Please Put More About Maekar's Family in the Book

[The hairy bear]

Baelor, Daenerys and Daemon were all born in 170 AL (Daenerys either late 170 AL or early 171 AL.

I'd place Baelor's birth at 169. he is said to be 39 when he dies, and the events of THK are usually agreed to happen in 208 (208-30=169). I agree with the other dates, although it's hard (and fruitless) to argue about one year more or less because we'll never have enough information to settle the exact "name day" precisely.

The Hairy Bear, you said Valarr was born in 189 AL. Do you have any source? Because I've tried to calculate the birth years of all known Targaryens, but for Valarr I could only give a perhaps.

Valarr's wife had two stillborn children, so Valarr died without issue.

That was my best approximation just to sustain my theory, sorry for not being clearer about that. But it can't be far off. You say he was born between 187-193, and I would even reduce that interval. If he had been born in 193, he would have been 15 at the Ashford tourney and 16 when he died. Given that he had two stillborn children, his father fitted in his armor, and he was considered a good contender at the tourney without anyone mentioning him as a boy wonder (alla Jaime or Loras), I'd put his birth between 187 and 191, with 189 being the middle ground.

The year of Maron and Daenery's marriage is mentioned on the awoiaf-page of both Daenerys Targaryen, and on the page of House Martell. (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenerys,_daughter_of_Aegon_IV & http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Martell).

The wiki is unreliable by itself. That date is unreferenced, so it's just something that one fan wrote. It can be just as right or wrong as any date that we suggest here.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'd place Baelor's birth at 169. he is said to be 39 when he dies, and the events of THK are usually agreed to happen in 208 (208-30=169). I agree with the other dates, although it's hard (and fruitless) to argue about one year more or less because we'll never have enough information to settle the exact "name day" precisely.

I always thought that the Hedge Knight takes place in 209 AL, several months before the Spring Sickness began? I could be wrong, of course. But 208 or 209, it doesn't matter that much.

That was my best approximation just to sustain my theory, sorry for not being clearer about that. But it can't be far off. You say he was born between 187-193, and I would even reduce that interval. If he had been born in 193, he would have been 15 at the Ashford tourney and 16 when he died. Given that he had two stillborn children, his father fitted in his armor, and he was considered a good contender at the tourney without anyone mentioning him as a boy wonder (alla Jaime or Loras), I'd put his birth between 187 and 191, with 189 being the middle ground.

I completely agree. I was just being careful, since we don't have any other clues.

The wiki is unreliable by itself. That date is unreferenced, so it's just something that one fan wrote. It can be just as right or wrong as any date that we suggest here.

I thought so too, but then I saw it on four different pages. And it seems to me that, the more pages on that wiki some information is on, the bigger the chances it's correct. Of course it bothered me that there was no reference to a passage from the books (fairly certain their marriage date was not mentioned there) or from a SSM, or from an other interview given by GRRM. I'll keep looking for it, of course.

But it also seemed to be logical to me. If Daenerys had married several years before the Blackfyre Rebellion, than why had it taken Daemon so long to revolt, if she was his personal main reason? Bethrotals usually are about a year (for people that already have the right age) it seems to me, but I am using Joffrey&Margaery and Cersei&Robert as an example here, so perhaps other houses in Westeros, both great and small, do it differently.

Anyway, thanks for your opinion on Valarr's age! I've been trying to puzzle out when all the Targaryens must have been born, and Valarr was one of the few I didn't have a decent estimation on. :)

[Lord Varys]

There is no official date for the Maron-Daenerys-marriage I'm aware of, and the interpretation some people have about Daenerys's betrothal/marriage to Maron being the last straw for Daemon's rebellion is exactly that - an interpretation based on one GRRM quote which indicated that there had been other clashes between Daeron and Daemon before Daenerys's marriage.

But this doesn't necessarily mean that those clashes must have happened during Daeron's reign, it could refer to quarrels between the Prince of Dragonstone and the Blackfyre-wielding bastard. It does seem strange to assume that Daenerys was married to Maron only after the Blackfyre rebellion:

1. We do know that Daenerys was born considerably later than Daeron the Good, but this does not necessarily indicate that she was born during the reign of the Unworthy. Daeron was born during the reign of Aegon III, and Daemon Blackfyre in the last year of the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

2. Daenerys and Daemon apparently fell in love. For this to happen it would make more sense to assume that they were of about the same age and grew up together at KL (Daemon as son of Princess Daena, Daenerys as daughter of Aegon IV). My guess is that Daenerys is either of the same age as Daemon, or 1-2 years /younger/older. If Daenerys was born very late during the reign of the Unworthy, we would have to ask how or why a 14-16 year old Daemon could have fallen in love with 4-8 year old or so. The Unworthy ruled only for twelve years.

3. Maron Martell is apparently already the Prince of Dorne when Daeron the Good is married to Myriah Martell when Baelor the Blessed ascends the Iron Throne. This makes it very unlikely that Maron only married Daenerys after the Blackfyre rebellion (and then his son from Daenerys succeeded him as Prince of Dorne rather than the children from an earlier marriage.

