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Ser Scot A Ellison

ConCarolinas May 30 - June 1 2014: Charlotte NC GRRM Guest of honor

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The Tarbecks were mass executed. George stopped reading right after the Reyne story so he didnt get as far as Tywin's marriage

So Tywin was not yet married to Joanna when the Reynes were all killed? They had been engaged for a few years by then..

Thank you! :D

That Tytos' younger brother was 7 years younger, and that Joanna is suggested to have been a few years older than Tywin, still makes it not all too likely that Joanna was Tywin's first cousin, IMO.

Any more info on Jason?

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Thanks! Anything more you can tell us about Bloodraven? Like, how long did he spend in the black cells, why was he imprisoned, how did he find himself presiding over the Grand Council?

Did Tywin have numerical advantage over Reynes and Tarbecks? Was there a battle before he started his attacks on their castles? What was the reason for Reynes hiding in the mines - did they expect to hold until Tytos's arrival? How old was Tywin? Who betrothed him to Joanna? How did he take the Tarbeck castle? How long did the whole thing take?

TIA.

P.S. I am pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere in ASOIAF novels that Joanna was Tywin's first cousin. More than once, even. Doesn't preclude Martin from having a "better idea", of course.

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Thanks! Anything more you can tell us about Bloodraven? Like, how long did he spend in the black cells, why was he imprisoned, how did he find himself presiding over the Grand Council?

Did Tywin have numerical advantage over Reynes and Tarbecks? Was there a battle before he started his attacks on their castles? What was the reason for Reynes hiding in the mines - did they expect to hold until Tytos's arrival? How old was Tywin? Who betrothed him to Joanna? How did he take the Tarbeck castle? How long did the whole thing take?

TIA.

P.S. I am pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere in ASOIAF novels that Joanna was Tywin's first cousin. More than once, even. Doesn't preclude Martin from having a "better idea", of course.

No, I searched long for that, but Joanna is only described as a cousin, several times. Never a first cousin (or a second cousin, or something like that). It is never specified.

In an SSM someone asked a question once, describing Joanna as Tywins first cousin, and GRRM did not correct the person asking the question, but that, of course, doesn't have to mean anything.

The fact that we now know there was at least a younger brother does open up the possibility with some argument, of course. But it's nothing definitive.

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Joanna was not mentioned at all in the part George read. He did'nt read the whole Westerlands chapter though. There was a story about Tyto's younger brother but I don't remember the specifics. Hopefully someone with more detailed notes will fill in blanks.



The only thing I remember about Bloodraven was that he was on the Great Council.



The Reyne/Tarbeck thing was discussed in way more detail.There was a battle at Tarbeck castle. The Reynes gave surrender terms to Tywin that didn't go over so welll. Again hopefully someone with more detailed notes will chime in.


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Henri,



anything more specifics on the fourth Blackfyre Rebellion? Was there fighting in the Westerlands, and if so, for which pretender did Lord Tytos/Gerold declare?



And apparently there was also something on Maekar's death in the reading. GRRM said a long time ago that this had, apparently, nothing to do with a Blackfyre rebellion (or at least that Maekar was not killed while fighting a Blackfyre pretender, he fell fighting 'a rebel lord').



A pet theory of many people, including myself, is that this rebel lord was the last Lord Lothston of Harrenhal. Has this been confirmed?



Do you know if Dunk was already a member of the Kingsguard when he fought and killed Daemon III Blackfyre?



On Joanna/Stafford:



They could have been the children of this Jason guy. It seems that Tytos was not married to his Jeyne Marbrand when Ellyn's husband Tion Lannister died, so it's easily imaginable that Jason's was a very young father - who have married before Tytos - whereas Tywin was not born immediately after Tytos married Jeyne...


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@Lord Varys, I'm not saying it's impossible :) It most certainly is possible. Especially with the little info we have on Tytos' age (there wasn't anything in the reading on Tytos' age, or Gerolds age, anywhere, coincidentally?).



@Henri, thank you very much for all the info you've provided so far :) Awesome!!


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Henri,

anything more specifics on the fourth Blackfyre Rebellion? Was there fighting in the Westerlands, and if so, for which pretender did Lord Tytos/Gerold declare?

The Lannisters were fighting for Aegon

And apparently there was also something on Maekar's death in the reading. GRRM said a long time ago that this had, apparently, nothing to do with a Blackfyre rebellion (or at least that Maekar was not killed while fighting a Blackfyre pretender, he fell fighting 'a rebel lord'). I wanna say he died from a head injury. The lord was mentioned but I don't remember the name

A pet theory of many people, including myself, is that this rebel lord was the last Lord Lothston of Harrenhal. Has this been confirmed?

Do you know if Dunk was already a member of the Kingsguard when he fought and killed Daemon III Blackfyre? I believe so. Egg was king by then

On Joanna/Stafford:

They could have been the children of this Jason guy. It seems that Tytos was not married to his Jeyne Marbrand when Ellyn's husband Tion Lannister died, so it's easily imaginable that Jason's was a very young father - who have married before Tytos - whereas Tywin was not born immediately after Tytos married Jeyne...

