Baelor Swyft Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Stannis offered the Tyrells and Renly the the opportunity to do their duty and help him win the Throne as he once helped Robert. When Stannis realised everything was going to pot he sent that letter out, he gave everyone that didn't want Joffrey on the Throne a viable and legal alternative and they spat in his face. I think you've summed up Stannis very well. When the people of Westeros needed a hero, Stannis offered them his cold calculating tyranny and illusory grandiose ideals of lawfulness. Telling someone to "do their duty" isn't an offer. Can you really blame them for going to Renly, if Stannis wasn't going to give them jack shit? Stannis was a less viable alternative to Joffrey than was Renly, and he declared first. For being more likely to succeed, Stannis killed him. Stannis at the start of the WOT5K is a woefully clueless SOB that couldn't think his way out of a paper bag, too willfully stubborn to see even the most obvious truths. But luckily he's made many positive strides since then and is starting to become a viable ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose The Weddingcrasher Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Can you really blame them for going to Renly, if Stannis wasn't going to give them jack shit? You understand, that in this context, to "give" also means to "take" from someone else? People should realize, that Renly was a destructive force, just like Robert, only without a Jon Arryn to hold the things together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think you've summed up Stannis very well. When the people of Westeros needed a hero, Stannis offered them his cold calculating tyranny and illusory grandiose ideals of lawfulness. Telling someone to "do their duty" isn't an offer. Can you really blame them for going to Renly, if Stannis wasn't going to give them jack shit? Stannis was a less viable alternative to Joffrey than was Renly, and he declared first. For being more likely to succeed, Stannis killed him. Stannis at the start of the WOT5K is a woefully clueless SOB that couldn't think his way out of a paper bag, too willfully stubborn to see even the most obvious truths. But luckily he's made many positive strides since then and is starting to become a viable ruler. Its true he wasnt offering juicy a queenship to Mace Tyrells daughter, but if doing the right thing isnt an incentive does the fault lie with Stannis or those willingly and knowingly backing a usurper? I mean, there is a reason Robb Stark outright refused to declare for Renly, even though he was more viable and declared first. Plus you use the word tyrant too gleefully. Hard isnt necessarily bad. Stannis did offer Westeros a hero of a sort, a hard man who offers justice and rewards loyalty, its true that he doesnt soften his speech or woo maidens, but he does have a glittery sword. And he takes his job seriously, a protector of the realm who protects the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Poem Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Except, Stannis didn't kill Renly for declaring himself King. Stannis would eventually have done that, as he also would have with Robb Stark -- in the long run, if need be. But Stannis's first objective was to take King's Landing. Stannis killed Renly because Renly was vastly more popular and Stannis required Renly's army in order to take King's Landing from Joffrey. No. Renly is dead because Renly did'nt bend his knee before his liege lord and king, Stannis, when he had the chance do it. Popularity did'nt matter in this case. Not to mention, as you said, Renly declared himself King before Stannis. How is that supposed to be a crime worthy of a punishment from Stannis? Stannis had been twiddling his thumbs and Renly had no way of knowing that Stannis intended to do anything. That Stannis fancies himself the king doesn't really do any good if he's hiding in Dragonstone. Renly acts to remove the usurpers who killed their brother and you think Stannis has a moral right to kill him for it? I strongly disagree. Renly declared himself king without any right. Laws of succession are clear and simple: sons after fathers, older before younger etc. etc. For Renly Joffrey's, Tommen's, Stannis' rights did'nt matter. He knew nothing about Cersei's and Jaime's incest. He wanted sit on Iron Throne. Had a rightful king a right in punishing usurper, his younger brother, who was disloyal and disrespectful? Hmm. I think answer is yes. Even Littlefinger, clearly one of the greatest minds of his day, wholly discounts Stannis as a viable king. Sorry, You are wrong. Littlefinger knew if Stannis would sit on Iron Throne, Baelish's days in Small Council will end for ever. Stannis did'nt trust him and he was right. Had Stannis not been such a cruel, stubborn and foolish man, he'd have seen that helping Renly to conquer the realm is a better fate than allowing the Lannisters to rule. Had Renly not been unpatient, brattish, selfcentered BOY, he'd have seen that bending the knee before his older brother is a better fate than fighting with him.. "Pity they could'nt have joined forces and taken KIngs Landing" but who is responsible for all of it? And before you suggest Renly bend the knee, Stannis, already being married, had nothing adequate to offer the Tyrells. Crown Princess? Wife of Iron Throne's Heir? Maybe if Renly talk with Tyrells... Everyone knows Stannis has'nt son, Selyse will be his wife until she dies, Selyse is strong and healthy, Stannis is'nt known liar... etc. etc. Again his pride and ego prevents Stannis from making the intelligent choice. No. Renly's pride and ego (Look at me, I am king) prevents Renly from making a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Classicist Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 It could be seen as self-defense, considering that if Stannis hadn't Renly would have killed him. Also, Renly shows little remorse at the idea of killing Stannis, while Stannis seems more upset over his brother's death. Stannis was stuck in a situation where kinslaying was the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 My big thing