R+L=J v. 57

[Eira Seren]

By happy ending, I don't really mean happy ending... I mean for everything to fall into place like that. The whole thing about Bran warging into someone just to inform everybody, or Jon warging into Ghost and being revived somehow, and eventually be revealed as the rightful King. To me, it just seems out of place. I can agree with the Sansa and Rickon thing though.

I agree that there are too many ways the reveal could seem too contrived. But something does have to fall into place, this is fiction and the readers are expecting the basic conventions to be observed and satisfied. I'm not sure we're all demanding 'happy' endings, but after all the buildup created by GRRM, we are hoping for some reasonable resolution.

[Greymoon]

By happy ending, I don't really mean happy ending... I mean for everything to fall into place like that. The whole thing about Bran warging into someone just to inform everybody, or Jon warging into Ghost and being revived somehow, and eventually be revealed as the rightful King. To me, it just seems out of place. I can agree with the Sansa and Rickon thing though.

Oh. Alright then. I don't like this theory about Bran either, and I’d prefer for Jon to survive not die. But if he's resurrected somehow, I hope it's the wildlings that are the cause of it, and not Melisandre. I think some people don't like the L+R= J theory, because they're afraid that Jon will end up as the 'one true hero'. But as you've pointed out, this doesn't really fit GRRM's writing. I think L+R=J has much more potential for causing Jon harm, than for setting the premises of a happy ending.

[Jory Cassel]

It's clear that it's down to opinion at this point. You're not the least bit swayed by my view, and while I don't view your ideas as impossible, I do think they're unlikely. I'll leave it at that to save page space.

Which ideas, exactly? Feel free to point out anything in my post that's unfounded or unreasonable and only a matter of opinion.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Which ideas, exactly? Feel free to point out anything in my post that's unfounded or unreasonable and only a matter of opinion.

I didn't say "only" a matter of opinion. I said I think it's unlikely. You have reasons to believe what you do, as well as I do. The facts have been laid out and we've speculated on the outcome. You think Jon will be legitimized as a prince, and I don't. However, I do believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I'm aware of the promise, but I think it was nothing more than to keep Jon's parentage a secret. And wasn't Dark Sister last carried by Bloodraven? How would Lyanna get it, and why would she tell Ned to put it in her tomb?

[Jon Blackfyre]

There's been a lot of discussion about this on previous threads. If you got married in a sept, you would need a Septon, etc. But in the north all you need is a godswood and and a couple of witnesses. There are plenty of godswoods in the north, if that is where Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar. I'm sure there was also one at Harrenhal, where it's been speculated that Lyanna may have remained for a time following the Tourney. There's also a rather significant one quite nearby, but surely the idea of them marrying there is just my own wishful thinking.

I've been thinking this and actually said a similar thing on the GNC thread the other day.

I think Bran is going to see something through the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces that will help confirm R+L=J, and then it will be seconded by Howland Reed.

Lyanna and Rhaegar may have gone to the Isle after the tourney at Harrenhall and that is where they disappered for while, were possibly married there, and may have spoken of the prophecy of the "dragon having three heads" and the need for another child.

Just a hunch I've had, I'm sure others have had as well, but with Bran's newfound tree time traveling telepathy vision it makes a lot of sense for him to see something important happen on an island FULL OF WEIRWOODS that was in the middle of the lake that Rhaegar and Lyanna were staying at when they met.

[Ben Blackfysh]

I've been thinking this and actually said a similar thing on the GNC thread the other day.

I think Bran is going to see something through the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces that will help confirm R+L=J, and then it will be seconded by Howland Reed.

Lyanna and Rhaegar may have gone to the Isle after the tourney at Harrenhall and tht is where the disappered for while, were possibly married there, and may have spoken of the prophecy of the "dragon having three heads" and the need for another child.

Just a hunch I've had, I'm sure others have had as well, but with Bran's newfound tree time traveling telepathy vision it makes a lot of sense for him to see something important happen on an island FULL OF WEIRWOODS that was in the middle of the lake that Rhaegar and Lyanna were staying at when they met.

