combination, all of these clues suggest that GRRM will reveal that A+J=T because it will be central to Tryion as one of the three heads of the dragon who will save humanity in the Battle for the Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Well, considering that only Tyrion is close to Rhaegal and Viserion right now, one of the dragons may get a rider who is not one of the heads of the dragon, either due to Dragonbinder, or because other people - Brown Ben Plumm, Aegon, other Targaryen descendants - successfully claim one of them. We should also consider the possibility that Jon ends up with another as of yet unknown dragon. There is this weird last Bran chapter of ACoK, and the fact that Jaehaerys I brought six dragons to Winterfell. Such a hatchling would be somewhat younger than Dany's, but not necessarily much smaller considering that it would have had the chance to feed on all the game in the North at will. It would also be no surprise that nobody had seen in yet, considering the fact how few people live in the North. This has been suggested ages ago for the first time, but in regards to time line i think we'll get the attack of the Others, the revelation about Jon and Tyrion at roughly the same time in the same book, and it would be much more powerful if it was some sort of 'I am your father' cliché (in Jon's case especially: 'Who cares who my father is? I've a war to fight!') but accompanied by/or expressed through the fact that both of them mount a dragon. But Jon simply can't get close to one of Dany's dragons for quite some time, and it would also be much more interesting if another faction (i.e. Aegon or Euron) would also get a dragon to really make a second Dance possible (although I admit that Tyrion Hill could join Aegon instead of Dany if she does not return and he is eventually forced to leave or convinced she's dead - he knows that Aegon is bound for Westeros, after all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Comments like this one confuse me. I am pretty sure that you accept that R+L=J. Very few people ever knew RLJ, and perhaps Howland Reed and maybe Wylla are the only remaining living people who know RLJ. But I don't think anyone considers the ultimate reveal of RLJ to be reliant on an ass-pull. GRRM may try to avoid tropes and deus ex machina--but he also is writing a story with many twists and turns and perilous situations with "last minute" saves, etc. (and "shadow babies" are pretty close to deus ex machina). GRRM plotted the outline over 15 years ago--if A+J=T, GRRM knows how it will be revealed and has built or will build enough backdrop to support it. Arguably, if Selmy is the source of the reveal, the readers have already gotten clues as pointed out by LV (post #147). I have been a long-time believer in A+J=T from having read all 688 posts in the original A+J=T thread (a great read for people who want a full back-and-forth debate on all the fine points--spoiler alert, the main argument against seems to be people's belief that it would "ruin" the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion--an argument I find wholly unconvincing). What ultimately convinces me is that if the dragon has three heads--then the three heads must have dragon blood (notwithstanding GRRM saying the third head is not "necessarily" a Targaryen--which Tyrion technically would not be in any event as a non-legitimized Targ bastard (Tyrion Hill, actually) and be in some respects "of the dragon" (i.e., of House Targ). And the right "drop" of Targ blood from some Targ princess that married a Lannister generations ago does not seem to be sufficient to be "of the dragon" (and I suspect next week when we get the full Lannister family tree, there won't be any Targ ancestors). So if the third head is "of the dragon" then there has to be another secret Targ. I don't think it works to argue it could be someone like Stannis because even though he has some Targ blood (through his grandmother, Rhaelle), he is not "of the dragon" rather he is a Baratheon (a stag, not a dragon). So if you are trying to find who else could be the third head, Tyrion seems to be the only plausible candidate by process of elimination. And the parallels among Jon, Dany and Tyrion are striking (such as the death of their mothers in connection with their births, and other similarities). A late-comer to the story, like (f)Aegon, will not play such as critical role as being one of the three heads of the dragon. Then you see the clues that alone might mean nothing (such as Tyrion's hair color, mismatched eyes, love of dragons, etc.) suggest that GRRM is giving the reader intentional hints that Tyrion is a Targ. Each one alone can be explained--and without the context of being the third head and having the parallels to Jon and Dany, perhaps they would be simply written off as coincidence as there would not seem to be any purpose to making Tyrion a Targ. But in combination, all of these clues suggest that GRRM will reveal that A+J=T