Please Put More About Maekar's Family in the Book

[History of Westeros]

If Egg did have multiple daughters, I would like to see one of them actually married into House Whent. That would be fascinating to me...

That would be interesting indeed, House Whent likely would've just taken over Harrenhal, and if Maekar had been killed by the last Lord Lothston, then it would make a lot of sense for the Throne to make a marriage to keep Harrenhal loyal. It is a huge castle only 2 weeks from King's Landing, after all. The Lothstons had apparently come close to joining at least one of the Blackfyre rebellions.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

If Egg did have multiple daughters, I would like to see one of them actually married into House Whent. That would be fascinating to me...

Hey maidenandwarrior,

I love seeing any new theories, and the one you brought up may make sense. Why? Well we know that the Tourney at Harrenhal was at Harrenhal, and it was there that Aerys left the Red Keep for the first time in years since Duskandale. Could that be because Lord Whent was his blood, and therefore could be trusted? Also Oswell was one of the most loyal of the Kingsguard, but why? And if House Whent had Targ blood, that may mean that the Starks children got a "double-dose" of Targ blood, one part from Ned through his mother's line or even his father's line, and one part through Catelyn's mother's family. And at that, Robb therefore was more of a threat than he realized to the IT. He could have been king of all Westeros then couldn't he? But what if Littlefinger knows? Could he want to make Sansa and her one day husband the king and queen of all Westeros, not just the Vale?

[maidenandwarrior]

Hey maidenandwarrior,

I love seeing any new theories, and the one you brought up may make sense. Why? Well we know that the Tourney at Harrenhal was at Harrenhal, and it was there that Aerys left the Red Keep for the first time in years since Duskandale. Could that be because Lord Whent was his blood, and therefore could be trusted? Also Oswell was one of the most loyal of the Kingsguard, but why? And if House Whent had Targ blood, that may mean that the Starks children got a "double-dose" of Targ blood, one part from Ned through his mother's line or even his father's line, and one part through Catelyn's mother's family. And at that, Robb therefore was more of a threat than he realized to the IT. He could have been king of all Westeros then couldn't he? But what if Littlefinger knows? Could he want to make Sansa and her one day husband the king and queen of all Westeros, not just the Vale?

Yep, I agree. I have a lot of feelings about this, and ideas. I think that Maekar's daughters Rhae and Daella (and who they married!) are going to be important, so I would be very curious if Egg had more daughters than just Rhaelle. I have started thinking that the whole story really comes down to the Targaryen line. The reason the ASOIAF and the War of the Roses parallel has never worked for me is because most of the characters share no blood with other characters, like the Starks and Lannisters, for example. But if all these characters do share blood through the female lines, well, it makes the story clear.

BTW, if Sansa did get Targ blood from House Whent and from a distant ancestor in the Stark line...this would feed right into my crackpot idea that Sansa will get a dragon.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

Yep, I agree. I have a lot of feelings about this, and ideas. I think that Maekar's daughters Rhae and Daella (and who they married!) are going to be important, so I would be very curious if Egg had more daughters than just Rhaelle. I have started thinking that the whole story really comes down to the Targaryen line. The reason the ASOIAF and the War of the Roses parallel has never worked for me is because most of the characters share no blood with other characters, like the Starks and Lannisters, for example. But if all these characters do share blood through the female lines, well, it makes the story clear.

BTW, if Sansa did get Targ blood from House Whent and from a distant ancestor in the Stark line...this would feed right into my crackpot idea that Sansa will get a dragon.

Yep maidenandwarrior I think that you are correct, that's why I don't understand why some people on forums are so reluctant in accepting the revelations of Targ bloodlines. In real life, the Plantagenet bloodlines of England extended from the king to minor lords, so why can't the Targs do the same? We already have proof that the Plumms, a minor family from the Westerlands have Targ ancestry, so why can't other minor families and major ones at that? Also why couldn't Sansa get a dragon like you said? If she has as much Targ blood as Brown Ben Plumm, one of the dragons can go to her most definitely. I like the idea of her with Viserion, the same way Silverwing was with Queen Alysanne. A white dragon for a queen of snow, the North? Maybe? Who's to say? On a side note I believe that the Lannisters have Sheira Seastar in their family tree, accounting for Tyrion's mismatched eyes.

[Lord Varys]

We can reasonably deduce that the second Dance of the Dragons is going to be a war between two Targaryen pretenders (Aegon VI Targaryen/Aegon I (?) Blackfyre, Daenerys I Targaryen) and one male pretender of a Targaryen cadet branch (Stannis I Baratheon).

