Jump to content

R+L=J v. 57


Stubby

Recommended Posts

Wylla is mentioned twice from two different sources, her being the mother fits with the timeline, and Arya is probably going to get to Jon at the Wall after leaving Braavos and when they meet up again she'll say "Wylla is your mother". So like George promised, Jon will find out the truth of his parentage

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wylla is mentioned twice from two different sources, her being the mother fits with the timeline, and Arya is probably going to get to Jon at the Wall after leaving Braavos and when they meet up again she'll say "Wylla is your mother". So like George promised, Jon will find out the truth of his parentage

Really, and why wouldn't Ned tell Catelyn and Jon about Wylla? What significance is that going to have within the story? There is so much more that goes unresolved if this were to be the case, but let's start here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like this idea because it actually explains quite a few little things. First, it has been noted that Allyria is most likely rather young (say 15 or so?) or she would be married to Beric, rather than simply betrothed. Also, let's say Ned Dayne has an idea that Allyria is really a Stark (but thinks Ned is the father...) that might explain his confusion when talking to Arya about her father, and perhaps even this cryptic remark:

This always struck me as an odd thing to say, if we accept the conventional story. But if you apply some vague sense of kinship, then you might have an explanation for a young boy's awkward desire to speak to the second most powerful man in the kingdom.

Finally, the exact quote above from Ned about Brandon always implied a sense of bitterness to me which B+A (especially if we also accept as fact that shy Ned really did want to dance with Ashara) would explain.

:bowdown:

Happy to see your brilliance shine here Yeade! Well said :)

Well, when I thought about it again, (because I've entertained a diverse group of theories), I just come back to what seems the most simple and least elaborate scenario.

I don't have textual evidence that Ashara ever attempted to be rid of her pregnancy, so I think Ashara must have wanted the child since there do seem to be options given Ariannes statement about making sure "she drank her tea."

So, whatever happened at Harrenhal was not "dishonor," but consensual.

We also happen to have more evidence of Brandon Starks nature via Lady Dustin and Ashara Dayne looking to Stark for some kind of support.

On Ashara "turning to Stark," again, I go back to the times.

A woman simply didn't have such relationships with men outside her family as to confide in them such intimacies, (even today, that would be awkward as a good guy-friend would be hard put to really know what to say to help), but then?

Such things would not be discussed with a man she barely talked to at a dance unless he could directly affect her situation.

So, that leads me to believe that the reason she turned to Stark, (whether it was Lyanna, Rickard, or Ned), was because there is a common denominator that leads her to turn to Stark- another Stark.

Another Stark could bring another Stark to heel.

The themes of misinformation, (the same themes we see in Romeo and Juliet), are also at work in this series with the same horrific consequences, and people understood that they saw Ned and Ashara because Brandon and Ashara would not be so open given Brandons betrothal, which also leads to what Edric has been told, but just the wrong brother.

Did Brandon ask Ashara to dance with Ned to cure him of his shyness, or to be a foil for what he knew exactly people would see?

And yes, Allyria only being betrothed now instead of married says something of her age, which is what got my attention to begin with, that and I think Martin alluded to Brandon having a bastard(s).

So, for me, this is more simple and makes the most sense, though it doesn't negate others opinions.

I also lean towards Ashara being dead. When you look at the language patterns of Martin, and it's been awhile since I read it, but the app. does seem to use pretty definitive language about Ashara being dead; the same language as with Rhaegar, Lyanna and Brandons death.

The only place where there is a little word-play regarding "death" is with Aegon and Jon.

If Ashara is alive, I think she is more apt to be the mysterious, "haunting" Quaith, (there is a some mysticism associated with the Daynes and Dawns origins), while the mother of Faegon is his mother, but Serra, Illyrios wife IMHO.

Trivia: The actor, Jack Nicholson was raised by his grandparents believing them to be his parents as his "sister" was actually his mother, so truth is stranger than fiction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not really relevant to the current discussion, but I wanted to comment on the idea that ASOIAF would be just as awesome if R+L=J turns out to be false. I think that, in the heated debate over whether this-or-that passage from the books supports the theory, people have kind of overlooked that the very fact that R+L=J is even potentially relevant to understanding the intended nuances of so much of GRRM's writing means that Jon Snow's parents proving to be any other couple at this late date would also remove an entire layer of richness from the text.

