Shouldn't everyone have the right to die?

[Robin Of House Hill]

A person has an absolute right to terminate his/her own life. It is, afer all, their life.

[sologdin]

sure, but what remedy? rights are only as strong as remedies for their infringement, after all.

[thecryptile]

A person has an absolute right to terminate his/her own life. It is, afer all, their life.

What about the mentally ill? Do you think that someone ruled mentally incompetent has this right? They can't write a check legally or get married. How can they give informed consent for euthanasia?

The fact is that extreme Right to Die advocates have assisted in the suicides of people who had no physical illness. Slippery slope and all that.

sure, but what remedy? rights are only as strong as remedies for their infringement, after all.

Is there such a thing as "wrongful life" case IRL?

[Aemon Stark]

OTOH, I bet legalizing [assisted suicide] would drastically lower the gun death rate in this country, as many would choose drugs over shooting themselves.

FWIW, I think mentally competent people with terminal illnesses should have the choice [to end life-saving medical care]. But I see the potential for abuse [of assisted suicide], and there are legitimate arguments against it.

Competent people have the right to refuse any treatment or intervention, regardless of whether they have a terminal disease. This is not euthanasia but simply patient autonomy. This is a status quo point because this is already legally guaranteed. Assisted suicide is not about choosing to withdraw life-sustaining treatment, but to provide the means for someone to terminate their own life where they are NOT at imminent risk of death or to actively terminate their life where they are unable to do so themselves. I would not participate in the later. I have participated several times in the former.

[thecryptile]

Ok, just so we've got our terminology straight-

Patient Autonomy=going off of a respirator

Assisted suicide=giving a patient a fatal drug overdose

Yeah, the first is legal now, and I don't have a problem with it. The second is where I start worrying. Calls to mind the Eugenics movement.

[TerraPrime]

Yeah, the first is legal now, and I don't have a problem with it. The second is where I start worrying. Calls to mind the Eugenics movement.

I understand your reservations. But eugenics is to assisted suicide as rape is to sex.

ETA:

solo: I'd presume that all cases of assisted suicide would take place in a controlled space, like a hospice room or one's own home. The probability of someone intervening as a good Samaritan seems extremely low. In fact, to preclude this, we should mandate that assisted suicides can only take place on private properties with the consent of the property owner.

[sologdin]

Is there such a thing as "wrongful life" case IRL?

the claims, to my knowledge, have mostly been refused. it has historically come about in right to terminate cases, where parents wanted or would have wanted to terminate, but were denied by medical provider, and then parents sued for medical treatment for the kid, who is typically severely disabled at birth.

[thecryptile]

I understand your reservations. But eugenics is to assisted suicide as rape is to sex.

I saw this a piece on Frontline where these extreme Right to Die advocates helped a bipolar woman suffocate herself with helium and a plastic bag. This is what has me worried about assisted suicide, the idea that mentally ill people, who are physically healthy, might be assisted in suicide.

the claims, to my knowledge, have mostly been refused.

Good, the concept of "wrongful life" seems wrong to me.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TP,

But a fundamental right to suicide would exist in all circumstances not just the controled environment of physician assisted suicide. That's why making suicide a fundamental civil right would be dangerous in the situations Sologdin outlined so well.

[Som Tin Wong]

Suicide is a human right imo. Yes, not many people say it should be illegal, but we do make it as hard as possible for people to kill themselves. And people are denied this right. Why deny a suffering person the right to die in peace and dignity and force them to end their lives in horrible ways, especially when there are doctors willing to provide this service. This is inhumane and selfish.

[TerraPrime]

I saw this a piece on Frontline where these extreme Right to Die advocates helped a bipolar woman suffocate herself with helium and a plastic bag. This is what has me worried about assisted suicide, the idea that mentally ill people, who are physically healthy, might be assisted in suicide.Good, the concept of "wrongful life" seems wrong to me.

Can't comment on the specific case since I don't know the details.

In general, I am skeptical of a mental health certification requirement for assisted suicides because people seem to have a tendency to classify anyone who wants to die as mentally unstable. In fact, it's one of the criteria we use to forcibly commit people to a mental institute.

[Som Tin Wong]

Mental illness is an illness like any other.

[Persicaria]

Is there such a thing as "wrongful life" case IRL?

the claims, to my knowledge, have mostly been refused. it has historically come about in right to terminate cases, where parents wanted or would have wanted to terminate, but were denied by medical provider, and then parents sued for medical treatment for the kid, who is typically severely disabled at birth.

Oh wow, can you force someone to give birth to a child when you know their quality of life will be horrendous. To continue to live they would need continued medical treatment and if the parents cannot pay for it, and knew they could not care for the child what recourse do they have then. That is not to say that doctors can't be wrong, and may be it will not be so bad (but normal is a long way off for such children). Still, there are cases where a child is born so physically limited that you have to wonder what can they get out of life (blind, deaf, and with spinal deformities where their bones can break). Is it ethical then to operate on such children to save their lives without being able to really improve their quality of life? Sorry, I'm going off on a very slippery tangent. It is especially slippery for me as I have two brothers with autism and do work with special needs children (and 99.9% I can say are beautiful and happy and relatively healthy children in their own ways. It is that .1% though that deeply troubles me).