The Baratheon appendix of ADwD officially confirmed that the Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne comes from Princess Rhaelle Targaryen. That House Baratheon was also founded by a bastard brother of Aegon I Targaryen we know since AGoT. That's why we can easily imagine any surviving Baratheon pretenders (Stannis, Shireen) as combatants during the second Dance.

The same would be true, of course, if Jon Snow would be revealed to be Rhaegar's son and make a claim (although I can't see how), or if Tyrion would be revealed to be Aerys' bastard son and be legitimized as Prince Tyrion Targaryen by Queen Daenerys I Targaryen (although Daenerys would have to choose her words carefully in such a decree - if she did legitimize Tyrion without reservations then his claim would actually be better than her own...).

The brides of Egg, Duncan, Jaehaerys, and the mystery prince are indeed not as interesting claim-wise as are the husbands of Princesses Dhae and Rhaelle, Daeron's lackwit daughter, or the fate of any of Egg's other daughters. All children and grandchildren or theirs would have claims to the Iron Throne. Whereas the houses from which the Targaryen princes chose their brides would have no claims.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

We can reasonably deduce that the second Dance of the Dragons is going to be a war between two Targaryen pretenders (Aegon VI Targaryen/Aegon I (?) Blackfyre, Daenerys I Targaryen) and one male pretender of a Targaryen cadet branch (Stannis I Baratheon).

The Baratheon appendix of ADwD officially confirmed that the Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne comes from Princess Rhaelle Targaryen. That House Baratheon was also founded by a bastard brother of Aegon I Targaryen we know since AGoT. That's why we can easily imagine any surviving Baratheon pretenders (Stannis, Shireen) as combatants during the second Dance.

The same would be true, of course, if Jon Snow would be revealed to be Rhaegar's son and make a claim (although I can't see how), or if Tyrion would be revealed to be Aerys' bastard son and be legitimized as Prince Tyrion Targaryen by Queen Daenerys I Targaryen (although Daenerys would have to choose her words carefully is such a decree - if she did legitimize Tyrion without reservations than his claim would actually be better than her own...).

The brides of Egg, Duncan, Jaehaerys, and the mystery prince are indeed not as interesting claim-wise as are the husbands of Princesses Dhae and Rhaelle, Daeron's lackwit daughter, or the fate of any of Egg's other daughters. All children and grandchildren or theirs would have claims to the Iron Throne. Whereas the houses from which the Targaryen princes chose their brides would have no claims.

You are right Lord Varys, in the fact that only female branches and the main house Targaryen, have a true, important claim on the IT. Some people it seemed for whatever reason, liked to forget that Robert's grandmother was Egg's first born daughter or likely second born, either way. The point is that it seems to me, not judging anybody, that those who say "Robert won the throne with his war hammer," are pretty ignorant of house history in Westeros and for that matter are maybe somewhat ignorant of how royal claims work to begin with? Why do I say this, well pretty much because I have little choice in the matter, because if I said that those people weren't ignorant on such issues, I'd be lying. Afterall in real world history the House of Hanover became the royal family in Britain, because they descended from James I's only daughter. If King George I had just marched,and sailed, over to London and said his claim was by his"conquest," do you think that the English lords would have accepted him? Nope, because that is not solely how claims work, so to be eligible to be a king, you must have an ancestor who at one time at least, was a member of the original royal family. In George's case his grandmother was King James I's daughter, so after the Stuarts he was one of the most eligible suitors for England's crown.

But with English history aside, let's talk Westeros. After the fall of House Targaryen following the Rebellion of the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons, Dany and Viserys were taken across the narrow sea. So with Aerys' remaining children aside, who could have been king? This is a very important question. We know the Plumms had Targ ancestry from Baelor the Blessed's sister, we know that any surving Blackfyres through a female branch could have a very good claim as well, and finally we know about the Targ blood of the Baratheons and Martells. But wait! Why is it that only these particular families are mentioned for having Targ ancestry? Could it be, as the rest of us have concluded on this thread for the most part, that we haven't been given "the full story," because I certainly believe so. I believe that likely all the major families have Targ ancestry, after all after all the years of Targ kings and queens, how could they not? It's certainly good that we are discussing the topic though. Because in the end, families matter when it comes to crowns and kingdoms.

[TGR]

It was mentioned in the middle of the topic so I think I wont take too off...

Ran, you said that it will have a lot of nice stuff about Egg's family (wifes and etc) but what about Daemon Blackfyre family? Will we find out who was his wife (or the mother of his kids)? A chance to find who exacly were the other children that make "the seven kids" quote?