Reading ASOIAF with R+L=J in mind is an interesting experience, IMO. Not only does the theory lend narrative weight to sequences like Ygritte recounting the legend of Bael the Bard to Jon and Meera entertaining Bran with a fanciful take on the tourney at Harrenhal, which otherwise are difficult to explain in terms of relevance to the present story, but it would not be much of an exaggeration to say that every other line about or involving Jon on a wide range of subjects from family and honor to kings and dragons doubles as some pretty fantastic dramatic irony.

Take this observation of Jon from Tyrion in AGOT:

He had the Stark face, if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Minus R+L=J, this is just a throwaway thought. Tyrion tells us readers nothing that we don't already know from Catelyn and Arya's earlier POVs. With R+L=J, however, there is suddenly a wealth of sly humor in Tyrion assuming Jon inherited little from his mother when in fact the exact opposite is true.

Similar ironies are sprinkled throughout the series. As another example, Jon advising Sam on his plan to send Gilly and her son to Horn Hill, claiming to Lord Randyll that the babe is his bastard.

[sam] swallowed nervously and said, "Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a... a good purpose?"

"It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose."

Neatly echoing Ned in his assurance to Arya that she was right to force Nymeria to leave her: "And even the lie was... not without honor." R+L=J theorists tend to believe Ned's remembering the lies he told to protect Jon and keep his promise to Lyanna, who's on his mind not a page earlier for Arya's resemblance to her.

With R+L=J, these two scenes are lovely mirrors to one another, resonant with connective emotion and history. Minus R+L=J... I suppose the identical phrasing is merely a coincidence. And both conversations are a tad bit flatter because there's no subtext to either beyond what the characters are discussing.

So, can R+L=J be wrong? That possibility cannot be categorically ruled out, IMO. If so, though, I must admit I'll lose some of my respect for GRRM as a writer. For either missing a huge opportunity to deepen his story, both in complexity and coherency, or changing his original ideas only for the sake of doing the unexpected.

Shocking twists are vastly overrated as a literary device in this fandom, I feel. The lasting impact of a work of literature surely rests in the profundity of its themes and characterization, which is often supported structurally by symbolism and parallels that connect seemingly different elements of the narrative together. For example, characters to their foils or the past to the present to the future. Surprises are surprising only the first time around, whereas foreshadowing and other literary clues, meticulously laid, reward the reader who reads the books again and again.

In terms of sustainable literary merit, then, R+L=J has every other theory of Jon's parentage beat by dozens of allusions, ranging from the Targaryen colors appearing unexpectedly in Jon's chapters to all the references to kings and dragons both, which seem to be increasing in number through ADWD. So, no, excising R+L=J does not a better series make.

You are my new best deity. :)

Where is the shrine?!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wylla is mentioned twice from two different sources, her being the mother fits with the timeline, and Arya is probably going to get to Jon at the Wall after leaving Braavos and when they meet up again she'll say "Wylla is your mother". So like George promised, Jon will find out the truth of his parentage

What timeline are you talking about? Where do we have any information about Ned meeting Wylla nine months before Jon's birth?If you take Robert's enquiring as a proof of a meeting, then you should remember that Robert never, ever, saw her personally and relied on information that Ned had fed him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But what did he mean by that? I'm sorry to say I've fallen asleep at every turn when I tried to watch Star Wars...I have no idea what this means...besides the "I am you're father" quote, m'not even sure I got that right. But, it seems irrelevant, because whether Ned, Brandon, Aerys, Rhaegar...Robert...they are dead. That leaves, Bloodraven of course...and Mance Rayder, and Tormund - there's one title Tormund doesn't have yet! father to wolves - and Jon Connington :)

Had this thought - just a thought - once, that Rhaegar meant for Jon Connington to marry Lyanna...Jon would have had an heir, without having to do the deed, and Lyanna would have been made a proper lady, not a second wife, nor anything else and Jon would have been so happy to raise Rhaegar's son... Anyway. So Darth Vader? What's the story?

