Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[Kolantero]

There were plenty of clues for Renly to know that Stannis was telling the truth such as the fact that Stannis, his brother and a man who was famous for upholding the law and fighting for Robert even though he did not like him just because he was his elder, was claiming so. Not to mention Ned Stark losing his head for claiming the exact same thing. Ned Stark who was famous for being honorable to the point of stupidity and who loved Robert like a brother and who would therefore never try to hurt Robert's children for power.

The truth was easy enough to see but Renly chose to believe what suited him to believe. And even then Renly is, from any point of view, an usurper:

- If Stannis was telling the truth then he is usurping his elder brother's throne

- If Stannis was lying then he is usurping his nephew's throne

From any point of view Renly is an usurper.

That being said, when we are examining Stannis' motives it would be more useful to examine either his point of view (from where he is the king) or reality's point of view (where he is the "rightful" king as Robert's heir).

[Nyrhex]

What I'm saying is that in order to play the "one true king" card, Stannis would have had to prove the rest of the world that he was. Until he didn't, he was just a pretender like any other.

Does'nt realy matter. Stannis is king, and as such should hang Renly for a traitor. As a subject of Joffrey, he should still hang Renly as a traitor who rose against his liege king. Renly's life is forfeit no matter how one looks at it.

[FC_Lymond]

One thing that is not emphasized in the books is that it is Stannis who goes after Renly. Renly already had a big enough host to take on KL at Storm's End. Stannis crosses a large swath of Westeros to attack him first. He chose to do that. Whether he authorized the assassination is only a small part of that.

Stannis could have done a lot of things besides going after Renly first. He could have tried to make an alliance with Rob. He could have sat at Dragonstone and seen if Renly (and the Tyrells) could take KL, then press his claim. But he chose to attack Renly.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I might be alone here, but I’d like to hear the views of others on the matter. Do you judge Stannis harshly for his decision, or do you understand it?

You're not alone.

I believe that Stannis is unfairly judged for his "decision" to kill Renly, because I feel that Stannis was misled by Mel as to how/why Renly would die.

One thing that is not emphasized in the books is that it is Stannis who goes after Renly. Renly already had a big enough host to take on KL at Storm's End. Stannis crosses a large swath of Westeros to attack him first. He chose to do that. Whether he authorized the assassination is only a small part of that.

Stannis could have done a lot of things besides going after Renly first. He could have tried to make an alliance with Rob. He could have sat at Dragonstone and seen if Renly (and the Tyrells) could take KL, then press his claim. But he chose to attack Renly.

Stannis chose to try to broker an alliance with his brother, not to attack him. Renly, and a large number of the men that followed Renly, should have been fighting for Stannis, and Stannis wanted to allow them the opportunity to do their duty if they didn't believe Joffrey should be their king. Renly chose his fate, not Stannis.

[mrunderhill]

There were plenty of clues for Renly to know that Stannis was telling the truth such as the fact that Stannis, his brother and a man who was famous for upholding the law and fighting for Robert even though he did not like him just because he was his elder, was claiming so. Not to mention Ned Stark losing his head for claiming the exact same thing. Ned Stark who was famous for being honorable to the point of stupidity and who loved Robert like a brother and who would therefore never try to hurt Robert's children for power.

The truth was easy enough to see but Renly chose to believe what suited him to believe. And even then Renly is, from any point of view, an usurper:

- If Stannis was telling the truth then he is usurping his elder brother's throne

- If Stannis was lying then he is usurping his nephew's throne

From any point of view Renly is an usurper.

That being said, when we are examining Stannis' motives it would be more useful to examine either his point of view (from where he is the king) or reality's point of view (where he is the "rightful" king as Robert's heir).

More than that, Catelyn has a talk with Renly and she seems to convince him that Stannis may have a point, but he does not care. Renly wants the attention.

I have never blamed Stannis for killing Renly. There was really no other way. Renly was a usurper and preparing to kill his brother's nephews. Robert had been incredibly generous to Renly and still he was going to betray his memory.

My issue has always been the use of 'dark' magic.

[Lady Nastja]

You're not alone.

I believe that Stannis is unfairly judged for his "decision" to kill Renly, because I feel that Stannis was misled by Mel as to how/why Renly would die.