Also, I know that even if its not true you guys are not gonna show if the Blackfyre female line still alive (mess up all the theories and debates about Aegon/fAegon) but what about the Blackfyres until Maelys? There is no reason to think that he is not a Blackfyre (or there is? oO) but I am really curious to find out if the House Blackfyre, in the exile, kept the tradition of marrying brothers and sisters to keep the blood "pure" and all that stuff.

I am probably the only fan that is more curious about Maelys character than to find about hidden Targs hahahaha,

Would be nice to know if he had the Targ traits, if he is the grandson or futher descendent of Daemon, if the marriage betweens Blackfyres is the reason why he was deformed and all that stuff

Thank you and sorry for the bad english, I am from Brasil =)

[Lord Varys]

I'd be surprised if there were any good claimants with dragon blood left besides House Baratheon. At least among the Westerosi nobility. To press your claim you have to have a certain political weight, so any Plumm claimant - for instance - would have had a hard time to press his claim. The same might be true for any surviving children/grandchildren of Prince Duncan and Jenny. The fact that Duncan married a commoner apparently either forced his father to disinherit him, or forced him to forfeit his claim. The opposition of the court and the nobility may have been to strong to accept such a king (this can easily be compared to the abdication of Edward VIII). On the other hand, it may also be possible that Duncan never wanted to be king, and always intended to choose the dragonflies instead of the dragon. But we don't know that yet.

Anyway, if the members of a great house is as closely related to House Targaryen (perhaps through an older or younger daughter of Egg) then we most certainly may have heard about that by now. Such a house could easily have made a bid for the Iron Throne upon Robert's or Tywin's death, especially if they believed that Cersei's children are no Baratheons (and thus also no Targaryens). If the principal supporters of Kings Joffrey and Tommen (i.e. the Lannisters or Tyrells) were closely related to the Targaryens (i.e. nearly as closely, as closely, or even ore closely than House Baratheon) this would have been mentioned as well. It could have enabled both Tywin, Cersei, or Mace to claim the Iron Throne for himself rather than to back a 'Baratheon' pretender.

It's still not impossible that there are hidden half-dragons among the lesser nobility, and if they are, they most likely did all they could to not draw attentions to themselves. It could have resulted in their exile or eradication, especially during Robert's reign. I'd not be surprised if some great lords of the Reach - the Rowans, Hightowers, or Redwynes - had have a Targaryen marrying into their family in the recent past. They may have been the reason why the Reach stuck to Aerys until the very end.

Even more interesting is who is the heir of Shireen/Myrcella? Was Steffon Baratheon an only child, or did he have sister who married into another house and had any children? If so, there would be other Baratheon-Targaryens out there. If not, then the next Baratheon heir would be a descendant of the siblings of Robert's paternal grandfather. But despite the fact that they would have claims to Storm's End due to their Baratheon heritage, they would have technically no claims to the Iron Throne because Robert's claim came from his paternal grandmother. No idea if anyone would care about these questions if they ever come up, but the very fact that there seems to be no distant cousin with either Stannis nor Tommen/Myrcella strongly suggests that the Baratheon succession is not as easily solved as, say, the Arryn succession.

Imagine if Robert's grandfather had five or six younger sisters and all of them had children of their own. Then half the noble houses of Westeros may have claims to Storm's End...

On the Blackfyres:

We do know that Daemon Blackfyre had seven sons - of whom we know the twins (Aegon & Aemon), Daemon II, and Haegon by name. That leaves three as of yet unknown sons, and daughters as well. My guess is that there have to be at least a few elder daughters, so Daemon II or Haegon may actually have elder sisters. Perhaps a daughter was even his eldest child. We don't know yet. Since they figure into the line of succession only at the very end, it makes no matter if they are elder than their brothers.

We also don't yet know if Maelys the Monstrous is a third or fourth generation Blackfyre (i.e. a grandson or great-grandson to Daemon I). His youngest son may be technically possible, but then he would have been rather old when Barristan killed, and somehow I doubt that that was the case.

We also don't know if Illyrio's claim that House Blackfyre is extinct only in the male line means that the Blackfyre line was continued through a daughter or sister of Maelys, or if this merely means that there is still Blackfyre blood to be found somewhere in Tyrosh where one or two of Daemon's daughters may have been married into the noble families there to secure some support for one or two of Bittersteel's invasion attempts.