Darth Vader is the bad guy or enemy who ends up being the father of the hero. I suppose Rhaegar could be defined as an enemy depending on your perspective and how much you know about him. Alfie Allen's knowledge of the books may be limited. Aerys however seems to be more of a typical bad guy.

Plus, there is this parallel of a special boy brought up by his uncle in ignorance of who his parents truly were.

Reading your posts reminded me of a few other similarities between Jon Snow and Luke Skywalker and the ASOIAF/Star Wars worlds. (This is of course assuming R+L=J)

-Both were born from lineages with strong preternatural powers; the Skywalkers are naturally strong in the force, have the power of precognition/the Targaryen's are dragon lords and some also have the power of precognition.

-Both were the products of "secret/forbidden" relationships with each one having a parent who was a high ranking royal. In Jon's case, it was his father; in Luke's case, his mother.

-Both of their mothers died in childbirth.

-Both were born in secret and hidden away to be raised in obscurity for their protection, ignorant of their true nature and parentage.

-Both were raised/mentored under the watchful eye of two honorable knights, Ned Stark and Obi Wan Kenobi (pseudo-father figures) who know the truth about their identity (come to think of it, Maester Aemon has a very Obi Wan Kenobi feel to him too).

-Both join monastic knight orders.

- Like the concept of TPTWP in ASOIAF, the Jedi's in Star Wars also have an ancient prophecy of a "Chosen One," a Jedi Knight so strong in the force that he can bring balance to it's two opposing sides (the light & dark sides, a very similar concept to fire & ice). Both Jon & Luke's father's were originally to be these "promised ones," before their sons.

-When Anakin discovered as a child on Tatooine by young Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon Jinn they

are impressed with how naturally strong he is in the force. Qui-Gon Jin becomes convinced that

Anakin is the Choosen One of the prophecy and he brings him to the Jedi Council to proclaim him

as such and to train him as a Jedi so he can fulfill his destiny (training as a knight to fulfill a

prophecy; sound familar?

Unfortunatley Anakin does not initially live up to his full potential and takes a brief detour to the dark side in the guise of Darth Vader. Ultimately, it was his son Luke who turned out to be Jedi to fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force (though it should be noted that his father played a vital role by laying the groundwork for this and ultimately redeems himself by killing the Emperor). We still don't know enough about Rhaegar or Jon's ultimate fate, but the similarities are interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, when I thought about it again, (because I've entertained a diverse group of theories), I just come back to what seems the most simple and least elaborate scenario.

I don't have textual evidence that Ashara ever attempted to be rid of her pregnancy, so I think Ashara must have wanted the child since there do seem to be options given Ariannes statement about making sure "she drank her tea."

So, whatever happened at Harrenhal was not "dishonor," but consensual.

We also happen to have more evidence of Brandon Starks nature via Lady Dustin and Ashara Dayne looking to Stark for some kind of support.

On Ashara "turning to Stark," again, I go back to the times.

A woman simply didn't have such relationships with men outside her family as to confide in them such intimacies, (even today, that would be awkward as a good guy-friend would be hard put to really know what to say to help), but then?

Such things would not be discussed with a man she barely talked to at a dance unless he could directly affect her situation.

So, that leads me to believe that the reason she turned to Stark, (whether it was Lyanna, Rickard, or Ned), was because there is a common denominator that leads her to turn to Stark- another Stark.

Another Stark could bring another Stark to heel.

The themes of misinformation, (the same themes we see in Romeo and Juliet), are also at work in this series with the same horrific consequences, and people understood that they saw Ned and Ashara because Brandon and Ashara would not be so open given Brandons betrothal, which also leads to what Edric has been told, but just the wrong brother.

Did Brandon ask Ashara to dance with Ned to cure him of his shyness, or to be a foil for what he knew exactly people would see?

And yes, Allyria only being betrothed now instead of married says something of her age, which is what got my attention to begin with, that and I think Martin alluded to Brandon having a bastard(s).

So, for me, this is more simple and makes the most sense, though it doesn't negate others opinions.