4. Daemon Blackfyre himself has to marry early on during the reign of Daeron to Good to father all his seven sons and the unknown numbers of daughters so that he can die on the Redgrass Field in due time. And it makes little sense to assume that Daenerys would have been content to be the second wife of Daemon, nor do I see I very good chance for her to fall in love with a married man.

5. Finally Eustace Osgrey's words in TSS indicate that Daenerys was given to the Prince of Dorne (i.e. married to him) before the Rebellion broke out. That should confirm it, I think. Especially since Dorne seems to be a part of the Realm throughout the reign of Daeron the Good, not just after the Blackfyre Rebellion. But Dorne joined the Realm not when Daeron was married to Myriah but when Maron married Daenerys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There is no official date for the Maron-Daenerys-marriage I'm aware of, and the interpretation some people have about Daenerys's betrothal/marriage to Maron being the last straw for Daemon's rebellion is exactly that - an interpretation based on one GRRM quote which indicated that there had been other clashes between Daeron and Daemon before Daenerys's marriage.

But this doesn't necessarily mean that those clashes must have happened during Daeron's reign, it could refer to quarrels between the Prince of Dragonstone and the Blackfyre-wielding bastard. It does seem strange to assume that Daenerys was married to Maron only after the Blackfyre rebellion:

1. We do know that Daenerys was born considerably later than Daeron the Good, but this does not necessarily indicate that she was born during the reign of the Unworthy. Daeron was born during the reign of Aegon III, and Daemon Blackfyre in the last year of the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

2. Daenerys and Daemon apparently fell in love. For this to happen it would make more sense to assume that they were of about the same age and grew up together at KL (Daemon as son of Princess Daena, Daenerys as daughter of Aegon IV). My guess is that Daenerys is either of the same age as Daemon, or 1-2 years /younger/older. If Daenerys was born very late during the reign of the Unworthy, we would have to ask how or why a 14-16 year old Daemon could have fallen in love with 4-8 year old or so. The Unworthy ruled only for twelve years.

3. Maron Martell is apparently already the Prince of Dorne when Daeron the Good is married to Myriah Martell when Baelor the Blessed ascends the Iron Throne. This makes it very unlikely that Maron only married Daenerys after the Blackfyre rebellion (and then his son from Daenerys succeeded him as Prince of Dorne rather than the children from an earlier marriage.

4. Daemon Blackfyre himself has to marry early on during the reign of Daeron to Good to father all his seven sons and the unknown numbers of daughters so that he can die on the Redgrass Field in due time. And it makes little sense to assume that Daenerys would have been content to be the second wife of Daemon, nor do I see I very good chance for her to fall in love with a married man.

5. Finally Eustace Osgrey's words in TSS indicate that Daenerys was given to the Prince of Dorne (i.e. married to him) before the Rebellion broke out. That should confirm it, I think. Especially since Dorne seems to be a part of the Realm throughout the reign of Daeron the Good, not just after the Blackfyre Rebellion. But Dorne joined the Realm not when Daeron was married to Myriah but when Maron married Daenerys.

1+2. About Daenerys' birth, it is stated in an SSM that Daenerys was born long after Daeron, at a time that Daeron already had a son of his own, Baelor. He doesn't say "that Daeron already had sons of his own". So from this I conclude that Daenerys must have been born between 169 AL (when Baelor was born) and 171 AL (the time when Aerys I was born). To take the middle ground here, Daenerys was born around 170 AL, the same year Daemon Blackfyre was born, making them the same age, and making it more likely for them to have grown up together and thus fall in love.

3. Maron doesn't necessarily need to be Myriah's brother. Myriah was the sister of the ruling prince of Dorne during Baelor's reign, but Maron was the ruling prince of Dorne during Daeron's reign. Maron could have been the son of the Prince that ruled Dorne during Baelor's reign, making Myriah his cousin. This would pull his age a bit more towards Daenerys' age, and could explain why he didn't have any children from a previous marriage, since it's Daenerys' son that eventually rules Dorne.

4. I'm not sure which argument you are trying to make with this statement. Daemon was born in 170 AL and died at the age of 26 in 196 AL at the Redgrass Field. Daemon had seven sons, and at least two daughters, since Bloodraven in the Mystery Knight mentions sisters of Daemon II. So Daemon had at least nine children, with one set of twins, making it eight pregnancies. Boys are fertile from age 13 onwards, but the full fertile potential isn't reached until the age of 14-16 years. Seeing as how Daemon died at the age of 26, with a set of twins of 12 years old, his first children were born in 184, the year Aegon IV died and Daeron got the throne. So Daemon had married approximately a year before, in 183 AL. I'm assuming he was married, since his sons are his legit heirs. Of course, he also could have legitimized his sons once he had named himself king, but this seems less likely. Daemon II mentions how his elder brothers teased him, which suggests the children grew up together, which would make more sense if they all had the same mother. Or do you see Daemon caring for a bunch of toddlers? The earliest Daemon had gotten himself a pair of children, was in 184 AL, when he was 14 years old. It's possible he didn't fall in love with Daenerys until a few years later (when they were seventeen or something like that), and that Daemon had vowed to her that he would set his current wife aside if Daenerys was allowed to marry him.