Sorry I know my post was off-topic. As for assisted dying, I feel there should be something in place. Yes I realize the potential for abuse, but considering how much the human body can go through and remain "alive" there should be certain conditions where death can be an option (if I were in an accident that made me completely paralyzed unable to even twitch from then neck down I would seek death).

+++ There is a very bizarre case about the right to birth that actually involved a surrogate. The story is pretty surreal http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2288237/Woman-paid-22-000-surrogate-mother-refuses-parents-wishes-abortion-ultrasound-reveals-series-disabilities-flees-country-save-baby.html

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Maxi,

If we make suicide a fundamental right how do we avoid the pitfalls Sologdin and I point out for good samaritans or medicial personel violating this person's civil rights while attempting to save their life after a suicide attempt?

[thecryptile]

Can't comment on the specific case since I don't know the details.

Here's a link to an article about the piece.

We were even more surprised to find out about Final Exit Network, which helps non-terminally ill people as well as terminally ill people using a controversial method: death by helium, which requires a plastic hood.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/11/the-suicide-plan-frontline-explores-organized-world-of-assisted-suicide.html

[Aemon Stark]

Can't comment on the specific case since I don't know the details.

In general, I am skeptical of a mental health certification requirement for assisted suicides because people seem to have a tendency to classify anyone who wants to die as mentally unstable. In fact, it's one of the criteria we use to forcibly commit people to a mental institute.

I don't follow. Stating suicidal thoughts or even articulating a plan is not sufficient in itself to be certified, and usually someone can only be held for assessment for a few days.

Sorry I know my post was off-topic. As for assisted dying, I feel there should be something in place. Yes I realize the potential for abuse, but considering how much the human body can go through and remain "alive" there should be certain conditions where death can be an option (if I were in an accident that made me completely paralyzed unable to even twitch from then neck down I would seek death).

Then you should have an advanced directive that your family members are aware of stating that you would not want mechanical ventilation, artificial feeding, etc. on an indefinite basis.

[TerraPrime]

If we make suicide a fundamental right how do we avoid the pitfalls Sologdin and I point out for good samaritans or medicial personel violating this person's civil rights while attempting to save their life after a suicide attempt?

Wouldn't we adjudicate this in a court system where the defense argues that it's a reasonable assumption to make, based on the specific circumstances, that the person was in need of assistance and that the person rendering assistance at the time did not believe that it was a suicide attempt?

ETA:

I also think that we can make an argument about limiting suicide to private space. I have the fundamental right of free speech, but I cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. So we do know that fundamental rights can still be curtailed if we can find enough balancing factors. But then, yes, I do think people should stop being good Samaritans about apparent suicide attempts that they witness. It's the person's right to decide to die, and it's not our place to stop them.

Re: Aemon

I don't follow. Stating suicidal thoughts or even articulating a plan is not sufficient in itself to be certified, and usually someone can only be held for assessment for a few days.

Sorry for being unclear. I meant being committed to observation, not committed to prolonged treatment. That said, suicidal ideation is, far as I know, a diagnostic trait for several mental illnesses, right?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TP,

Then we have a conflict of laws problem. Medical personell have an affirmative duty to provide aid to people who are injured. This is regardless of the "why" behind the injury. Is putting an onus upon them to consider the "why" of an injury before they begin treatment really a good idea. They are trapped in a catch-22 where they literally may be damned if they do and damned if they don't if they happen to guess incorrectly. They already face serious malpractice issues without adding this twist.

ETA:

And even if the suicide is limited to a "private space" what happens if I come home and find my 18 year old son or daughter injured in such a "private space" and I take them for treatment. Should they be able to sue me and the people whi treated them for civil rights violations?

[Aemon Stark]

Re: Aemon

Sorry for being unclear. I meant being committed to observation, not committed to prolonged treatment. That said, suicidal ideation is, far as I know, a diagnostic trait for several mental illnesses, right?

It's one of the many possible criteria for a major depressive episode. Suicidal ideation isn't really a reason to certify someone in itself, and usually you attempt to determine risk, i.e. do they have actual intent or a clear plan. Many people don't have either, despite having passive thoughts of death. For those who attempt and live, usually they have an inpatient psych stay after any medical issues are stabilized, by which point they may no longer have any intent much less a plan. Suicidal ideation isn't a fixed quality, and the actual attempts are more often impulsive acts that may not even reflect actual intent.

Re: good Samaritans and providing medical care to people who have attempted suicide

That someone has made a suicide attempt is not evidence of ongoing suicidal intent in itself. Moreover, if the person is unable to give consent (e.g. following an intentional drug overdose) in an emergency situation, no consent is required.

[emberling]

I don't know anything about sex changes. You might very well need government approval. You certainly would to get it changed on your ID.

Hormones and most ID changes require a therapist's testimonial that gender transition is necessary for continued mental health. Genital surgery requires the preceding diagnosis and a year of full-time cross-living. Some ID changes (birth certificates in many states) require genital surgery.

It seems like a reasonable model for a proposal of approved euthanasia - convince an expert that it's the only way to stop your pain, then go through a long enough waiting period that you know you're probably not going to change your mind. Then convince another expert. (You'd want the experts to be considerably more skeptical than the gender change ones.)

ETA: Don't take the above as gospel, I may have a few details wrong.