I also lean towards Ashara being dead. When you look at the language patterns of Martin, and it's been awhile since I read it, but the app. does seem to use pretty definitive language about Ashara being dead; the same language as with Rhaegar, Lyanna and Brandons death.

The only place where there is a little word-play regarding "death" is with Aegon and Jon.

If Ashara is alive, I think she is more apt to be the mysterious, "haunting" Quaith, (there is a some mysticism associated with the Daynes and Dawns origins), while the mother of Faegon is his mother, but Serra, Illyrios wife IMHO.

Trivia: The actor, Jack Nicholson was raised by his grandparents believing them to be his parents as his "sister" was actually his mother, so truth is stranger than fiction.

Yes, Brandon could be the common denominator, though I think Robert, really is just as likely. Robert and Ned grew up like brothers, after all.

I like the idea that Allyria is Brandon's daughter, but I'm not sure what it would add to the story, besides muddling waters... admittedly, that might be a sufficient raison d'être for Allyria.

But theoretically, Allyria would be the first (?) born daughter of the eldest son - so could we expect the Daynes to challenge Sansa's claim on Winterfell?

Thinking about it, I really don't believe that Jon will ever have the chance to become King in the North - but even if he did, I don't see him taking up that title as long as Stannis lives. Having two different Kings up north, plus Boltons/Freys would just be stupid, and weaken the north even more...anyway, by the time he's ‘healed’ (unless he’s really dead.) Rickon might be back on the screen to be used by Manderly. Even if Rickon is not there, Sansa might be, unless she stays Alayne a while longer.

So with only Rickon as a contender to the North, might Allyria and the Daynes, press her claim? I've always wondered who Aegon could marry, if not Dany. Sansa/Alayne would be a good party. Arianne as well, though I doubt she'd be interested in marrying a green boy. Margaery and the Tyrells would need to turn their back definitely on Tommen first...So Allyria? Beric Dondarion is dead now, in any case.

Is it a misconception on my part, or are there truly not so many young women from good family and of marriageable age?

I'm not sure on Ned Dayne's location. Is he still traveling with the Brother Hood? In that case, he's with Uncat. Their 'talks' might be interesting, though I doubt that Ned would dare tell her about how her late husband had a child by Wylla the wet-nurse...that's just begging for a hanging.

If Allyria is Brandon's, might Brandon have had another 'errant' in the south, besides meeting Cat in Riverrun, and later chasing after Lyanna? Could Ashara have been in Kingslanding when Brandon arrived, does that fit the timeline? Because if she was pregnant with his child, by the time he demanded Rhaegar come out and die, then Ashara would have had a rather very good reason for fleeing Kinsglanding - it was rumored she had a something with a Stark, so Aerys in his mad wisdom, could have taken her as 'hostage', or killed her.

I don't see Ashara abandoning her own daughter in favor for plotting to put Aegon on the throne. Especially since the Dornish are more accepting of bastards. So if Allyria is Brandon’s daughter, IMO it makes sense that Ashara is truly dead.

If Ashara is Lemore, however...what about a Gregor Clegane connection to Ashara? Was the Mountain at the tourney? Gerold Dayne has a tooth against Lannisters. Gregor is a Lannister beast. Elia was raped by Gregor, and her children killed by him. Ned Stark send Beric Dondarrion and his squire Ned Dayne to look for Clegane...in a roud-about way there is a Clegane/Stark/Dayne connection. Also...I like the idea of the hound = gravedigger, and if Ashara lived after having been dishonored horribly by Gregor, her becoming a Septa fits the same kind of 're-birth' arc.

Is High Hermitage not just a 'location' but also some kind of religious sanctuary? For that matter, where did Ned find Silent Sisters?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not really relevant to the current discussion, but I wanted to comment on the idea that ASOIAF would be just as awesome if R+L=J turns out to be false. I think that, in the heated debate over whether this-or-that passage from the books supports the theory, people have kind of overlooked that the very fact that R+L=J is even potentially relevant to understanding the intended nuances of so much of GRRM's writing means that Jon Snow's parents proving to be any other couple at this late date would also remove an entire layer of richness from the text.