because it will be central to Tryion as one of the three heads of the dragon who will save humanity in the Battle for the Dawn. Yes thank you, this explains it very well. yes some of my 'evidence' in the OP could be considered very loose or not evidence at all according to some. For example,posters have countered with the fact that Arya also wistfully thinks of dragons from time to time as TYrion does, but there is no theory about Arya being a possible Targ, so that is a rather pointless argument. In the case of Tyrion though, whom is much more likely to actually be 1/2 targaryen, when all the evidence is piled together it makes a VERY convincing argument. Ok my thing with the "It will ruin the Tywin/TYrion realtionship".. This is simply not true and completely impossible. Tywin is DEAD, he died long before any of this. Their relationship can never be changed, it happened and he's dead, the only thing it will change is possibly how Tyrion feels about his father now. IMO he will think it is funny, his father always hated him and now Tyrion will be blessed with the knowledge that he is not that assholes son. He is some other assholes son, but not the same asshole who abused him his whole life. Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar and was denied, so its ironic and funny that his 3rd unwanted son is actually part of the family that Tywin coveted. To me that is hilariously ironic and I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Well, considering that only Tyrion is close to Rhaegal and Viserion right now, one of the dragons may get a rider who is not one of the heads of the dragon, either due to Dragonbinder, or because other people - Brown Ben Plumm, Aegon, other Targaryen descendants - successfully claim one of them. We should also consider the possibility that Jon ends up with another as of yet unknown dragon. There is this weird last Bran chapter of ACoK, and the fact that Jaehaerys I brought six dragons to Winterfell. Such a hatchling would be somewhat younger than Dany's, but not necessarily much smaller considering that it would have had the chance to feed on all the game in the North at will. It would also be no surprise that nobody had seen in yet, considering the fact how few people live in the North. This has been suggested ages ago for the first time, but in regards to time line i think we'll get the attack of the Others, the revelation about Jon and Tyrion at roughly the same time in the same book, and it would be much more powerful if it was some sort of 'I am your father' cliché (in Jon's case especially: 'Who cares who my father is? I've a war to fight!') but accompanied by/or expressed through the fact that both of them mount a dragon. But Jon simply can't get close to one of Dany's dragons for quite some time, and it would also be much more interesting if another faction (i.e. Aegon or Euron) would also get a dragon to really make a second Dance possible (although I admit that Tyrion Hill could join Aegon instead of Dany if she does not return and he is eventually forced to leave or convinced she's dead - he knows that Aegon is bound for Westeros, after all). Oh yes, I am quite sure that there will be a few riders to ride and die on rhaegal and Viserion before the final three heads are established. We know from the Arianne sample chapter that Telora Toland is having prophetic dragon dreams about an upcoming Dance of Dragons where people die So we must assume that all three dragons will not be on the same side for the rest of the novels, or that, like you said, there is another dragon hidden somewhere..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Well, I always thought that Toland girl was referring to Quentyn's dance with a dragon. The Arianne chapter could have taken place before Quentyn's death for all I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Ok my thing with the "It will ruin the Tywin/TYrion realtionship".. This is simply not true and completely impossible. Tywin is DEAD, he died long before any of this. Their relationship can never be changed, it happened and he's dead, the only thing it will change is possibly how Tyrion feels about his father now. IMO he will think it is funny, his father always hated him and now Tyrion will be blessed with the knowledge that he is not that assholes son. He is some other assholes son, but not the same asshole who abused him his whole life. Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar and was denied, so its ironic and funny that his 3rd unwanted son is actually part of the family that Tywin coveted. To me that is hilariously ironic and I love it. To be fair to those people--even though I disagree with them--they are not suggesting it changes the relationship between Tyrion and a dead guy--but rather the "literary" understanding of the relationship from the readers' point of view changes. Basically, they suggest that from the readers' point of view, Tywin was completely unjustified in his treatment of Tyrion and could not accept Tyrion as Tywin's true heir even though Tyrion really was the child who emulated Tywin the most--but if Tyrion really is not his son, then somehow his treatment is more justified and the literary irony of Tywin denying the birthright to his "true" son is ruined. I completely disagree, in part because, as you stated, Tywin is dead so I don't agree that Tywin's actions retroactively become more justified, but also because it introduces a host of new ironies (one of which you noted). Maybe I am not doing justice to their argument because I don't buy into it--but I don't think they were overlooking the fact that Tywin was dead. Oh yes, I am quite sure that there will be a few riders to ride and die on rhaegal and Viserion before the final three heads are established. We know from the Arianne sample chapter that Telora Toland is having prophetic dragon dreams about an upcoming Dance of Dragons where people die So we must assume that all three dragons will not be on the same side for the rest of the novels, or that, like you said, there is another dragon hidden somewhere..... :agree: I never meant to suggest that the three heads of the dragon will be the only three people to ever ride a dragon in the series. I think there will be others--certainly I suspect (f)Aegon will be one. I just agree that these people will all die before the final battle (I suspect (f)Aegon will get eaten by Drogon during DoD 2.0) and in the end Dany's three dragons will be ridden by the three heads of the dragon--Jon, Dany and Tyrion. I have a hard time seeing room for additional dragons in the series, but maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 To be fair to those people--even though I disagree with them--they are not suggesting it changes the relationship between Tyrion and a dead guy--but rather the "literary" understanding of the relationship from the readers' point of view changes. Basically, they suggest that from the readers' point of view, Tywin was completely unjustified in his treatment of Tyrion and could not accept Tyrion as Tywin's true heir even though Tyrion really was the child who emulated Tywin the most--but if Tyrion really is not his son, then somehow his treatment is more justified and the literary irony of Tywin denying the birthright to his "true" son is ruined. I completely disagree, in part because, as you stated, Tywin is dead so I don't agree that Tywin's actions retroactively become more justified, but also because it introduces a host of new ironies (one of which you noted). Maybe I am not doing justice to their argument because I don't buy into it--but I don't think they were overlooking the fact that Tywin was dead. :agree: I never meant to suggest that the three heads of the dragon will be the only three people to ever ride a dragon in the series. I think there will be others--certainly I suspect (f)Aegon will be one. I just agree that these people will all die before the final battle (I suspect (f)Aegon will get eaten by Drogon during DoD 2.0) and in the end Dany's three dragons will be ridden by the three heads of the dragon--Jon, Dany and Tyrion. I have a hard time seeing room for additional dragons in the series, but maybe. I also think another drgaon is the less likely scenario, but who knows. And yeah I agree about fAegon, I have been thinking for a long time that he will be the first person in Westeros to be eaten by one of Dany's dragons. muahahahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I am not sure I buy that Aerys or anyone other than Tywin fathered any of Tywin's children. But it wouldn't ruin any of their stories for me if it were true. In the case of Tyrion, the ways in which he is Tywin's true son need not have anything to do with genetics. If Jaime and Cersei are genetically Tywin's children, they are certainly not his children in the way Genna means. Tywin was genetically Tytos' son, but Tywin did not inherit his Tywin-ness from his father. That is something that developed, perhaps largely in response to his father. Tyrion did not inherit the beauty Jaime and Cersei did (assuming they are Tywin's). The way(s) in which he is Tywin's true son is not something he inherited genetically, but something that developed throughout his life, perhaps largely in response to his father. Tywin seems to have wanted, from his youth, to be the opposite of a continuation of his father. I think Tyrion, at least mentally, wanted to be like his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I am not sure I buy that Aerys or anyone other than Tywin fathered any of Tywin's children. But it wouldn't ruin any of their stories for me if it were true. In the case of Tyrion, the ways in which he is Tywin's true son need not have anything to do with genetics. If Jaime and Cersei are genetically Tywin's children, they are certainly not his children in the way Genna means. Tywin was genetically Tytos' son, but Tywin did not inherit his Tywin-ness from his father. That is