That makes more sense than a lot of theories I've heard. But if and how Jon will emerge as a king, I have no idea.

[Jon Blackfyre]

That makes more sense than a lot of theories I've heard. But if and how Jon will emerge as a king, I have no idea.

I also believe he never will. It will be revealed he is the rightful king, he will turn it down just like he turned down Winterfell, and will end up sacrifcing himself Last Hero style to save the realm.

He's my favorite character so I don't want him to die, but i just see it playing out that way.

[sabrecmc]

I've been thinking this and actually said a similar thing on the GNC thread the other day.

I think Bran is going to see something through the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces that will help confirm R+L=J, and then it will be seconded by Howland Reed.

Lyanna and Rhaegar may have gone to the Isle after the tourney at Harrenhall and tht is where the disappered for while, were possibly married there, and may have spoken of the prophecy of the "dragon having three heads" and the need for another child.

Just a hunch I've had, I'm sure others have had as well, but with Bran's newfound tree time traveling telepathy vision it makes a lot of sense for him to see something important happen on an island FULL OF WEIRWOODS that was in the middle of the lake that Rhaegar and Lyanna were staying at when they met.

I still say it will turn out that Random Septon Meribald, who has been going around marrying folks for 40 years, married R&L. That gets R's Septon and if they have the ceremony in front of a weirwood, that takes care of L's tradition. Maybe Bran sees the wedding ceremony and mentions the barefoot septon and smell of oranges or something to clue the reader in...??? I don't know, but I think that would tie things up nicely. Maybe its too neat.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I still say it will turn out that Random Septon Meribald, who has been going around marrying folks for 40 years, married R&L. That gets R's Septon and if they have the ceremony in front of a weirwood, that takes care of L's tradition. Maybe Bran sees the wedding ceremony and mentions the barefoot septon and smell of oranges or something to clue the reader in...??? I don't know, but I think that would tie things up nicely. Maybe its too neat.

Hey why not, if he was at Harrnehall for the tourney and they said "hey Septon, come with us out to the Isle, we need your help with something" why would he say no to the crown prince and a highborn lady?

but i'm betting the dog wasn;t there to witness it... haha

[Jory Cassel]

I didn't say "only" a matter of opinion. I said I think it's unlikely. You have reasons to believe what you do, as well as I do. The facts have been laid out and we've speculated on the outcome. You think Jon will be legitimized as a prince, and I don't. However, I do believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I'm aware of the promise, but I think it was nothing more than to keep Jon's parentage a secret. And wasn't Dark Sister last carried by Bloodraven? How would Lyanna get it, and why would she tell Ned to put it in her tomb?

You must have misunderstood, I don't, or rather, I don't know, even if the option is there, I don't firmly believe in it, and I never said I did. I was merely pointing out which reasons used by you to exclude this scenario were invalid, and thus the facts your speculation was based on.

And I don't believe that Dark Sister is in the tomb, it might be, though. Or a marriage cloak. Or something else with significance. And although it was Bloodraven who carried it last, he was imprisoned and sent to the wall, maybe he was aloud to take Dark Sister with him, maybe/probably not.

And Dark Sister is only one of several options, how/why do you exclude the possibility that there might be something hidden in the crypts? It's not a certainty, but Jon's dreams and Lyanna's "promises" (behold the plural!) make a it viable option, imo.

And to me, it's also very plausible that Lyanna did not only ask Ned to raise Jon, but to tell Jon about his true parentage in time, after all as a mother she probably did not want Jon to live his life oblivious in regard to who his mother was (this would explain why Ned ponders on "broken promises" while in the black cells).

And a artifact relating to Rhaegar/Targaryens in Lyanna's tomb would be just the thing. Again, I am not declaring it a certainty, I simply think it's wrong to prematurely eliminate said possibilty for invalid reasons.

Oh, and out of curiosity, what do you think were/was the other promise(s)? A single one does not cut it ;)

[Twinslayer]

I have a couple of random thoughts on the most recent discussion.