It seemed like it was a short time between when Tion died and Gerold married off Ellyn to the Tarbeck (less than a year).George described a rivalry between Jeyne and Ellen to see who would have more kids so Jeyne was in the picture at this point.

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The new info about the 233 AC Great Council is both shocking and exciting. Bloodraven is definitely THE puppetmaster. Now I'm wondering about his motivations: did he secure Egg's rise for his qualities/potential or did he see something down the (blood)line? Mind.Blowing.


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Anything on Jeyne Marbrand's personality and participation in events other than baby-making contests? Did she die early, or was she still around when Tywin destroyed the 2 rebellious Houses?


I guess, Ellyn Reyne didn't have any kids with her Tion, but only with Lord Tarbeck, ironically enough? The woman reminds me of Theon - she so badly wanted to be a Lannister... and when it didn't work out she turned against them viciously.



"The Reynes gave surrender terms to Tywin that didn't go over so welll."



Were they proposing their own surrender or Tywin's?



Thanks for the good work!


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Interesting. So Gerold had the right to decide who Ellyn had to marry, even though Ellyn came from another house? The Reyne's were not in the picture with this?

Also, did Tion die after Tywin had already been born? If so, that could have sparked the discussion on who would have more kids. Ellyn, the wife of the heir of CR, who still didn't have a kid, or Jeyne, the wife of the younger brother, who had already birthed at least one child.

A problematic relationship between Jeyne and Ellyn also gives more ground to the attitude Genna seems to have had towards Ellyn.

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Oh, then the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion happened during Egg's reign?! That's interesting!



I thought it happened before Maekar's death. This then really means that Egg saw more than one Blackfyre rebellion throughout his entire reign...



Ah, okay, then Tytos was already married and Ellyn was sort of a nuisance at Casterly Rock after she was widowed for the second time... That explains a lot.


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FF3,

The great debate now is whether Egg sent BR to the Wall or if BR went of his own accord.

At this point I'd bet on the latter. And I can't help but feel it's very much related to that seeing I was mentioning upthread...

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A problematic relationship between Jeyne and Ellyn also gives more ground to the attitude Genna seems to have had towards Ellyn.

Yes, it seems that reflex to defend their mother and her position would have been deeply ingrained in these kids because of Ellyn's hostility and intrigues. Which may have colored their views on the chandler's daughter later on as well.

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One great detail was about the second Tyrion Lannister, one of the kings before the Conquest. He was one of the bad kings, who only lusted after a woman after he made her bleed. He was the tormenter, the torturer. GRRM does mention that once one of those Lannister names gets associated with a bad ruler, the name stops being reused in later generations. So does this mean Tywin deliberately named his monster infant Tyrion after an evil monster from the Lannister past?

There was a lot in the reading that I thought shown light on Tyrion and Tywins relationship. Some very enlightening details.

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One great detail was about the second Tyrion Lannister, one of the kings before the Conquest. He was one of the bad kings, who only lusted after a woman after he made her bleed. He was the tormenter, the torturer. GRRM does mention that once one of those Lannister names gets associated with a bad ruler, the name stops being reused in later generations. So does this mean Tywin deliberately named his monster infant Tyrion after an evil monster from the Lannister past?

There was a lot in the reading that I thought shown light on Tyrion and Tywins relationship. Some very enlightening details.

Any chance you are willing/have the time to post some details? :)

Per GRRM we will hear more about Elia and her relationship with Raeghar. He said it was "complex".

This I have been waiting for for sooooo long. I assume he didn't talk specifics, right? :)

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Anything on Jeyne Marbrand's personality and participation in events other than baby-making contests? Did she die early, or was she still around when Tywin destroyed the 2 rebellious Houses?

I guess, Ellyn Reyne didn't have any kids with her Tion, but only with Lord Tarbeck, ironically enough? The woman reminds me of Theon - she so badly wanted to be a Lannister... and when it didn't work out she turned against them viciously.

"The Reynes gave surrender terms to Tywin that didn't go over so welll."

Were they proposing their own surrender or Tywin's?

Thanks for the good work!

Their own

Interesting. So Gerold had the right to decide who Ellyn had to marry, even though Ellyn came from another house? The Reyne's were not in the picture with this?

Also, did Tion die after Tywin had already been born? If so, that could have sparked the discussion on who would have more kids. Ellyn, the wife of the heir of CR, who still didn't have a kid, or Jeyne, the wife of the younger brother, who had already birthed at least one child.

A problematic relationship between Jeyne and Ellyn also gives more ground to the attitude Genna seems to have had towards Ellyn.

Tion died before Tywin was born.

Oh, then the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion happened during Egg's reign?! That's interesting!

I thought it happened before Maekar's death. This then really means that Egg saw more than one Blackfyre rebellion throughout his entire reign...

Ah, okay, then Tytos was already married and Ellyn was sort of a nuisance at Casterly Rock after she was widowed for the second time... That explains a lot.

Ellyn was widowed once. She was only betrothed to the first twin. He died before they married

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