Daemon's twins are already dead, and I very much doubt that Daemon II is going to father any legitimate children - he is a prisoner and he is gay. That leaves Haegon and his three younger brothers to continue the Blackfyre line, and some of them might not live long enough to breed, especially if they are the youngest children, and Bittersteel invades in their name long before they are grown-ups. So my guess is that only one or two sons of Daemon I may actually have children of their own, and Maelys is either a son or grandson of one of them.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

Well certainly good points made about the Tyrells and Lannisters Varys. But the Martells still have a pretty good claim I would suggest, especially since Daeron the Good's sister only lived about a hundred years before the main story. This likely means that Prince Doran is an eighth Targaryen or so, maybe even a fourth if his mother was a very younger daughter of Daeron's younger sister?

[Lord Varys]

The Martells are still in the game, of course. But since they are not pressing any claims to the Iron Throne either suggests that they are aware that pretty much no one would support their claim, at least not as long as other Targaryens and Baratheons are out there (very likely), or that they do know that there are still other claimants with better claims out there than they themselves.

We don't yet know how many generations are between Prince Maron and Princess Daenerys. Considering that Maron may have already been Prince of Dorne when Myriah was married to Daeron the Good, it's not unlikely to assume that she was merely his second or third wife and he already an old man at that time. Nor do we know who was older, Myriah or Maron. It would be interesting to know if Myriah Martell was supposed to rule Dorne but ended up as Queen of Westeros. Back then this was not necessarily considered to be a career jump...

But anyway, there are plenty of Targaryen women unaccounted for after Daenerys: Other daughters of Daeron the Good besides Aelinor, any daughters or granddaughters of Elaena Targaryen, Dhae and Rhaella, other daughters of Prince Maekar, Daeron's lackwit daughter, any female offspring of Prince Rhaegel (he had twin sons in TMK, but he could have fathered some daughters before he died), Egg's daughters, and then we don't know anything about any children of Prince Duncan and the mystery prince. Jaehaerys had only Aerys and Rhaella, but no one ever said that Duncan and the mystery prince did not have any children, nor do we have to assume that all of them died at Summerhall.

That means there could be plenty of families with more Targaryen blood than the Martells. But if all the Targaryens and Baratheons were to die in the series, it's not impossible that Trystane Martell may end up on the Iron Throne.

[TGR]

Lord Varys: I could not remember exacly the dates but acording to the wiki, Daemon died with possibly 26 years old, in 196. The Rebellion started in 194. Making a stupid and quick count, if he had his first twins with 14 and had a child every year until the beginning of the rebellion then he might had 12 kids, 7 sons and 5 daughters (Daemon "The Rabbit" Blackfyre). Actually 7 sons is already TOO much. 4 sons and 3 daughters would be more reasonable (still a lot of kids)

But anyway, for the supporters of the "fAegon is a Blackfyre" theory, those numbers are awesome. If we think that there were another 3 Blackfyre Rebellions and if we assume that in each time Aegor (or whoever) brought a kid with him (that end up in prison like Daemon II) then we still have 1 son PLUS 5 daughters to keep the line going.

About Maelys being a 4th generation Blackfyre, I know its possible but seems to me that he is more like Daemon's grandson. Considering that the exile is rough to anybody, its very hard to believe that the kids would have their own child before the 18's. Plus we keep not considering the fact that the son or daughter of Daemon could have conceived Maelys later in their lifes, like in the end of 20's (maybe beginning of 30's). For men could be even later.

In that way, Maelys could be in his 40's when he tried to claim the IT around 259. IMO a man that "old" has more chance to be respected and followed in his plans to invade Westeros then a young dude in his 20's. But Daemon itself is prove that age sometimes its not an issue (he was supported in his cause with "only" 24).

Its totally crackpot but I would not be suprised if Egg married one of the youngest daughters of the black dragon. Maybe one of the girls came together in a rebellion and got lock up like Daemon II. Being a Targaryen girl, she could be really pretty and that would turn Egg's atention when he came back to KL.

By the way, thinking about my own question (I kind feel stupid now), probably there will be nothing (or only stuff with dots covering or whatever that unable us to read) about the Blackfyres. Pretty much because their rebellions "will happen" in the time of the Dunk and Egg Tales and I am sure GRRM does not want to give spoilers about his next 6-7 books.

Lets hope TWOIF shows at least who Daemon married (I think that wont be a spoiler, right?). By the way, the targaryen tree will be awesome to see since there is a LOT of holes, specially in terms of the wifes. Cant wait to have this book in my hands...