5. Ok, that makes sense. Ser Eustace's words do suggest Daenerys and Maron had been married before the Rebellion. In that case, I don't know when they got married. It does make more sense age-wise, because otherwise Daenerys would have been married when she was 26 or 27 years old, which would be a bit old, even for Dornish standards.

[Anath]

5. Ok, that makes sense. Ser Eustace's words do suggest Daenerys and Maron had been married before the Rebellion. In that case, I don't know when they got married. It does make more sense age-wise, because otherwise Daenerys would have been married when she was 26 or 27 years old, which would be a bit old, even for Dornish standards.

But it doesn't make sense reason-wise. I don't like Daemon and I think he was an entitled brat who wanted everyone to forget that he was not legitimate but legitimized - in other words, to pretend that he wasn't what he was - but at least I could find a shred of reason in his Daenerys reasoning if he hoped to marry her. If he waved his insult of being refused her as a banner a number of years after the fact, he was more selfish than even I thought him.

I mean, we know he and his followers - handlers, in my opinions - were all opportunists who cared only about their personal gain and were ready to sacrifice anyone for that exalted purpose. But the Daenerys thing gave them a little more ground to stand on if they hoped to wed her to Daemon.

Anyway, I can see it going the middle way - that he was already married when they fell in love since at his father's death he was either a father himself or at least expecting his first, supposedly legitimate children (and in this case, he should blame Aegon and not Daeron for refusing him Daenerys) and he was 13 or 14, depending on the month of his twins' birth. The only way to make Daemon marrying in Daeron's rule would be for the Unworthy to die very early in the beginning on the year, Daeron and Daemon having their big quarrel over Daenerys, Daeron finding a match for Daemon, convincing him to wed his own choice, and the bride getting pregnant either in the wedding night or immediately after. That's the only way for all these events to fit in the frame of 184. Mind you, we don't even know when in 184 Aegon died.

But for Daenerys to be wed at 20 odd, it's really weird. Unless, of course, Maron was considerably younger than her, so they had to wait for him to grow up. Given the fact that he had the Water Gardens built for her to celebrate their wedding - the way Doran says it, Maron sounds like a man and not a boy - this in not all that likely.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But it doesn't make sense reason-wise. I don't like Daemon and I think he was an entitled brat who wanted everyone to forget that he was not legitimate but legitimized - in other words, to pretend that he wasn't what he was - but at least I could find a shred of reason in his Daenerys reasoning if he hoped to marry her. If he waved his insult of being refused her as a banner a number of years after the fact, he was more selfish than even I thought him.

I mean, we know he and his followers - handlers, in my opinions - were all opportunists who cared only about their personal gain and were ready to sacrifice anyone for that exalted purpose. But the Daenerys thing gave them a little more ground to stand on if they hoped to wed her to Daemon.

Anyway, I can see it going the middle way - that he was already married when they fell in love since at his father's death he was either a father himself or at least expecting his first, supposedly legitimate children (and in this case, he should blame Aegon and not Daeron for refusing him Daenerys) and he was 13 or 14, depending on the month of his twins' birth. But for Daenerys to be wed at 20 odd, it's really weird. Unless, of course, Maron was considerably younger than her, so they had to wait for him to grow up. Given the fact that he had the Water Gardens built for her to celebrate their wedding - the way Doran says it, Maron sounds like a man and not a boy - this in not all that likely.

It isn't stated whether Maron had the Water Gardens build before their wedding or after, it just is stated the Water Gardens were build to celebrate their wedding.

A rebellion isn't build up over a few days, or weeks. And Daemon wasn't the mastermind behind his rebellion. If Daenerys and Maron married, let's say in 194 AL for example's sake, Daenerys would have been around 23/24 years old. This is the same age Arianne is right now in the story, and no Dornish lord is questioning her unmarriaged state at that age, so for the Dornish this might not be so weird. Especially not if Daenerys had been promised to Maron several years before.

So Daenerys marries and Daemon is furious about it. Bittersteel and Quentyn Ball are trying to influence him, and Daenerys' marriage to the Dornish Maron would not have made Daemon more open to the Dornish influence at court.

The Redgrass Field was the decisive battle, but we don't know whether or not there had been fighting before. There probably was fighting before the Redgrass. In the mean time, Daemon was gathering lords around him. Some might have needed some persuasion, and this would have taken time.

So the first Blackfyre rebellion could have lasted for several years, including the build up. Daenerys marrying Maron would have infuriated Daemon, but it might had taken some more persuasion of Bittersteel and Quentyn Ball to convince Daemon to actually rebell (this could have been from a few months to a year). Next, Daemon needs to gather strength, and perhaps avoid attention of Daeron to try and have the biggest chance of succeeding in their rebellion.