something that developed, perhaps largely in response to his father. Tyrion did not inherit the beauty Jaime and Cersei did (assuming they are Tywin's). The way(s) in which he is Tywin's true son is not something he inherited genetically, but something that developed throughout his life, perhaps largely in response to his father. Tywin seems to have wanted, from his youth, to be the opposite of a continuation of his father. I think Tyrion, at least mentally, wanted to be like his father.I can't imagine Aerys woulda treated him any better. Probably woulda burned the little demon monkey. Keeping in mind this is a fantasy and all of these characters are figments of the George's imagination, if you accept the norms of ASOIAF, and if you accept that Tywin still held hope of having Jaime succeed him, you can see that Tywin and Kevan, at least from their perspectives, respected Tyrion and gave him a chance for their understanding of honor, at least as much honor as little demon monkey could get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I assume it was these things a) Targaryens want power to be kept in the familyb Aerys wanted Tywin's wife and Tywin didn't like that. Aerys was probably jealous against Tywin for it.c) Aerys was jealous of Tywin being seen more kingly and respected more for being more competent.d) Tywin is a domineering, prideful dick who we haven't really seen get along with being number two and bellow any king. He probably understood that Cersei killed Robert, and really a person like that he can't accept being number two and Aerys understood it. Tywin getting his vile daughter as queen would probably lead to usurpation of power and Targaryens being pushed aside. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get along or disagreements happened that Aerys and Rhaegar would be the ones to suffer or accidentally die. Tywin was already seen as more kingly and even without our knowledge, paranoia, and pride aside there would be reasons to be distrustful of Tywin for Aerys.e) Aerys even then before duskendale probably wasn't 100% sane, was very prideful as well and power makes people paranoid. Really the odd thing would be for a king to get along with Tywin. Sooner or later I see a king and Tywin coming into conflict over the later's ambitions and need to be in control and doing relatively well at that. Through time the reality of Tywin trying to get his family into the throne, Tywin being admired more than Aerys, and all the above issues became more relevant as Tywin did try to move up at this timeframe and failed. But maybe there are some specific events as well which we don't know. Maybe in regards to Aerys lusting after Joanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kundry Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I am convinced that A+J=T and I think that it will be confirmed in The World of Ice & fire Or, at least, that we will be able to find out there has been the chance for it (with the specification of the timing and occasions Aerys and Joanna met each other) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 I assume it was these things a) Targaryens want power to be kept in the family b Aerys wanted Tywin's wife and Tywin didn't like that. Aerys was probably jealous against Tywin for it. c) Aerys was jealous of Tywin being seen more kingly and respected more for being more competent. d) Tywin is a domineering, prideful dick who we haven't really seen get along with being number two and bellow any king. He probably understood that Cersei killed Robert, and really a person like that he can't accept being number two and Aerys understood it. Tywin getting his vile daughter as queen would probably lead to usurpation of power and Targaryens being pushed aside. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get along or disagreements happened that Aerys and Rhaegar would be the ones to suffer or accidentally die. Tywin was already seen as more kingly and even without our knowledge, paranoia, and pride aside there would be reasons to be distrustful of Tywin for Aerys. e) Aerys even then before duskendale probably wasn't 100% sane, was very prideful as well and power makes people paranoid. Really the odd thing would be for a king to get along with Tywin. Sooner or later I see a king and Tywin coming into conflict over the later's ambitions and need to be in control and doing relatively well at that. Through time the reality of Tywin trying to get his family into the throne, Tywin being admired more than Aerys, and all the above issues became more relevant as Tywin did try to move up at this timeframe and failed. But maybe there are some specific events as well which we don't know. Maybe in regards to Aerys lusting after Joanna. Actually I completely agree with you, That is exactly how Aerys felt, and then he slept with Tywin's wife and brought him back down to earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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