[KingMaekarWasHere]

Lord Varys: I could not remember exacly the dates but acording to the wiki, Daemon died with possibly 26 years old, in 196. The Rebellion started in 194. Making a stupid and quick count, if he had his first twins with 14 and had a child every year until the beginning of the rebellion then he might had 12 kids, 7 sons and 5 daughters (Daemon "The Rabbit" Blackfyre). Actually 7 sons is already TOO much. 4 sons and 3 daughters would be more reasonable (still a lot of kids)

But anyway, for the supporters of the "fAegon is a Blackfyre" theory, those numbers are awesome. If we think that there were another 3 Blackfyre Rebellions and if we assume that in each time Aegor (or whoever) brought a kid with him (that end up in prison like Daemon II) then we still have 1 son PLUS 5 daughters to keep the line going.

About Maelys being a 4th generation Blackfyre, I know its possible but seems to me that he is more like Daemon's grandson. Considering that the exile is rough to anybody, its very hard to believe that the kids would have their own child before the 18's. Plus we keep not considering the fact that the son or daughter of Daemon could have conceived Maelys later in their lifes, like in the end of 20's (maybe beginning of 30's). For men could be even later.

In that way, Maelys could be in his 40's when he tried to claim the IT around 259. IMO a man that "old" has more chance to be respected and followed in his plans to invade Westeros then a young dude in his 20's. But Daemon itself is prove that age sometimes its not an issue (he was supported in his cause with "only" 24).

Its totally crackpot but I would not be suprised if Egg married one of the youngest daughters of the black dragon. Maybe one of the girls came together in a rebellion and got lock up like Daemon II. Being a Targaryen girl, she could be really pretty and that would turn Egg's atention when he came back to KL.

By the way, thinking about my own question (I kind feel stupid now), probably there will be nothing (or only stuff with dots covering or whatever that unable us to read) about the Blackfyres. Pretty much because their rebellions "will happen" in the time of the Dunk and Egg Tales and I am sure GRRM does not want to give spoilers about his next 6-7 books.

Lets hope TWOIF shows at least who Daemon married (I think that wont be a spoiler, right?). By the way, the targaryen tree will be awesome to see since there is a LOT of holes, specially in terms of the wifes. Cant wait to have this book in my hands...

Hey granemannrosa,

I don't think your theory about Egg is crackpot. Why? Because we don't know who he married, besides Bloodraven took Daemon II as a hostage after the mystery knight, so Daemon could have had a daughter before he died. Thus Egg could have married her, but your theory could fit into the equation because, most if not all of Eggs kids likely had the silver hair, which you don't get unless the Targ blood is at least pretty prevalent in your tree. So if my mother was half Blackfyre and my father was at least part Targaryen, it's very likely that I would have silver hair, or that one of my brothers, sisters would. And since Jaeherys II and since both Aerys and Rhaella had it, it's a good idea that Egg's wife may have been a black dragon, or that his son Jaeherys married a black dragon, maybe that's why Maelys started his own grand rebellion in the nine-penny war, cause one of his cousins married a Targ? That would be a good explanation quite possibly, since we know of the backstabbing and war between the two families, so maybe what led to the Nine penny war was a kind of Romeo and Juliet scenario? Besides Maelys didn't have a brother, so his sisters or cousin could have been the last of his heirs, so therefore he would not have wanted any of them to marry a male line Targaryen most likely.

Btw, as to who the first Daemon took as his wife, a lot of people think that she was a Targ princess from Baelor I's sister's line, considering one of his sisters, I think Elaena, had seven children. But we know Elaena had children with a Plumm, so it could be that a Plumm woman married Daemon. Or it could also be that one of Elaena's other husbands was a female line Targ, so that her daughter with him was definitely likely to have silver hair, thus her children with Daemon would not only be Targ through every branch of their family, but would also all likely have silver hair and purple eyes. So I'm sticking with that idea for now I think, that Daemon took one of Elaena's daughters as a wife. Such a theory was suggested by another person on the forums I think, couldn't tell you who. ( such a tradition could echo Blackfyre cousin marriage as a tradition, opposed to the Targ brother and sister marriages.)