The fact that there could have been several years between Daenerys' marriage (Daemon's personal main reason to rebel) and the actual decisive battle (Redgrass in 196 AL) doesn't have to mean that Daemon did nothing for several years.

[Anath]

Makes sense. It is the interpretation that Daemon was refused Daenerys before he married his wife when he was 12 or 13 ( Lord Varys 4.) that I have a problem with. The facts are, his first children were born in the year of Aegon's death, so to me, the hypothesis that Aegon found Daemon a match he, Aegon, liked (but not Daenerys) fits better than all those things I stated in my post being crammed in a single year when we don't even know when Aegon died. Hell, it would look that Daeron made his refusal before he was crowned to allow time for everything to happen.

We don't know what Daemon promised Daenerys - that he'd set his wife aside, that she'd be his chief wife, whatever. She might have been so madly in love that she didn't mind sharing him if the perspective was not having him at all.

[RumHam]

This is the same age Arianne is right now in the story, and no Dornish lord is questioning her unmarriaged state at that age, so for the Dornish this might not be so weird. Especially not if Daenerys had been promised to Maron several years before.

Yeah, but didn't Doran attempt to marry her off to a bunch of old dudes in an effort to make her unmarriedness seem less suspicious? Also I think you said Bloodraven when you meant Bittersteel a little further down.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah, but didn't Doran attempt to marry her off to a bunch of old dudes in an effort to make her unmarriedness seem less suspicious? Also I think you said Bloodraven when you meant Bittersteel a little further down.

Thanks! That was a typo indeed!

Yes, Doran presented several candidates to Arianne to take the suspicion off of things, but I got the idea from that conversation that he had done so to make the lords from the other six Kingdoms less suspicious about the situation.

Any way, Maron is the dornishman here, and for men it isn't so weird to marry a little bit later on. Daenerys could have been kept on hand by Daeron II, since she was the biggest price he had to offer. Who knows how long the negotiations lasted about this marriage? That might also have taken a year.

Targaryens seem to be marrying their offspring off around the ages of 13/14 when the line is threatening to die out (like after the Dance), and around 16/17/18 when there is no such threat. If Daeron started looking for a candidate for Daenerys when she was about 17/18 years old, he could have negotiated with the Dornish, which included Dorne comming into the kingdoms, and which laws would be held to where and such. Daeron would not have married Daenerys off before all of that was taken care off. So this might have taken a little while several years or so. After that, a public bethrotal was made, the wedding was prepared for in several months time, and they married. Daemon got pissed, Bittersteel and Quentyn Ball influenced him heavily, and the Blackfyre Rebellion came to be, which could have lasted for a year or two easily, with the ending being the Redgrass Field.

Until the have the World of Ice and Fire, or another couple of Dunk & Egg stories, we will probably never know how it all went down for sure. But this is a possibility.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, you really should keep your speculations based on the books.

1. We do know that there was more fighting before the Battle on the Redgrass Field. Read the Dunk & Egg stories. The rebellion began when Daeron send the Kingsguard to imprison Daemon. They failed (partly due to Fireball's intervention). Then there was later some fighting in the West, where the Grey Lion was beaten and pinned into Casterly Rock. Lord Butterwell served as Daeron's Hand in the beginning of the war, and was later replaced by Lord Hayford when it became obvious that he was not treating the rebellion seriously (just as Aerys replaced Merryweather with Connington). We really can deduce some sort of skeleton chronology: Daemon, Bittersteel and Fireball escaping KL. They gathering their allies, and assembling armies, possibly in the West. A battle with Lord Lannister. Blank space. Eventually Daemon was on his march to KL, the Redgrass Field is located somewhere in the Crownlands near the capital. We can deduce this from Ser Eustace's words who is convinced that Daemon would have won the war had he pressed his advantage after defeating Gwayne Corbray. Then Maekar and Baelor would have come too late to save their father and KL.

2. It is confirmed that Daemon Blackfyre did not marry during the reign of his father, Aegon the Unworthy. It was either Daeron the Good who brokered his marriage, or Daemon himself chose a bride during the reign of his half-brother. Else this whole thing about Daemon wanting to marry Princess Daenerys - and Daeron denying this marriage - makes no sense at all. We cannot reasonably assume that a polygamous marriage was a real option under a king like Daeron II. More importantly, setting aside Daemon's original wife - the mother of all his children who is still alive as late as TMK - would also make those children bastards and/or unfit to inherit their father's name and titles. This does not strike me as something a role model guy like Daemon would do.

We also do know that Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre - Daemon's twin sons who died on the Redgrass Field at the age of twelve - must have been fathered in 184 - the year of Aegon the Unworthy's death - or else they could not have been twelve years old on the Redgrass Field.