<snip>

Finally a new contribution based on a strong textual analysis and very aware of the structural quality of the narrative. People discussing literature and forgetting its constructs drive me nuts. There is the author's intent to be taken into account. His careful planning and building. A logistics of the narrative structure that can't be eluded. The passages you quoted are enlightening and many more could be integrated by and into your analysis, from the (apparently out of the blue) Elder Brother's remark about the wait for the seventh ruby to the long allegorical passages in Oldstones. From the steady recurrence of the ice/fire-cold/hot dichotomy in Jon's chapters to the endless combinations of the thematic concept of the promise throughout the saga.

Thank you for outlining so brilliantly the 'body and soul' of our work on this thread (recurrent speed bumps apart LOL).

Plus, there is this parallel of a special boy brought up by his uncle in ignorance of who his parents truly were.

Exactly. This element being the core of the parallel imho.

Wylla is mentioned twice from two different sources, her being the mother fits with the timeline, and Arya is probably going to get to Jon at the Wall after leaving Braavos and when they meet up again she'll say "Wylla is your mother". So like George promised, Jon will find out the truth of his parentage

Revelation leading to the loudest collective gasp of history of literature. Undoubtedly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading your posts reminded me of a few other similarities between Jon Snow and Luke Skywalker and the ASOIAF/Star Wars worlds. (This is of course assuming R+L=J)

-Both were born from lineages with strong preternatural powers; the Skywalkers are naturally strong in the force, have the power of precognition/the Targaryen's are dragon lords and some also have the power of precognition.

-Both were the products of "secret/forbidden" relationships with each one having a parent who was a high ranking royal. In Jon's case, it was his father; in Luke's case, his mother.

-Both of their mothers died in childbirth.

-Both were born in secret and hidden away to be raised in obscurity for their protection, ignorant of their true nature and parentage.

-Both were raised/mentored under the watchful eye of two honorable knights, Ned Stark and Obi Wan Kenobi (pseudo-father figures) who know the truth about their identity (come to think of it, Maester Aemon has a very Obi Wan Kenobi feel to him too).

-Both join monastic knight orders.

- Like the concept of TPTWP in ASOIAF, the Jedi's in Star Wars also have an ancient prophecy of a "Chosen One," a Jedi Knight so strong in the force that he can bring balance to it's two opposing sides (the light & dark sides, a very similar concept to fire & ice). Both Jon & Luke's father's were originally to be these "promised ones," before their sons.

-When Anakin discovered as a child on Tatooine by young Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon Jinn they

are impressed with how naturally strong he is in the force. Qui-Gon Jin becomes convinced that

Anakin is the Choosen One of the prophecy and he brings him to the Jedi Council to proclaim him

as such and to train him as a Jedi so he can fulfill his destiny (training as a knight to fulfill a

prophecy; sound familar?

Unfortunatley Anakin does not initially live up to his full potential and takes a brief detour to the dark side in the guise of Darth Vader. Ultimately, it was his son Luke who turned out to be Jedi to fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force (though it should be noted that his father played a vital role by laying the groundwork for this and ultimately redeems himself by killing the Emperor). We still don't know enough about Rhaegar or Jon's ultimate fate, but the similarities are interesting.

Excellent analysis of the parallels between Star Wars and ASoIAF (I hope George Lucas/ Disney isn't reading this and thinking about putting in a lawsuit claim!).

ETA: Also, a belated kudos to your earlier post, Yeade. One of the most analytical and allegorical posts (not to mention beautifully written!) I have ever read :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wylla is mentioned twice from two different sources, her being the mother fits with the timeline, and Arya is probably going to get to Jon at the Wall after leaving Braavos and when they meet up again she'll say "Wylla is your mother". So like George promised, Jon will find out the truth of his parentage

Maybe you are right, but can you offer an explanation as to why Jon was not told this before? What is with all the secrecy? Apart from being mentioned twice as a potential mother, is there any other circumstantial evidence, corrooborative textual statements or theories that can be offered up in support of this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Brandon could be the common denominator, though I think Robert, really is just as likely. Robert and Ned grew up like brothers, after all.

