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R+L=J v. 57


Stubby

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The use of the word "look" in the last sentence has a legalistic tone to it, and that the house name was used implied that Ashara was looking for justice through House Stark. Then we need to consider how Barristan thought that he could provide justice, which could be quite easy with his access to the king. That would fit, wouldn't it? Things really begin to make sense if you look at it in this light.

Found the passage.

Thanks for the Darth Varder...

It's just occured to me...Ashara, dishonered by Robert...? I think it's just as likely, and it so explains Ned's involvement in the affair.

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It wasn't me who used the word miscarriage but Alia. I was just pointing out that by common definition, after 20 weeks it's no longer a miscarriage but a stillbirth (if the fetus dies in the womb) or a (high risk) premature birth. I see we've read the same Wikipedia article, and if you scroll down a bit on the page, you'll find that the definition for stillbirth varies from 20 to 24 weeks, depending on the country. Usually it does imply full-term pregnancy, but the greatest difference, between miscarriage and stillbirth is that the fetus has reached a certain stage of development before dying in the womb. After 20 weeks, a baby, albeit small, has a chance to survive premature birth. So if there is no fetal death, than it's not a miscarriage but a premature birth and if there is a fetal death - in the womb - its a stillbirth.

Well, GRRM is not writing about modern times, and it is extremely unlikely that a one month premature baby would survive in Westeros.

Can you quote the sentence you're speaking about? I'm not following you at all. What chapter of Barristan is that?

I know that I have in the past, but I don't have the books to hand right now. It is Barristan musing about Harrenhal, and he mentions that a man dishonored Ashara there. Then in the last sentences he derides himself for not being good enough to defeat Rhaegar and win the crown to award to Ashara. If he had awarded the crown to her, he thinks that Ashara would know in what esteem he holds her, and would at least approach him in looking for redress.

Ashara being Lemore and Aegon her son? is that what makes sense? or the opposite? there was two questions asked ;)

about the first, I don't know. I don't like it. I prefer to think that Varys and Illyrio are really plotting to put a Blackfyre on the throne. I don't believe for one second that the both of them are acting for the good of the Targaryen house. And wouldn't Ashara hated Aegon, if he was born from rape?

I never have considered a mother hating a child, even one born from rape. Especially one that chose not to abort.

I kind of like Lemore being Ashara, and secretly raising her own son. If Varys' plot, all along was to replace the Targaryens with Blackfyres, I think we would have seen more and varied activity prior to the rebellion, and not a fifteen year gap.

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It's just occured to me...Ashara, dishonered by Robert...? I think it's just as likely, and it so explains Ned's involvement in the affair.

could be. though I had less sense that Ned competes with Robert and more of a sense that Ned must compete with Brandon. Why wouldn't he have just told Cat that Jon was Robert's? Whereas it would have been more problematic to have told Cat that Jon was Brandon's. . . and anyway, everything Ned has was always meant to be Brandon's. . . even Cat. Seems more to me like Brandon stole Ashara from Ned in the first place. Which makes the story he sells Cat (without even confirming Ashara as Jon's mother!) that much more plausible.

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could be. though I had less sense that Ned competes with Robert and more of a sense that Ned must compete with Brandon. Why wouldn't he have just told Cat that Jon was Robert's? Whereas it would have been more problematic to have told Cat that Jon was Brandon's. . . and anyway, everything Ned has was always meant to be Brandon's. . . even Cat. Seems more to me like Brandon stole Ashara from Ned in the first place. Which makes the story he sells Cat (without even affirming Ashara as Jon's mother!) that much more plausible.

You do realize that if we are talking about Ashara's child living, it would be a year old at the end of the rebellion, right?
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You do realize that if we are talking about Ashara's child living, it would be a year old at the end of the rebellion, right?

yep. I'm just testing it out. it doesn't quite fit the timeline, but the story told about it is seriously believable, even to Ned's own wife.

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could be. though I had less sense that Ned competes with Robert and more of a sense that Ned must compete with Brandon. Why wouldn't he have just told Cat that Jon was Robert's? Whereas it would have been more problematic to have told Cat that Jon was Brandon's. . . and anyway, everything Ned has was always meant to be Brandon's. . . even Cat. Seems more to me like Brandon stole Ashara from Ned in the first place. Which makes the story he sells Cat (without even confirming Ashara as Jon's mother!) that much more plausible.

I didn't mean Ashara is Jon's mother, but that the man who dishonered Ashara at the tourney was Robert.