We can easily assume Daemon's career into a pretender ran as follows:

1. Daemon the mysterious bastard son of Princess Daena is raised by her during the reigns of Viserys II and Aegon the Unworthy. Prince Daeron allowed the boy to be raised with his own sons (Fireball trained Daemon as well as Baelor Breakspear and his brothers). If Daeron was close to Daena - we don't know anything about their relationship - Daeron may have even acted as the boy's guardian. Princess Daenerys was also close by, and grew fond of her bastard cousin.

2. This started to change when Aegon the Unworthy recognized 12-year-old Daemon as his son and gave him Blackfyre. From that point on - until the death of his father two years later - Daemon was not only the bastard of a princess but the bastard of the king. The fact that he was a promising young squire and knight made him a favorite among the young men in KL, but he most certainly had no cadre of devoted allies two years later when his father died.

3. We have to keep in mind that Baelor Breakspear is about the same age as Daemon, and was a very gifted knight and warrior himself. He may have not been exactly as good as Daemon, but he was good enough, and he was the legitimate son and heir of the Prince of Dragonstone, whereas Daemon was just one of the many bastards of King Aegon at this time.

4. Aegon IV legitimized all his children on his deathbed. We only hear of some of them, the so-called Great Bastards, but there have to more of them (for instance, there has to be some Targaryen-Butterwell offspring as well). This made Daemon suddenly a legitimate son of King Aegon, and thus - and only thus - became the Blackfyre thing important and eventually threatening to the reign of King Daeron.

But it was also Daeron's generosity who made the Blackfyre Rebellion possible. He did not revoke/not recognize the will of his late father. Instead, he apparently raised his younger half-siblings, the children of his father's official mistresses (Aegor Rivers, Brynden Rivers, and Shiera Seastar) at his court. It would have been easily possible for Daeron to murder, exile, or sideline all his half-siblings. The last will of Aegon the Unworthy could have been ridiculed as the last utterance of the demented mind of the worst king Westeros ever had.

Instead, Daeron cared for his half-siblings, rewarded them for their loyalty with high offices (Bloodraven served on his Small Council), and allowed young Daemon to live at court. He found even a suitable bride for him, perhaps even a Targaryen bride (some assume it may have been one of Princess Elaena's daughters), or he did allow him to marry.

5. In the early years of his reign Daeron II brought Dorne into the Realm by marrying his younger sister to Prince Maron. That caused an estrangement between Daemon and Daeron, which eventually motivated the man Daemon Blackfyre to go along with the plans of the lords, knights, and half-brothers who used him for their own ends. The marriage between Daenerys and Maron brought many Dornishmen to the capital, which apparently sidelined the influence/became a hindrance to the ambitions of the established court elite.

We don't yet know anything about the details of the pact that brought Dorne into the Realm. But it's very likely that Daeron and Myriah long planned this whole thing Maron in secret behind the scenes (Aegon IV intended to conquer Dorne with wooden dragons!). Daeron built Summerhall as seat for himself and Myriah after Baelor married him to her. If they spend much time there during the reign of the Unworthy it's easily imaginable that they communicated with/visited/were visited by the Martells down in Dorne. Therefore it is easily imaginable that Daeron could announce the Daenerys-Maron-match immediately after he ascended the Iron Throne, and it is just as likely that he may have been married Daemon off to somebody else to get him out of the way as soon as possible.

6. If Dorne was not part of the Realm during the Blackfyre, I can't see any Dornishmen fighting against the Blackfyre loyalists on the Redgrass Field to keep another Targaryen pretender on the Iron Throne. Accepting Myriah as bride for Prince Daemon was a price of the peace negotiation King Baelor had to accept after the failed Conquest of Dorne. This did not make the Martells good friends of House Targaryen! It was Daeron - and most likely Myriah as well - who took the opportunity and brokered a real peace.

[Anath]

Where is it confirmed that Daemon married through Daeron's reign? I don't want speculations and hypothesis, as reasonable as they might look. The whole thing is so messed up that all sorts of conclusions can be drawn. Where is it stated that Daemon married through Daeron's reign? I'd like to see it. It would make things clearer.

The polygamous thing made no sense for Daeron but for Daemon, as entitled as he was, it might have made sense. We already saw that he was very much against accepting reality - that although legitimized, he was not of equal footing with real princes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Where is it confirmed that Daemon married through Daeron's reign? I don't want speculations and hypothesis, as reasonable as they might look. The whole thing is so messed up that all sorts of conclusions can be drawn. Where is it stated that Daemon married through Daeron's reign? I'd like to see it. It would make things clearer.

The polygamous thing made no sense for Daeron but for Daemon, as entitled as he was, it might have made sense. We already saw that he was very much against accepting reality - that although legitimized, he was not of equal footing with real prices.

It isn't stated that Daemon married through Daeron's reign. But it is stated that his eldest sons were born the same year Daeron got the throne. And since these sons are considered Daemons heirs, they must be his sons by marriage, and thus he must have married at least 9 months prior, during the final months of Aegon's reign, if not before.

Edit: Lord Varys, you say that Daemon married during Daeron's reign. Could you please provide a link to the source (SSM, interview etc) ?