Stannis chose to try to broker an alliance with his brother, not to attack him. Renly, and a large number of the men that followed Renly, should have been fighting for Stannis, and Stannis wanted to allow them the opportunity to do their duty if they didn't believe Joffrey should be their king. Renly chose his fate, not Stannis.

Well said, Tippy! We have to acknowledge the fact that Stannis was likely mislead by Melisandre, she has done many things without his knowledge as we know.

And as you have said, Renly chose his fate.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Renly did nothing wrong, whoever will take the IT must seize it

[mrunderhill]

Renly did nothing wrong, whoever will take the IT must seize it

Yes and with that attitude you have a civil war every time a king dies. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions will die and Westeros would be destroyed.

[binga]

Kinslaying is just some made up medieval rule. Killing anyone is wrong, killing your family members may be a bit worse but lets not act like it is some kind of much higher crime just because some medieval people think so. A lot of these guys also think that a woman should be killed for adultery, which is barbaric and cruel.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes and with that attitude you have a civil war every time a king dies. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions will die and Westeros would be destroyed.

Thats whats happening atm, I dont see why Renly gets hate for declaring himself king.

Whoever wants to be king must defeat all the kings like Aegon the conqueror.

[mrunderhill]

Thats whats happening atm, I dont see why Renly gets hate for declaring himself king.

Whoever wants to be king must defeat all the kings like Aegon the conqueror.

No they can inherit the throne legally like most Targaryen monarchs did. The reason things have gone crazy now is because Robert's children were not legitimately his and the Lannisters had to kill him before he found out the truth. Cersei has Robert's true born son and then Ned and Stannis remain loyal. If Renly dared to rebel he would be crushed by the combined might of the North, Crownlands, Riverlands, Westerlands, Dragonstone and possible the Vale too.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Renly did nothing wrong, whoever will take the IT must seize it

Renly knew he was a traitor to the Iron Throne, but he certainly had the choice to become a traitor.

Renly betrayed Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis, his own brothers and nephews (if he didn't believe that they were bastards). Renly chose his fate, and in the end he didn't have enough "might" to make his claim "right".

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Kinslaying is just some made up medieval rule. Killing anyone is wrong, killing your family members may be a bit worse but lets not act like it is some kind of much higher crime just because some medieval people think so. A lot of these guys also think that a woman should be killed for adultery, which is barbaric and cruel.

Exactly, it is a superstitious belief based in religious dogma.

Stannis killed someone that was fully prepared to kill him. Plus Renly even had the audacity to joke about Stannis' death, while Stannis grieved Renly, and tried his best to reason with Renly.

[Lazy Lion]

Renly was behind Stannis in the line of succession. But it must be remembered that Renly was completely dismissing the line of succession: as far as he was concerned, Joffrey and Tommen were both ahead of him also, and that didn't deter him.

Renly's claim to the IT wasn't based on the line of succession, it was based on his belief that he was better suited to it. And based on his overwhelming level of support from the Stormlands and the Reach, there were a great many others that agreed with him. Royal blood doesn't grant one iota of power, and neither does the crown. "Power resides where men believe it resides."

Whoever the people recognize as their King is the King, and by that standard Renly had a better claim than Stannis.

But I really dislike Stannis for three other reasons, the first of which is the manner of his brother's death. Renly was murdered via cheatcode, IMO. The Shadow Babies are a storybreaker, and I wish Martin hadn't included such a blatant deus ex machina.

Second, Stannis isn't King material, and I don't for a second believe his "I don't want to be King but it's mine by rights" speech. :bs:

Third and most heinously, Stannis brutally and thoughtlessly rejected the peach that Renly offered him. That I cannot forgive...or forget. :tantrum:

[Thendel]

I believe that the greatest cause for people condemning Stannis for fratricide is empathy: Most people have siblings that they love and would never ever want killed, even if a myriad of reasons compelled them to. And, more importantly to my point, they expect their sibling to feel the same, that the bond of blood goes both ways. Siblings simply stick together, and that's the end of it.