Btw, its good to have another fan of family trees on the thread. The Targ tree is quite possibly one of the most important trees in Westeros, but I think that the Arryn tree, the Tyrell tree, and of course the Blackfyre tree would all be good to see too, especially since I have a feeling that the Tyrells have a Targ ancestor, and at this point I think we can assume that the Arryns do too, because of Robert's comment that Jon Arryn could have been king. It could be that one of Egg's sisters married an Arryn? That theory has been brought up a bunch, especially when one considers why LF wants to marry Harry the Heir to Sansa. I mean if both Harry and Sansa have a Targ ancestor, their children would have a very, very important claim on the IT, and you better believe that if LF knows about it, he will keep it with him and possibly keep it close. After all I think he has plans for the whole kingdom and not just the Vale.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On a side note, I have a feeling that the Lannisters and Tullys may be the only two major families without any Targ ancestors in their trees, because if the Lannisters do, it is likely Sheira Seastar and or the Bloodraven, due to Tyrion's mismatching eyes. And the Tullys were the only Paramount family without kingly ancestors, so I'm thinking that the Tullys may have been given a short end of a stick in the marriage department. But the Arryns, Starks, Tyrells, Greyjoys, ect., they were all families with kings in their trees, so it may be likely that those royal pedigrees inspired marriage between their fams and Targs. Also on the Lannisters, their stance on the Targs would suggest that if their family had any Targ ancestors, the Targs in question were likely illegitimate, whether Blackfyre or not, I could not say. Some people believe that Jaime's visit in Feast to Raventree Hall, I believe the Blackwoods castle's name, echos that the Lannisters are descendants of Bloodraven. And if Bloodraven had a daughter with Seastar, she may have married a Lannister.

[TGR]

Actually, if we really think about it, the whole "family tree" thing can be useless to the storyline that its going on by now. I mean, if Daenerys ends up destroying all her enemies with the dragons, nobody would care that whoever Blackfyre had a better claim than her hahahahaha

Off course that some Lords can use those type of claims to get the throne, but they would have to go to war anyways.

However, getting to know thoses trees, IMO, give a lot of depth into the story. I am really curious to find what GRRM, Linda and Ran prepared in terms of the trees.The whole "set up marriages" are so political that would be nice to imagine what the big houses were doing to keep themselves in power.

I know that nobody wants to know about EVERY SINGLE lord and lady that existed in Westeros, but for curiosity would be fun to find out that besides the Durrendon, Targaryen and Estermont, the Baratheons also married into the Swann and Selmy houses or something like that.

[RumHam]

You are right Lord Varys, in the fact that only female branches and the main house Targaryen, have a true, important claim on the IT. Some people it seemed for whatever reason, liked to forget that Robert's grandmother was Egg's first born daughter or likely second born, either way. The point is that it seems to me, not judging anybody, that those who say "Robert won the throne with his war hammer," are pretty ignorant of house history in Westeros and for that matter are maybe somewhat ignorant of how royal claims work to begin with? Why do I say this, well pretty much because I have little choice in the matter, because if I said that those people weren't ignorant on such issues, I'd be lying. Afterall in real world history the House of Hanover became the royal family in Britain, because they descended from James I's only daughter. If King George I had just marched,and sailed, over to London and said his claim was by his"conquest," do you think that the English lords would have accepted him? Nope, because that is not solely how claims work, so to be eligible to be a king, you must have an ancestor who at one time at least, was a member of the original royal family. In George's case his grandmother was King James I's daughter, so after the Stuarts he was one of the most eligible suitors for England's crown.

But with English history aside, let's talk Westeros. After the fall of House Targaryen following the Rebellion of the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons, Dany and Viserys were taken across the narrow sea. So with Aerys' remaining children aside, who could have been king? This is a very important question. We know the Plumms had Targ ancestry from Baelor the Blessed's sister, we know that any surving Blackfyres through a female branch could have a very good claim as well, and finally we know about the Targ blood of the Baratheons and Martells. But wait! Why is it that only these particular families are mentioned for having Targ ancestry? Could it be, as the rest of us have concluded on this thread for the most part, that we haven't been given "the full story," because I certainly believe so. I believe that likely all the major families have Targ ancestry, after all after all the years of Targ kings and queens, how could they not? It's certainly good that we are discussing the topic though. Because in the end, families matter when it comes to crowns and kingdoms.

I dunno, I think I disagree. In the end strength rules, the first Aegon proved that. Also there's this SSM

[KingMaekarWasHere]

I dunno, I think I disagree. In the end strength rules, the first Aegon proved that. Also there's this SSM

Hey RumHam,

Yes I can see it that way for sure, afterall Aegon as far as I know didn't have a claim in Westeros, though it is possible that one of his grandparents could have been a Westerosi, non-Valaryian. But that aside, I think for the most part fate is determined by families in the Westeros setting. Unless a rebellion happens, or an exceptional, unusual person conquered the kingdom, or a great wave of sickness spreads, then of course exceptions can be made to titles and lands, but even so some part, bloodline of former ruling families will likely remain. For example all the Darry men are gone in the Riverlands, and all the Blackfyre male line men are dead, but this does not mean that the female branches will remain without influence. Infact female line branches are some of the most important in history in general.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Info about Maekar's reign will certainly be interesting.