[Anath]

Rhaenys_Targaryen, that is my reasoning, exactly, but Lord Varys states Daemon married into Daeron's reign and that it was confirmed. Since it doesn't correspond to my conclusions, I asked to see where it was confirmed.

Besides, it makes no sense to me that Daemon would wait for his father who showed him such favour to die for him to ask for Daenerys' hand almost immediately from his half-brother whose intentions about Daemon and the other bastards could only be unknown. If he was so in love at the time, he would have asked Aegon, not wait for him to die.

[Lord Varys]

There is no such direct quote I'm aware of, but the fact that Daemon wanted to marry Daenerys during Daeron's reign is proof enough to me that he was not married with the mother of his children when he wanted to marry her.

Daeron II was head of House Targaryen when he ascended the Iron Throne. He would have been the one to decide who has to marry who, especially where his own sister is concerned (but technically also where his half-siblings, children, and cousins are concerned).

Daemon may have considered himself worthy of a polygamous marriage. But I don't think Daeron would have allowed such a thing. He was way to close to the Citadel and the Faith. And it would have been a striking humiliation of the sister of the king to make her/consider her as a potential second wife of her bastard-born brother.

In fact, the only polygamous Targaryen we know of are Aegon I and his sisters and Maegor the Cruel. Aegon was still very rooted in Valyrian customs (they had polygamous marriages once in awhile), and Maegor desperately tried to father an heir.

We have no hint that polygamy was practiced afterwards, not even during the dragon-era. Not even during the Dance! So it's very unlikely that Daemon had the audacity to demand such an exception for himself. Especially since I think that such a demand would have been way too much to all his later allies.

The theory of the late Daenerys-Maron-marriage demands that Daemon either only wants Daenerys as his second wife (huge insult to her, and the king), or that he sets aside his first wife (who may have been a Targaryen herself) to marry Daenerys. Both would have destroyed Daemon's standing as 'coolest guy on earth', to say the least. His seven sons (and as of yet unknown number of daughters) would have lost all their claims. This would have been political suicide if you ask me. If Daemon really demanded this, and if Daeron refused it (and thus saved him) whoever followed Daemon has to be a complete moron. 'The Warrior Himself'? Daemon would have been 'The Whoremonger Himself'! Daemon the Unworthy, his father's son!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys_Targaryen, that is my reasoning, exactly, but Lord Varys states Daemon married into Daeron's reign and that it was confirmed. Since it doesn't correspond to my conclusions, I asked to see where it was confirmed.

Besides, it makes no sense to me that Daemon would wait for his father who showed him such favour to die for him to ask for Daenerys' hand almost immediately from his half-brother whose intentions about Daemon and the other bastards could only be unknown. If he was so in love at the time, he would have asked Aegon, not wait for him to die.

Daemon was only 14 years old when Aegon died, a bit too young to be in love. I believe they fell in love later in life, in the first few years of Daeron's reign. Daenerys is, after all, about the same age (give or take a year).

There is no such direct quote I'm aware of, but the fact that Daemon wanted to marry Daenerys during Daeron's reign is proof enough to me that he was not married with the mother of his children when he wanted to marry her.

Daeron II was head of House Targaryen when he ascended the Iron Throne. He would have been the one to decide who has to marry who, especially where his own sister is concerned (but technically also where his half-siblings, children, and cousins are concerned).

Daemon may have considered himself worthy of a polygamous marriage. But I don't think Daeron would have allowed such a thing. He was way to close to the Citadel and the Faith. And it would have been a striking humiliation of the sister of the king to make her/consider her as a potential second wife of her bastard-born brother.

In fact, the only polygamous Targaryen we know of are Aegon I and his sisters and Maegor the Cruel. Aegon was still very rooted in Valyrian customs (they had polygamous marriages once in awhile), and Maegor desperately tried to father an heir.

We have no hint that polygamy was practiced afterwards, not even during the dragon-era. Not even during the Dance! So it's very unlikely that Daemon had the audacity to demand such an exception for himself. Especially since I think that such a demand would have been way too much to all his later allies.

The theory of the late Daenerys-Maron-marriage demands that Daemon either only wants Daenerys as his second wife (huge insult to her, and the king), or that he sets aside his first wife (who may have been a Targaryen herself) to marry Daenerys. Both would have destroyed Daemon's standing as 'coolest guy on earth', to say the least. His seven sons (and as of yet unknown number of daughters) would have lost all their claims. This would have been political suicide if you ask me. If Daemon really demanded this, and if Daeron refused it (and thus saved him) whoever followed Daemon has to be a complete moron. 'The Warrior Himself'? Daemon would have been 'The Whoremonger Himself'! Daemon the Unworthy, his father's son!

Setting aside your wife to take another doesn't mean the children you have by her become illegit. If wife #1 dies, the children stay legit, so if you set aside wife #1, the children you have by her stay legit as well. Queen Naerys herself asked to be released from her vows after giving birth to Daeron II. Do you really believe that she would have asked for it if it had meant that her son lost his claim to the throne? I find that hard to believe.