One is that Barristan's musings about Ashara Dayne are pretty vague. It is hard to say there is only one right way to interpret them. For what it is worth, though, there is a good chance he means that Ashara was intimate, voluntarily, with one of the Starks.

She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings.

This may meanthere was no point in telling her how he felt, due to his vow of celibacy, because if he had it would lead to frustration or a broken vow.

No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

This may mean that if he told her how he felt, she would have viewed him as a potential mate or at least a potential partner. If she viewed him that way, she might have turned to him ("instead of Stark") to do . . . what mates/partners do.

If that is right, the question is which Stark? One theory I have seen and like is that "Stark" refers to Lord Stark (the way Aerys is "Targaryen" and Rhaegar is "Prince Rhaegar," of the way Ygritte refers to "the" Stark of Winterfell). That points to Ned, since Brandon was never Lord Stark, and it would explain the rumour that Ned and Ashara fell in love at the ToH.

The other has to do with something being hidden in the Winterfell crypts that would prove R+L=J. I like the theory that there is a dragon egg, since Targs put one in every baby's crib. The only catch is when Robert goes to Winterfell, Ned seems pleasantly surprised that Robert wants to visit Lyanna's crypt and they go down right away. If he is hiding the proof of R+L=J in that crypt, wouldn't he want to keep Robert far away from it? What if Robert asked to open it up so he could see the bones (like when Cat spent the night praying over Ned's bones)?

[Greymoon]

I have a couple of random thoughts on the most recent discussion.

One is that Barristan's musings about Ashara Dayne are pretty vague. It is hard to say there is only one right way to interpret them. For what it is worth, though, there is a good chance he means that Ashara was intimate, voluntarily, with one of the Starks.

This may meanthere was no point in telling her how he felt, due to his vow of celibacy, because if he had it would lead to frustration or a broken vow.

This may mean that if he told her how he felt, she would have viewed him as a potential mate or at least a potential partner. If she viewed him that way, she might have turned to him ("instead of Stark") to do . . . what mates/partners do.

If that is right, the question is which Stark? One theory I have seen and like is that "Stark" refers to Lord Stark (the way Aerys is "Targaryen" and Rhaegar is "Prince Rhaegar," of the way Ygritte refers to "the" Stark of Winterfell). That points to Ned, since Brandon was never Lord Stark, and it would explain the rumour that Ned and Ashara fell in love at the ToH.

The other has to do with something being hidden in the Winterfell crypts that would prove R+L=J. I like the theory that there is a dragon egg, since Targs put one in every baby's crib. The only catch is when Robert goes to Winterfell, Ned seems pleasantly surprised that Robert wants to visit Lyanna's crypt and they go down right away. If he is hiding the proof of R+L=J in that crypt, wouldn't he want to keep Robert far away from it? What if Robert asked to open it up so he could see the bones (like when Cat spent the night praying over Ned's bones)?

It's been speculated that looked to me instead of Stark, means that Ashara sought justice for the dishonor that was done her, and turned to a Stark as a mediator/conciliator in the conflict/misunderstanding/disagreement. I agree with this perspective. Accordingly, Barristan does not say that it was a Stark who dishonored Ashara. The last candidates that have been considered for having dishonored her include Brandon, Aerys, Robert.

I don't know why, but it seems few people believe Ned had anything to do with Ashara...though, I'd like to think that Ned did have some flaws and a love affair.

[Twinslayer]

It's been speculated that looked to me instead of Stark, means that Ashara sought justice for the dishonor that was done her, and turned to a Stark as a mediator/conciliator in the conflict/misunderstanding/disagreement. I agree with this perspective. Accordingly, Barristan does not say that it was a Stark who dishonored Ashara. The last candidates that have been considered for having dishonored her include Brandon, Aerys, Robert.

I don't know why, but it seems few people believe Ned had anything to do with Ashara...though, I'd like to think that Ned did have some flaws and a love affair.

You might be right. If you are, how does Barristan's vow of celibacy prevent him from acting as the mediator/conciliator?