My pet theory for Baelor's wife is a daugther of Elaena Targaryen (the youngest princess in the Maidenvault). We know that she married thrice and had seven children. And she was freed at Baelor's the Blessed's death (171), so she could had had a daughter of the right age to marry Baelor (born 169) and give birth to Valarr (born 189).

She also had black platinum white hair with a golden streak, which would tie nicely with her potential grandson Valarr's brown hair with a golden streak.

Besides Baelor, some of Elaena's daughters may have married Rhaegal or Maekar too.

We know that Egg married ouside the Targaryen family for love. So perhaps the easiest would be to assume that Daeron the Drunk and Aerion married their two sisters Daella and Rhae.

The most commonly accepted theory is that he died fighting the Lothstons, the lords of Harrenhal that were substituted by the Whents. Ser Illifer the Peniless says in AFFC that House Lothston was wiped during the times of his great grand grandfather, which could fit the year of Maekar's death.

I suspected once that Baelor was married to another Martell princess, a daughter of Maron and Daenerys. But I'm not sure if that makes sense age-wise.

Elaena had golden hair with a silver streak in it (or the other way around). She did not have black hair. Valarr's golden streak could indicated a close kinship to Elaena, but it could also been a sort of resurgence of the Targaryen features. He looking somewhat more like his paternal grandfather.

Maekar most certainly was married to a Valyrian/Targaryen girl. Either a Velaryon, a daughter of Elaena, or a sister we don't know anything about yet. Despite Daeron all his children seem to have very prominent Targaryen features.

Rhaegel could have also been married to a daughter of Elaena, although it will be quite interesting to find out who she was married to after this Plumm thing. Marrying her to Ossifer Plumm has to be a nasty joke of Aegon the Unworthy. Whoever that man was, he most certainly was far beneath a Targaryen princess. Later on, she married once for passion, and once again on the command of a king. I'm inclined to believe that Daeron let her marry for passion after the Plumm thing, and commanded her to marry again after said husband died. I'm inclined to believe that her marriage for love was finally Alyn Velaryon, but that does not have to be the case. And it would be really great if it turned out that she did serve as Master of Coin on Aerys' council.

Maekar's wife may turn out to be an interesting person. It seems that Maekar did never remarry after her early death, so there have been some love involved there.

Egg and Jaehaerys' brides have to be Valyrian and/or at least fair-haired. Jaehaerys himself, and Aerys and Rhaella have very strong Targaryen features. I suspect a Blackfyre may be either Egg's wife or Jaehaerys'.

Not Maekar: Daeron comes to the throne at 184, so that's the earliest possible date for Daenerys and Maron's marriage and the earliest birthdate of a potential daughter of theirs*. Baelor's Valarr was born at 189 and Maekar's Daeron at 190, when this potential daughter would be 5 or 6 years old.

But Rhaegel is perfectly possible. One of Maekar's sons could work too.

Ok, I've read a lot of info on the first page of this thread where years are concerned where mistakes have been made, and since I knew the answers, I thought I just quote a few of these and clear up all the confusion for af far as I can.

Baelor, Daenerys and Daemon were all born in 170 AL (Daenerys either late 170 AL or early 171 AL). First of all, Daemon had 7 sons and at least 2 daughters when he died in 196 AL. His eldest sons were twins of twelve years old. Daenerys and Maron married in 197 AL, after the conclusion of the Blackfyre Rebellion, so their eldest child was born in 198 AL or later.

Valarr was born around 187-193 AL. Any children of Daenerys had with Maron would have been too young for Baelor to marry, but Valarr is indeed an option. Though someone said he could also have married a daughter of Elaena, which would possibly make most sense if you look at Valarr's colouring.

Elaena had seven children, and was married three times, twice on behest of the king, and once for passion. She had two bastard children with Alyn Velaryon, Jon and Jeyne Waters. Since Jon and Jeyne Waters were never legitimized (Jon Waters' descendants are still living in KL, now living under the last name Longwaters), I assume that the marriage for passion occured as the latest, and Alyn Velaryon was already dead. It would also make sense since the older a princess gets, the less honor it is to marry her. If she had become too old to marry anyone as some sort of price, she would have been able to marry for love.

The Hairy Bear, you said Valarr was born in 189 AL. Do you have any source? Because I've tried to calculate the birth years of all known Targaryens, but for Valarr I could only give a perhaps.

Valarr's wife had two stillborn children, so Valarr died without issue. Matarys wasn't married already, for as far as I can tell, and thus didn't have any children.