Quentyn Ball was promised a spot on the KG when an opening would occur, by Aegon IV. He forced his wife to become a silent sister, so he would not have a wife and was free to take the KG vow.

So the fact that Daemon had been married when falling in love with Daenerys and wanting to marry her, doesn't mean he wasn't already married. It just shows that if he was married at the time, he didn't care very much for his wife. Also, we have absolutely no indication that Daemons wife was a Targaryen princess (a daughter of Elaena).

Daemon could have passed the "annuling marriage #1 and marrying Daenerys" thing off as stating that this was true love, and their marriage would undo all the injustice done to them (not having been allowed to marry in the first place). It's also possible that Daemon was married several times, and that the moment he wanted to marry Daenerys was in between two marriages. I'm only suggesting this since 8 pregnancies really take their toll on a female body, and in the past (even as close by as a hundred years ago), women could easily loose their minds over having been pregnant so many times. It completely destroys your body, especially if you're pregnant almost every year. To add up that in Westerosi times pregnancies and birth didn't always end well (like Minisa Whent, Hoster Tully's wife), Daemons first wife also could have simply died birthing a child, making him free for marriage to Daenerys without having to dishonour himself in any way possible.

[Lord Varys]

From the textual basis I got the impression that 'setting aside your wife' is the King' prerogative. That said, such a thing would be very problematic, very risky, and very difficult enterprise. We only hear about this thing from Renly of all people, during his scheme to replace Cersei with Margaery as Robert's wife and queen.

We do know that marriages which have been made in the eyes of the Seven can be dissolved/annulled by the High Septon if the marriage in question has not been consummated (or if one of the parties has been tricked or forced into the marriage). I do not know of a single case where the husband has thrown his wife out of the house, to remarry afterwards. I do not doubt that these things may have happened in ancient Westerosi times, especially when men took wives who had not standing or family of their own to defend their rights, but most certainly not among the educated nobility, let alone the royal family.

Divorce in the modern (or ancient Roman) understanding is thus not possible in Westeros.

Dissolving a marriage by allowing one partner to leave the marriage and enter an order of the Faith is also possible, but that is 'not setting aside one's wife' but the wife acting on her own accord (although the husband may have to give his leave for this as well - I'm not sure whether this was only the case in Naerys's case because Aegon was her king as well as her husband). If this is done because the wife feels a deep religious calling in her heart nobody will hold that fact against her son. But if this happens because the husband is in love with another - most likely younger - wife, the stain on the woman may very well extend to the son. In any case such a thing should greatly disturb the relationship between father and son/children, as this whole thing would a mistreatment of the mother.

It can be done forcibly as well - Fireball did indeed force his wife to join the Silent Sisters. But I'm not sure if that's legally possible, especially not if your wife is the daughter of a very powerful noble house. What would have happened if Renly had gotten Robert to dissolving his marriage to Cersei by forcing her to join the Silent Sisters? The Lannisters would have risen in rebellion against the Iron Throne.

Thus my conclusion is that 'setting aside one's wife' would be a thing on the same legal level as legitimizing bastard children (especially one's own). It's a royal prerogative which kings use only seldom.

If we think Renly's scheme through, Robert would have had to disinherit his children by Cersei to give the Tyrells (and Renly) what they wanted: Margaery as Queen, with Mace Tyrell's grandchildren following Robert on the Iron Throne.

I very much doubt we can compare such a scenario with the wife dying, and the husband remarrying (although I'm quite aware of the fact that Viserys's second marriage led to the Dance of the Dragons). The wife in question would still be alive, and could complain and enforce the legality of her marriage, especially if she had borne her husband any children. I'm quite sure Daemon's seven sons would have been very pissed if their mother had been replaced by Princess Daenerys. In the long run, Daenerys - and her children by Daemon - may have tried to disinherit Daemon's children by his first wife to ensure that they would get the Iron Throne, not the children of the discarded/dumped wife.

Thus I really can't imagine Daemon trying to enforce such a thing. At least not without tarnishing his reputation to such a degree that the later Blackfyre Rebellion would never have happened.

[The hairy bear]

1. We do know that Daenerys was born considerably later than Daeron the Good, but this does not necessarily indicate that she was born during the reign of the Unworthy. Daeron was born during the reign of Aegon III, and Daemon Blackfyre in the last year of the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

The exact text of the SSM is ""Daeron II was much older than his sister Daenerys. He was already married and father to a son of his own (Baelor Breakspear) before she was born." I think that it's the fact that George says "a son" instead of just sons leads many (including myself) to believe that Daenerys was born after Baelor but before Aerys. That would put her birth between 169/170 and would make her the same age as Daemon, and as you say, it would allow the "love story" to make some more sense.

It is confirmed that Daemon Blackfyre did not marry during the reign of his father, Aegon the Unworthy. It was either Daeron the Good who brokered his marriage, or Daemon himself chose a bride during the reign of his half-brother. Else this whole thing about Daemon wanting to marry Princess Daenerys - and Daeron denying this marriage - makes no sense at all. We cannot reasonably assume that a polygamous marriage was a real option under a king like Daeron II.