[MtnLion]

You might be right. If you are, how does Barristan's vow of celibacy prevent him from acting as the mediator/conciliator?

I don't believe that is the reason that he mentions his vow. He mentions it because he does not pursue a normal relationship with Ashara because of his vow. So, it would do no good at all to express his love for her, as they could not have a normal relationship. On the other hand when she needs help, she doesn't approach him because she does not know about his feelings towards her.

[Twinslayer]

I don't believe that is the reason that he mentions his vow. He mentions it because he does not pursue a normal relationship with Ashara because of his vow. So, it would do no good at all to express his love for her, as they could not have a normal relationship. On the other hand when she needs help, she doesn't approach him because she does not know about his feelings towards her.

Okay. That could very well be right.

[lareine]

Don't forget the little green men. Yoda=Howland Reed. Remember it was Yoda living in a "swamp" who confirmed to Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader was his natural father. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon Snow makes a pilgrimage to swamp to have the confirmation was of his true parentage by Howland Reed.

Thank you! I'm embarrassed to admit it here, but I'm probably more familiar with the Star Wars universe; the universe of ASOIAF is much newer to me.

EXCELLENT point on the little green men who live in swamps! That's really a good catch :thumbsup:

Now if Lightbringer does turn out to be a literal sword made of glowing red fire, than Jon will also be wielding a "light" saber :P

[A Crow Come Over]

While agree the story is still awesome no matter how Jon's true parentage shakes out, why do you say "those who blindly accept R+L=J as correct?"

Why is it blindly following when there is so much evidence pointing towards it? It's not like people that think its fact are lemmings walking off a cliff, it's a pretty well thought out and developed concept with legs to stand on at this point.

Blindly insinuates that we're doing so without evidence or examination, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, the aggregation of clues and the sheer time invested in this theory make people more suspicious of it than they should be and make them think it's more obvious than it really is.

Then I'm obviously not referring to either one of you then, I simply answered a question and was not pointing any fingers or making accusations.

[Ygrain]

The other has to do with something being hidden in the Winterfell crypts that would prove R+L=J. I like the theory that there is a dragon egg, since Targs put one in every baby's crib. The only catch is when Robert goes to Winterfell, Ned seems pleasantly surprised that Robert wants to visit Lyanna's crypt and they go down right away. If he is hiding the proof of R+L=J in that crypt, wouldn't he want to keep Robert far away from it? What if Robert asked to open it up so he could see the bones (like when Cat spent the night praying over Ned's bones)?

That's a huge difference, because Ned wasn't buried yet. You don't open a toomb after the person is buried, that's a desecration. There is no way anyone would ever request that.

Now if Lightbringer does turn out to be a literal sword made of glowing red fire, than Jon will also be wielding a "light" saber :P

Lol, another great catch :D

[FrozenFire3]

I still say it will turn out that Random Septon Meribald, who has been going around marrying folks for 40 years, married R&L.

I strongly suspect that too, especially because there is no such thing as 'random' in Martin narrative. As well-demonstrated by 226 direct mentions of a certain character dead for 15 years at the beginning of the saga ;) If a character is introduced in such a grand style and/or insisted upon, chance is Martin is not yet done with him/her LOL

[Ygrain]

I strongly suspect that too, especially because there is no such thing as 'random' in Martin narrative. As well-demonstrated by 226 direct mentions of a certain character dead for 15 years at the beginning of the saga ;) If a character is introduced in such a grand style and/or insisted upon, chance is Martin is not yet done with him/her LOL

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to go off-topic: there is truly nothing random, and things are cyclical. I'm... mindblown. I don't think I've seen this mentioned anywhere, so I thought I would share here:

It has been argued that at the Purple Wedding, there had to be a signal for Marge to know not to drink from the chalice any more but no-one ever mentioned what the signal might be. I think it was... Rains of Castamere. Just before Tyrion pours new wine for Joffrey, Olenna makes a sarcastic remark that she hasn't heard the song in a while. What better signal to start the killing at a wedding might there be?

In retrospect, it seems so obvious... I wonder how many other such hints we are still missing.