And what Maekar is concerned, I am also hoping more about him and his family will be in the World Book, but I doubt that it will be much, since we will still get the Dunk and Egg stories, and GRRM wouldn't want to spoiler those too much.

Edit: Daeron and Aerion were about ten years older than their sisters. So I don't know if they were really marriage material for them. No sister is mentioned when it is mentioned Aemon served at Daeron's keep, so he might not have married one of his sisters. And Aerion was sent away to Lys for a few years. So he might not have been around when either Daella or Rhae reached the right age to get married. And with Targaryens dying during the Spring, marrying Targaryens and producing more dragons were sort of a priority I can assume. So it's possible Maekar didn't wait for Aerion to get back. Also, Aerion only had 1 infant son when he died in 232 AL. One child in a marriage of several years isn't impossible, but it would be strange, because Aerion doesn't seem like the type to me who would give his wife an easy time until she got pregnant.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

how do you know that Maron and Daenerys married after the first Blackfyre Rebellion was concluded? I never knew about that one before? That would make little sense since marrying Daenerys to Maron was one of the things that estranged Daeron II and Daemon in the first place.

Maekar most likely had at least two daughters, Rhae and Daella, and they apparently were both younger than Egg. Maekar had no daughter near the age of Aerion because he was pissed that he did not have sister close enough to his age to marry her (which is why he threatened to unman Egg).

Considering that both Daeron and Aerion are still unwed in THK it's not impossible that Aerion and/or Daeron end up marrying either Rhae or Daella after Egg refuses to marry one of his sisters. It seems to me that Egg is the first of Maekar's sons to have any children. He has a family when his father dies. Daeron has only a lackwit daughter - possibly not all that old - and Aerion an infant son.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys,

how do you know that Maron and Daenerys married after the first Blackfyre Rebellion was concluded? I never knew about that one before? That would make little sense since marrying Daenerys to Maron was one of the things that estranged Daeron II and Daemon in the first place.

Maekar most likely had at least two daughters, Rhae and Daella, and they apparently were both younger than Egg. Maekar had no daughter near the age of Aerion because he was pissed that he did not have sister close enough to his age to marry her (which is why he threatened to unman Egg).

Considering that both Daeron and Aerion are still unwed in THK it's not impossible that Aerion and/or Daeron end up marrying either Rhae or Daella after Egg refuses to marry one of his sisters. It seems to me that Egg is the first of Maekar's sons to have any children. He has a family when his father dies. Daeron has only a lackwit daughter - possibly not all that old - and Aerion an infant son.

The year of Maron and Daenery's marriage is mentioned on the awoiaf-page of both Daenerys Targaryen, and on the page of House Martell. (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenerys,_daughter_of_Aegon_IV & http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Martell). Also, Barristan states that Daemon Blackfyre rose in rebellion when denied Daenerys. No one ever states that it was the marriage. It could have simply been the bethrotal that set Daemon off. Though 26 or 27 is a very late age to get married, it is an age where you can actually consider yourself to be truly in love, right?

Anyway, the year I got off of awoiaf.westeros.org

The rest of your post, I simply agree with :)

Also, Egg was supposed to marry Daella. So she wasn't promised to anyone else, because she was supposed to marry Egg. However, when Egg refused to marry her, she suddenly became available. Rhae could have been married off by then. So perhaps Aerion, if he married a sister at all, married Daella?

Edit: also, in a SSM, GRRM said that Daeron II and Daemon had clashed about stuff before, so their relationship wasn't all that great either. Daenerys' bethrotal wasn't the thing that estranged them, it was the last straw, I believe

Edit II: The timeline page on awoiaf.westeros.org also states that Dorne formally joined the Seven Kingdoms in 197 AL when Daenerys and Maron Martell wed. It says so again on the page titled Years after Aegon's Landing.

[Veltigar]

On the Blackfyres:

We do know that Daemon Blackfyre had seven sons - of whom we know the twins (Aegon & Aemon), Daemon II, and Haegon by name. That leaves three as of yet unknown sons, and daughters as well. My guess is that there have to be at least a few elder daughters, so Daemon II or Haegon may actually have elder sisters. Perhaps a daughter was even his eldest child. We don't know yet. Since they figure into the line of succession only at the very end, it makes no matter if they are elder than their brothers.

I do not think that the bolded part is very likely. After all GRRM seems to have made Daemon the paragon of male virtues. So, I think that storywise it makes more sense for his firstborn to be a boy, because that's yet another sign of Daemon "qualities".