(...)

We also do know that Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre - Daemon's twin sons who died on the Redgrass Field at the age of twelve - must have been fathered in 184 - the year of Aegon the Unworthy's death - or else they could not have been twelve years old on the Redgrass Field.

(...)

4. Daemon Blackfyre himself has to marry early on during the reign of Daeron to Good to father all his seven sons and the unknown numbers of daughters so that he can die on the Redgrass Field in due time. And it makes little sense to assume that Daenerys would have been content to be the second wife of Daemon, nor do I see I very good chance for her to fall in love with a married man.

While I also favour mostly the thesis "everything happened in 184" [meaning that in this year Aegon IV died (Jannuary), Daenerys was given or promised to the Dornish by Daeron (February), Daemon found another woman to marry (March) and his twins were born (December)] , the truth is that the timeline is a little strectched.

I would consider another option as a viable possibility too, with Daenerys being the Westerosi counterpart of the Roman Honoria. Perhaps Daemon and Daenerys were just friends during their stay at KL. Perhaps Daemon married and had his twins while Aegon IV was still alive. And then, years after, when Daeron decides to marry Daenerys to the Prince of Dorne, she refuses. Probably she thinks the Dornish are a sub-race and doesn't want to leave KL. Since his brother Daeron doesn't listen to her, she turns to her other brother Daemon: as a Targaryen, she wants to marry a Targaryen, not inferior men. And since Daeron's line is turning against her, she openly declares to prefer being Daemon's second wife than some Dornish's first. I could see a young woman doing that as a desperate attempt to stay at home (better the second wife of a friendly known that being sold off as cattle to a foreign land), and it's the kind of thing that singers could expand on later. Also, it's consistent with the Prince of Dorne building the Water Gardens afterwards to appease her.

ETA: I'm thinking of a third option which I don't think is contradicted by the text: the twins are born in 184, and Daemon II at 189. A notable difference. Perhaps Daemon had a first wife that died giving birth to twins the year of Aegon IV's death. In the next years he and Daenerys would fall in love in KL, but Daeron sends her to Dorne. And then, Daemon marries again to the mother of the second Daemon, Haegon and the rest.

[Lord Varys]

This quote comes from an SSM I asked GRRM. I really never thought it would ever be used against my flawless reasoning ;-).

The context was that I wanted to know why Daeron II and not Aegon the Unworthy was credited with bringing Dorne into the Realm. Surely it must have been Aegon IV, said I, who married his son to Myriah, nor Daeron himself.

GRRM then explained that Daeron and Daenerys were years, even decades apart, and that the actual joining of Dorne and the Iron Throne was sealed with Daenerys's marriage to Maron - during the reign of Daeron II - not by the marriage of Daeron II - which occurred at the very beginning or the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

Back then I had no idea that these two were this many years apart. I think that explains much better why GRRM mentioned Baelor Breakspear in that quote.

As to the years between Aegon/Aemon and Daemon II. They seem to have been raised as brothers. I believe they shared the same mother. But it's not impossible that there was a daughter born between the twins and Daemon II. Could be fun to meet an older Blackfyre girl pursuing the Blackfyre cause for their little brothers later on.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This quote comes from an SSM I asked GRRM. I really never thought it would ever be used against my flawless reasoning ;-).

The context was that I wanted to know why Daeron II and not Aegon the Unworthy was credited with bringing Dorne into the Realm. Surely it must have been Aegon IV, said I, who married his son to Myriah, nor Daeron himself.

GRRM then explained that Daeron and Daenerys were years, even decades apart, and that the actual joining of Dorne and the Iron Throne was sealed with Daenerys's marriage to Maron - during the reign of Daeron II - not by the marriage of Daeron II - which occurred at the very beginning or the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

Back then I had no idea that these two were this many years apart. I think that explains much better why GRRM mentioned Baelor Breakspear in that quote.

As to the years between Aegon/Aemon and Daemon II. They seem to have been raised as brothers. I believe they shared the same mother. But it's not impossible that there was a daughter born between the twins and Daemon II. Could be fun to meet an older Blackfyre girl pursuing the Blackfyre cause for their little brothers later on.

Yes, now we finally are all on the same page :).

I agree, that between Aegon/Aemon and Daemon II (there's a 5 year age difference here) there could have been born a daughter or two. And I also believe that they had the same mother, for the same reason you said. Who knows, female Blackfyre's might show up in later Dunk & Egg stories.

[Lord Varys]

The really tricky thing with this whole thing is that it is stated that the marriage between Daeron and Myriah brought Dorne into the Realm. The fact that it was the marriage between Daenerys and Maron is a retcon - or we could also say that the details grew with the telling.

The original trigger for this question was that I wanted to understand why GRRM himself considers Aegon the Unworthy the worst king Westeros ever had. With the assumption that he may have been the one who arranged the marriage between Daeron and Myriah such a thing sounded problematic to me.