I like the idea that Allyria is Brandon's daughter, but I'm not sure what it would add to the story, besides muddling waters... admittedly, that might be a sufficient raison d'être for Allyria.

But theoretically, Allyria would be the first (?) born daughter of the eldest son - so could we expect the Daynes to challenge Sansa's claim on Winterfell?

Thinking about it, I really don't believe that Jon will ever have the chance to become King in the North - but even if he did, I don't see him taking up that title as long as Stannis lives. Having two different Kings up north, plus Boltons/Freys would just be stupid, and weaken the north even more...anyway, by the time he's ‘healed’ (unless he’s really dead.) Rickon might be back on the screen to be used by Manderly. Even if Rickon is not there, Sansa might be, unless she stays Alayne a while longer.

So with only Rickon as a contender to the North, might Allyria and the Daynes, press her claim? I've always wondered who Aegon could marry, if not Dany. Sansa/Alayne would be a good party. Arianne as well, though I doubt she'd be interested in marrying a green boy. Margaery and the Tyrells would need to turn their back definitely on Tommen first...So Allyria? Beric Dondarion is dead now, in any case.

Is it a misconception on my part, or are there truly not so many young women from good family and of marriageable age?

I'm not sure on Ned Dayne's location. Is he still traveling with the Brother Hood? In that case, he's with Uncat. Their 'talks' might be interesting, though I doubt that Ned would dare tell her about how her late husband had a child by Wylla the wet-nurse...that's just begging for a hanging.

If Allyria is Brandon's, might Brandon have had another 'errant' in the south, besides meeting Cat in Riverrun, and later chasing after Lyanna? Could Ashara have been in Kingslanding when Brandon arrived, does that fit the timeline? Because if she was pregnant with his child, by the time he demanded Rhaegar come out and die, then Ashara would have had a rather very good reason for fleeing Kinsglanding - it was rumored she had a something with a Stark, so Aerys in his mad wisdom, could have taken her as 'hostage', or killed her.

I don't see Ashara abandoning her own daughter in favor for plotting to put Aegon on the throne. Especially since the Dornish are more accepting of bastards. So if Allyria is Brandon’s daughter, IMO it makes sense that Ashara is truly dead.

If Ashara is Lemore, however...what about a Gregor Clegane connection to Ashara? Was the Mountain at the tourney? Gerold Dayne has a tooth against Lannisters. Gregor is a Lannister beast. Elia was raped by Gregor, and her children killed by him. Ned Stark send Beric Dondarrion and his squire Ned Dayne to look for Clegane...in a roud-about way there is a Clegane/Stark/Dayne connection. Also...I like the idea of the hound = gravedigger, and if Ashara lived after having been dishonored horribly by Gregor, her becoming a Septa fits the same kind of 're-birth' arc.

Is High Hermitage not just a 'location' but also some kind of religious sanctuary? For that matter, where did Ned find Silent Sisters?

In terms of the signigicance of Allyria, her existance would draw a upon the themes of survival, and perhaps draws a parallel between the Blackfyres and the Starks in regards of survival through the female line.

Right now, survival, (as we understand it), through the male line is dubious with Bran unable to reproduce and the possibility of Rickon being unsuitable, and perhaps ultimately turning his back on Winterfell.

She may also play a significant role should Arya ever end up in Dorne, and given that I think the naming of the Direwolves are a nod to the Stark destiny, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Arya does end up in Dorne.

I also don't think the Daynes could challenge Sansa because by the laws of Westeros, Allyria is a bastard, and Brandon was never the lord of Winterfell, so the title passed to Ned. Making that fight at that point doesn't help Allyrias prospects and I would imagine those conversations would have already been had regarding Asharas own standing.

And in terms of reparations and protocol to House Dayne, Ned could have initially been put forward to pay for what Brandon did, but then Brandon was killed and Ned had to take over yet another of Brandons obligations- Cat.

"it was all for him, even you.....

And thus Ned inherits Brandons life.

A couple of random observations on the story line.

I totally agree with the poster "Yeade," on simplicity.