But thing is, Renly was no such brother. He never spoke to Stannis about his plans to oust the Lannisters or ensure a united Baratheon bid for the throne. When Robert died and Renly made out that he had to choose between rebelling against Joffrey or die, he didn't go to Dragonstone to make sure he and Stannis were on the same page in regards to Joffrey. For that matter, he would have known that by crowning himself, he ensured that he would have to confront Stannis sooner or later, as Stannis would alternatively have supported Joffrey if he hadn't discovered the incest. When a battle was to occur between them, he gave implict orders to kill Stannis, not capture him. When he spoke of Stannis on the small council, he made fun of Stannis' frigid marriage and he mocked his daughter, Renly's own niece, for her unattractiveness. Shireen, the sweet, sweet girl, is backtalked by her own uncle.

All in all, Renly sure did not behave like a brother to Stannis, as he didn't honor the bond of blood in any way. With that in mind, how can anyone expect Stannis to spare him because of a bond of blood that is hardly there? In my mind, Renly did not deserve the mercy of blood, and Stannis was thus in his right to kill him.

One last point: All we ever do is look at Stannis' pattern of behavior because of the fact that he killed Renly before Renly could kill him. Renly's own behavior, however, is forgotten because he ultimately did not succeed.

[Kolantero]

More than that, Catelyn has a talk with Renly and she seems to convince him that Stannis may have a point, but he does not care. Renly wants the attention.

I have never blamed Stannis for killing Renly. There was really no other way. Renly was a usurper and preparing to kill his brother's nephews. Robert had been incredibly generous to Renly and still he was going to betray his memory.

Very true. No matter the perspective Renly was a traitor and he was even given an opportunity to save himself even though he didn't deserve it.

My issue has always been the use of 'dark' magic.

Personally I can't bring myself to see shadowbabies or even "dark" magic as inherently problematic in a universe like ASOIAF. Aside from Renly who was the target (and Stannis himself) no one else was hurt in the process.

[mrunderhill]

Very true. No matter the perspective Renly was a traitor and he was even given an opportunity to save himself even though he didn't deserve it.

Personally I can't bring myself to see shadowbabies or even "dark" magic as inherently problematic in a universe like ASOIAF. Aside from Renly who was the target (and Stannis himself) no one else was hurt in the process.

The thing with magic is, you have no idea about the consequences. We don't know the full consequences of what it cost. Just look at Dany's attempt to bring back Drogo with blood magic. I don't think messing with things you don't understand usually ends well and in ASOIAF magic seems very sinister.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Renly was behind Stannis in the line of succession. But it must be remembered that Renly was completely dismissing the line of succession: as far as he was concerned, Joffrey and Tommen were both ahead of him also, and that didn't deter him.

Renly's claim to the IT wasn't based on the line of succession, it was based on his belief that he was better suited to it. And based on his overwhelming level of support from the Stormlands and the Reach, there were a great many others that agreed with him. Royal blood doesn't grant one iota of power, and neither does the crown. "Power resides where men believe it resides."

Whoever the people recognize as their King is the King, and by that standard Renly had a better claim than Stannis.

True, and Renly lost. He played the game, and the game kicked his butt.

But I really dislike Stannis for three other reasons, the first of which is the manner of his brother's death. Renly was murdered via cheatcode, IMO. The Shadow Babies are a storybreaker, and I wish Martin hadn't included such a blatant deus ex machina.

Not exactly.

There was a price to be paid for the magic that killed Renly. Plus, if the Targaryrens can have dragons, I don't see why Stannis can't have a "shadow baby" or two.

Third and most heinously, Stannis brutally and thoughtlessly rejected the peach that Renly offered him. That I cannot forgive...or forget. :tantrum:

Stannis also can't seem to forget the peach Renly offered him, even though it was clearly a jape.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Renly knew what Stannis is like. He knew that Stannis would view himself as rightful king and as such would not sit back and let Renly have the IT. Renly knew he would have to fight Stannis to the death to become king. He declared anyway because he figured that with a bigger host he would defeat Stannis and become a kinslayer himself.

Renly played the game of thrones and lost. He has nobody to blame but himself.

Or to use the age old childhood defense "Renly started it!"

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

snip

:agree:

I don't think messing with things you don't understand usually ends well and in ASOIAF magic seems very sinister.

I'm not sure.

In my opinion, magic in ASOIAF seems neutral. Its nature depends on the user and the purpose. In Stannis' case, I don't think he views Mel's "powers" as magic. He seems to view it as divine interaction from R'hllor, which further complicates the matter.