Page 879 Hardcover

"But Ashara's daughter had been still born, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knwing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was aknight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her of his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

I agree that look to me instead of Stark sounds like Ashara sought 'justice' or someone at least to act as a conciliator. I'm inclined to believe this person was Ned...though if the man who dishonored her was Robert, and not Brandon, then I think Rhaegar could also have added his two cents. And Lyanna would count among the 'injured' party. In Lyanna's eyes, the betrothal might have been as good as broken. Ashara might have desired a marriage. In Ned's eyes, then Robert would not truly be entitled to feel 'injustice' was done to him when Rhaegar 'kidnapped' Lyanna – thus Ned keeps silent while Robert laments Lyanna’s death. This scenario would make Robert into a total hypocrite, and incidentally also, the one setting the grounds for the rebellion to come.

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[...] I never have considered a mother hating a child, even one born from rape. Especially one that chose not to abort.

I kind of like Lemore being Ashara, and secretly raising her own son. If Varys' plot, all along was to replace the Targaryens with Blackfyres, I think we would have seen more and varied activity prior to the rebellion, and not a fifteen year gap.

I think that moon tea is mostly used to prevent conception. Lysa had an abortion with tansy (do we know if tansy = moon tea?) and from what we know of it, it probably wasn't very good for her health...doesn't Hoster Tully remember that there was "so much blood"? and she had plenty of miscarriage after that. So I think abortions were a great health hazard and only rarely done.

As for a woman hating a child born of rape...I suppose it depends on the woman, and on how much the child looks like the aggressor... but I can see it happening.

Edit: actually, how do we know Ashara didn't abort? Stillbirth?

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I didn't mean Ashara is Jon's mother, but that the man who dishonered Ashara at the tourney was Robert.

Page 879 Hardcover

I agree that look to me instead of Stark sounds like Ashara sought 'justice' or someone at least to act as a conciliator. I'm inclined to believe this person was Ned...though if the man who dishonored her was Robert, and not Brandon, then I think Rhaegar could also have added his two cents. And Lyanna would count among the 'injured' party. In Lyanna's eyes, the betrothal might have been as good as broken. Ashara might have desired a marriage. In Ned's eyes, then Robert would not truly be entitled to feel 'injustice' was done to him when Rhaegar 'kidnapped' Lyanna – thus Ned keeps silent while Robert laments Lyanna’s death. This scenario would make Robert into a total hypocrite, and incidentally also, the one setting the grounds for the rebellion to come.

now I gotcha. imagine how that would've played out on Judge Judy. I always thought that the rift between Ned and Robert occurred mainly because the incident with the Lannisters killing the children was glossed over in favor of Robert cementing the alliance via marriage to Cersei, and that Ned could use his return to duties in the North and desire to take Lyanna home to bury as an excuse to stay there and 'put the past behind him.' Robert could keep his friendship at a distance while Ned held the North and Robert could keep his enemies closer.

Your interpretation of events certainly would make Robert a hypocrite, but we also have suspected before now that he has certain. . . revisionist ways of thinking about events. He does seem to confine his extramarital activities to the lower classes; if it was Robert who seduced Ashara he must have learned to keep his hands off noblewomen-- too much trouble.

Still, there is little sense of animosity or competition between Ned and Robert in terms of women. Just a sense that Ned doesn't necessarily approve of Robert frequenting brothels (he compares him to Rhaegar, wondering if Rhaegar would've acted that way) and his unsettled memories of Robert's dealings with Lyanna (Ned tells her he loves you in his way-- and Lyanna points out that he'll never be faithful). If Robert had seduced Ashara at the Tourney, I think it plausible that a rift would have opened between the two men sooner.

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now I gotcha. imagine how that would've played out on Judge Judy. I always thought that the rift between Ned and Robert occurred mainly because the incident with the Lannisters killing the children was glossed over in favor of Robert cementing the alliance via marriage to Cersei, and that Ned could use his return to duties in the North and desire to take Lyanna home to bury as an excuse to stay there and 'put the past behind him.' Robert could keep his friendship at a distance while Ned held the North and Robert could keep his enemies closer.

Your interpretation of events certainly would make Robert a hypocrite, but we also have suspected before now that he has certain. . . revisionist ways of thinking about events. He does seem to confine his extramarital activities to the lower classes; if it was Robert who seduced Ashara he must have learned to keep his hands off noblewomen-- too much trouble.

Still, there is little sense of animosity or competition between Ned and Robert in terms of women. Just a sense that Ned doesn't necessarily approve of Robert frequenting brothels (he compares him to Rhaegar, wondering if Rhaegar would've acted that way) and his unsettled memories of Robert's dealings with Lyanna (Ned tells her he loves you in his way-- and Lyanna points out that he'll never be faithful). If Robert had seduced Ashara at the Tourney, I think it plausible that a rift would have opened between the two men sooner.