I do enjoy talking possibilities and theories, but that post just snapped me back to what really makes a goods story, and sometimes less is best. Now I have confidence that whatever Martin does, he will do it well, but it is true that overuse of of plot devices like the "twist," baby swaps, and dead people not staying dead can cut to the credibility of the structure of the story, and then conflating them on top of it doesn't help either. And you are right, Ashara, if she is still alive, leaving her own child to go raise another doesn't make sense.

But, what might make sense is after all Ashara has been through, going off in search of answers and trying to find peace much like the Hound, is more believable to me. She leaves her child in the care of her parents, knowing she will be safe and decides to pursue a mystic route. I know the series is different from the book, but the masked woman who warns Jorah to watch over Dany, I think suggests that she would be more likely the character Ashara given the Daynes own mythic and mysterious origins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize in advance for being too lazy to read the previous threads, as it would be like reading another book.

(Regarding Jon's legitimacy)

How could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? So far, I've been under the impression that marriage in Westeros is a public affair (and an especially big deal with princes), since vows are said "In the sight of gods and men." Rhaegar would've known that nobody would take his son for a prince unless it was common knowledge that he was married to Lyanna. And if it was common knowledge, it would have been mentioned by now. I think we can all agree that nobody has acknowledged a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize in advance for being too lazy to read the previous threads, as it would be like reading another book.

(Regarding Jon's legitimacy)

How could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? So far, I've been under the impression that marriage in Westeros is a public affair (and an especially big deal with princes), since vows are said "In the sight of gods and men." Rhaegar would've known that nobody would take his son for a prince unless it was common knowledge that he was married to Lyanna. And if it was common knowledge, it would have been mentioned by now. I think we can all agree that nobody has acknowledged a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

If they did marry, he had two of the most honourable and respected men of Westeros as witnesses, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. Their word would carry weight, had they lived.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize in advance for being too lazy to read the previous threads, as it would be like reading another book.

(Regarding Jon's legitimacy)

How could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? So far, I've been under the impression that marriage in Westeros is a public affair (and an especially big deal with princes), since vows are said "In the sight of gods and men." Rhaegar would've known that nobody would take his son for a prince unless it was common knowledge that he was married to Lyanna. And if it was common knowledge, it would have been mentioned by now. I think we can all agree that nobody has acknowledged a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That is answered on page one of most every thread. But, I will quote the relevant part here, for you.
Reference guide

. . .

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

. . .

So, those men, the Kingsguard are certainly witness to the marriage, does everyone have to be a witness to ensure validity of a marriage? The answer is that a select few witnesses are necessary for any marriage to be legal, and not all of Westeros needs to be witness. So, no it does not need to be common knowledge. For inheritance purposes there may need to be proof of one kind or another, and it is likely to be in Lyanna's tomb, if it is needed.

Ygrain == :ninja:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading your posts reminded me of a few other similarities between Jon Snow and Luke Skywalker and the ASOIAF/Star Wars worlds. (This is of course assuming R+L=J)

-Both were born from lineages with strong preternatural powers; the Skywalkers are naturally strong in the force, have the power of precognition/the Targaryen's are dragon lords and some also have the power of precognition.

-Both were the products of "secret/forbidden" relationships with each one having a parent who was a high ranking royal. In Jon's case, it was his father; in Luke's case, his mother.

-Both of their mothers died in childbirth.

-Both were born in secret and hidden away to be raised in obscurity for their protection, ignorant of their true nature and parentage.

-Both were raised/mentored under the watchful eye of two honorable knights, Ned Stark and Obi Wan Kenobi (pseudo-father figures) who know the truth about their identity (come to think of it, Maester Aemon has a very Obi Wan Kenobi feel to him too).

-Both join monastic knight orders.

- Like the concept of TPTWP in ASOIAF, the Jedi's in Star Wars also have an ancient prophecy of a "Chosen One," a Jedi Knight so strong in the force that he can bring balance to it's two opposing sides (the light & dark sides, a very similar concept to fire & ice). Both Jon & Luke's father's were originally to be these "promised ones," before their sons.