is why did nobody in Stannis's camp thibk about what the rest of the host at Bitterbridge would do. Renly was: 1). Married to Mace's daughter who was his Queen; 2). Had one of Mace's sons as a rainbowguardsman and 3). Had Mace as his own hand. Stannis did not think they would retaliate? Really? Or did he simply think that if he rushed to King's Landing and killed Cersei & children that all would bow to the remaining Baratheon? I'd wager thar Tywin would fight to be king before he let that happen. A tyrell-lannister (or tyrell-northern) allliance seemed bound to happen given his policies and previous actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Cold Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 It could be seen as self-defense, considering that if Stannis hadn't Renly would have killed him. Also, Renly shows little remorse at the idea of killing Stannis, while Stannis seems more upset over his brother's death. Stannis was stuck in a situation where kinslaying was the only option. Another option would have been rejecting his claim in favor of Renly's and gaining the lordship of Storm's End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 It could be seen as self-defense, considering that if Stannis hadn't Renly would have killed him. Also, Renly shows little remorse at the idea of killing Stannis, while Stannis seems more upset over his brother's death. Stannis was stuck in a situation where kinslaying was the only option. Stannis talks of killing Renly while back on Dragonstone and makes the plans there, self-defence has nothing to do with it. Stannis struck first, Renly warned he'd retaliate, Stannis then murdered him, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Nichols Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Another option would have been rejecting his claim in favor of Renly's and gaining the lordship of Storm's End. Why would Stannis reject his claim?His claim is true.Renly had no claim.Renly was a thief and a traitor to his own family.So what that Stannis is guilty of kinslaying?Tyrion killed his own father.Renly deserved to die as did Tywin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Why would Stannis reject his claim?His claim is true.Renly had no claim.Renly was a thief and a traitor to his own family.So what that Stannis is guilty of kinslaying?Tyrion killed his own father.Renly deserved to die as did Tywin Because stannis didnt have the power to take westeros ..renly did no dont talk about incest as there is no proof to his claim and if he never wanted the throne or power like he claims he could have done what aemon did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Nichols Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Because stannis didnt have the power to take westeros ..renly did no dont talk about incest as there is no proof to his claim and if he never wanted the throne or power like he claims he could have done what aemon I mean no disrespect but I do not understand your logic.Joffery,Myrcella,and Tommen were born of incest.Robert had no trueborn children.Therefore by law Stannis is King.Renly only had a army because he stole Stannis Bannerman.Renly had no military experience unlike Stannis.Renly could never have taken Westeros.He would had lead his army to their deaths.Renly was a thief and a traitor.He tried to steal the Iron Throne even though he had no claim.He betrayed his family and not just Stannis.He believed Joffery was the trueborn son of Robert.Renly has no defense.The punishment for treason is death. "It is not a question of wanting.The throne is mine,as Robert's heir.That is law.After me,it must pass to my daughter,unless Selyse should finally give me a son.I am king.Wants do not enter into it.I have a duty to my daughter.To the realm.Even to Robert.He loved me but little,I know,yet he was my brother" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Nichols Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I think you've summed up Stannis very well. When the people of Westeros needed a hero, Stannis offered them his cold calculating tyranny and illusory grandiose ideals of lawfulness. Telling someone to "do their duty" isn't an offer. Can you really blame them for going to Renly, if Stannis wasn't going to give them jack shit? Stannis was a less viable alternative to Joffrey than was Renly, and he declared first. For being more likely to succeed, Stannis killed him. Stannis at the start of the WOT5K is a woefully clueless SOB that couldn't think his way out of a paper bag, too willfully stubborn to see even the most obvious truths. But luckily he's made many positive strides since then and is starting to become a viable ruler. "Cold calculating tyranny and illusory grandiose ideals of lawfulness" Could you please elaborate on how you came to that conclusion? "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man" Lord Varys talking about King Stannis Baratheon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 My big thing is why did nobody in Stannis's camp thibk about what the rest of the host at Bitterbridge would do. Renly was: 1). Married to Mace's daughter who was his Queen; 2). Had one of Mace's sons as a rainbowguardsman and 3). Had Mace as his own hand. Stannis did not think they would retaliate? Really? Or did he simply think that if he rushed to King's Landing and killed Cersei & children that all would bow to the remaining Baratheon? I'd wager thar Tywin would fight to be king before he let that happen. A tyrell-lannister (or tyrell-northern) allliance seemed bound to happen given his policies and previous actions. Read Davos II where he talks about this. He sent envoys to Bitterbridge to rally the infantry left behind by his lords (he has 80% of Renly's lords, knights and cavalry at this point) but suspected that Loras Tyrell would arrive first and claim the army for himself. He was practically spot on: Randyll and Loras arrived, seized the supplies, imprisoned his envoys, and massacred the Florents and anyone else overly inclined to support Stannis (meanwhile a lot of people were deserting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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