Yes, but the "never talk to me about Ashara Dayne" from Ned to Catelyn, indicates, IMO, that there was a personal involvement for Ned that went beyong helping Ashara find justice. Aerys, in that case, seems out. Brandon is possible. But I think Robert is also possible. Ned needn't have been in love with Ashara. He could be rightfully angry on her behalf concerning Robert's behavior both towards Ashara and Lyanna. He might even consider in retrospect (not at the tourney, not the end of the war, but later, after Robert has been made King) that the whole trouble started with Robert dishonoring Ashara - thus he does not want to hear of it. And Robert did father Edric Storm on Delena Florent.

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Yes, but the "never talk to me about Ashara Dayne" from Ned to Catelyn, indicates, IMO, that there was a personal involvement for Ned that went beyong helping Ashara find justice. Aerys, in that case, seems out. Brandon is possible. But I think Robert is also possible. Ned needn't have been in love with Ashara. He could be rightfully angry on her behalf concerning Robert's behavior both towards Ashara and Lyanna. He might even consider in retrospect (not at the tourney, not the end of the war, but later, after Robert has been made King) that the whole trouble started with Robert dishonoring Ashara - thus he does not want to hear of it. And Robert did father Edric Storm on Delena Florent.

Are you sure that you have this quote correct?
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Are you sure that you have this quote correct?

I don't have the first two books, so no. Oh, gotta. You mean, he doesn't speak to Catelyn directly, only that Ashara's name was never heard again, right? okay, good point. Still he asks "where have you heard that name" doesn't he? and he gets really angry.

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From GOT

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Ned is definitely upset by her question. And he makes it clear that further discussion of the rumors, in his household, are to stop.

His immediate response is "Never ask me about Jon." was there another time this is mentioned and he explicity forbids her from talking about Ashara?

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From GOT

Ned is definitely upset by her question. And he makes it clear that further discussion of the rumors, in his household, are to stop.

His immediate response is "Never ask me about Jon." was there another time this is mentioned and he explicity forbids her from talking about Ashara?

No I got confused, I don't have the first two books and read them some six years ago.

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And before I head out for the day, just putting in my two cents, my strongest sense is that it was Brandon who fathered Asharas child, and my crackpot is that its Allyria Dayne, Edrics "aunt" that is the supposed miscarried child.

- People remember what they think they saw happen, and they saw Ashara and Ned dance.

- There is suggested tension between Ned and Brandon. Ned to Cat: "it was all for him, even you..." I think there is a caveat to this.

- Part of Neds reparations to House Dayne is for him to take the hit to his honor for what his brother did, just the way someone else took the hit to his honor to protect a certain "wolf maid....."

It is perhaps better for a living daughter of that union to be claimed legitimate by Asharas parents for better marriage prospects if she looks outside of Dorne, and in so doing, Ned lives the lie that it's Jon who is their "son" and whom he is raising. In this he protects both his niece and his nephew.

I like this idea because it actually explains quite a few little things. First, it has been noted that Allyria is most likely rather young (say 15 or so?) or she would be married to Beric, rather than simply betrothed. Also, let's say Ned Dayne has an idea that Allyria is really a Stark (but thinks Ned is the father...) that might explain his confusion when talking to Arya about her father, and perhaps even this cryptic remark:

I saw him at the Hand's tourney. I wanted to go up and speak to him, but I couldn't think what to say.

This always struck me as an odd thing to say, if we accept the conventional story. But if you apply some vague sense of kinship, then you might have an explanation for a young boy's awkward desire to speak to the second most powerful man in the kingdom.

Finally, the exact quote above from Ned about Brandon always implied a sense of bitterness to me which B+A (especially if we also accept as fact that shy Ned really did want to dance with Ashara) would explain.

*snip*

:bowdown:

Happy to see your brilliance shine here Yeade! Well said :)

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i thought there was a memory of Ned's maybe, where he recalls telling Cat not to speak her name ever again. but this could just be my faulty memory.

but it does beg the question as to whether Ned is protecting his own feelings, other's feelings, or something larger.

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i thought there was a memory of Ned's maybe, where he recalls telling Cat not to speak her name ever again. but this could just be my faulty memory.

but it does beg the question as to whether Ned is protecting his own feelings, other's feelings, or something larger.

It has been discussed in these threads before. That is why I knew the quote was incorrect. Ned gets angry because Catelyn asks about Jon's mother, not because she mentions Ashara. Then he asks where Catelyn had heard the name.
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