-When Anakin discovered as a child on Tatooine by young Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon Jinn they

are impressed with how naturally strong he is in the force. Qui-Gon Jin becomes convinced that

Anakin is the Choosen One of the prophecy and he brings him to the Jedi Council to proclaim him

as such and to train him as a Jedi so he can fulfill his destiny (training as a knight to fulfill a

prophecy; sound familar?

Unfortunatley Anakin does not initially live up to his full potential and takes a brief detour to the dark side in the guise of Darth Vader. Ultimately, it was his son Luke who turned out to be Jedi to fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force (though it should be noted that his father played a vital role by laying the groundwork for this and ultimately redeems himself by killing the Emperor). We still don't know enough about Rhaegar or Jon's ultimate fate, but the similarities are interesting.

Maybe Bran will see the truth from the other side via the Weirwood network.. and share it with Jon as Obi Won did from the other side to Luke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize in advance for being too lazy to read the previous threads, as it would be like reading another book.

(Regarding Jon's legitimacy)

How could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? So far, I've been under the impression that marriage in Westeros is a public affair (and an especially big deal with princes), since vows are said "In the sight of gods and men." Rhaegar would've known that nobody would take his son for a prince unless it was common knowledge that he was married to Lyanna. And if it was common knowledge, it would have been mentioned by now. I think we can all agree that nobody has acknowledged a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Well, we know that the Targeryans had practised polygamy, so that is a possible yet, by no means conclusive theory as to how they could have married.

Another theory which was discussed by Alia and myself during the last thread was that it may have been possible that Rhaegar was intending to set Elia aside, though please understand that this is a controversial theory and not the overriding consensus by many fans at present. However, you might like to look at the arguments for this theory on these threads:

http://asoiaf.wester...r-and-lancelot/

http://asoiaf.wester...et-seen-posted/

As Alia noted during the last post, Cersei showed signs of fearing being set aside by Robert (thus potentially insinuating that a precedent may have been set), and there were also questions raised as to why Aerys chose to hold her and the two children as hostages for bargaining power prior to the sack of Kings Landing.

No, there is no corroborative proof of an acknowledged marriage at this point in time, however we do not know what yet might be revealed - perhaps there were witnesses to the marriage, or there could be a wedding cloak lying about somewhere. However, it is entirely possible that they could have married in the sight of Gods and some (if, not a lot of) men.

Also, it is entirely possible that there might be proof of Jon's parentage and/ or Lyanna and Rhaegar's wedding lying within the crypts of Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they did marry, he had two of the most honourable and respected men of Westeros as witnesses, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. Their word would carry weight, had they lived.

I seriously doubt that. Knights sworn to protect the king (basically royalty themselves) most likely would not be trusted among the people if they just came out and said, "Hey everybody, I know you all are aware that Prince Rhaegar was already married, but when you weren't looking he married another woman, and here is their son."

That is answered on page one of most every thread. But, I will quote the relevant part here, for you.

I've already read that. Not an answer to my question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've already read that. Not an answer to my question.

It is an answer to your question:

How could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? So far, I've been under the impression that marriage in Westeros is a public affair (and an especially big deal with princes), since vows are said "In the sight of gods and men." Rhaegar would've known that nobody would take his son for a prince unless it was common knowledge that he was married to Lyanna. And if it was common knowledge, it would have been mentioned by now. I think we can all agree that nobody has acknowledged a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Simply put, Rhaegar can legally marry as many times as he wishes, since the Targaryens practiced polygamy. And, you go on to allude that everyone needs to recognize the marriage (not the question), and I spell it out, that at least two Kingsguard, viewed by Ned as a shining example of honor for the world, witnessed and acknowledged the marriage. Those were all that mattered on the point.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seriously doubt that. Knights sworn to protect the king (basically royalty themselves) most likely would not be trusted among the people if they just came out and said, "Hey everybody, I know you all are aware that Prince Rhaegar was already married, but when you weren't looking he married another woman, and here is their son."

Among what people? Smallfolk? It's not like their opinon matters. Nobles? For them, these KG are living legends and their word goes without questioning, exactly like the word of Eddard Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...