If the GNC is real & its as much about "the Old gods" as it is about Northern Lands & Titles...

[Capon Breath]

EDIT : Title is a hypothesis to the email. I'm not suggests that either the GNC is real (but i'd like it to be) or that its as much about the Old Gods etc etc. So I will struggle to justify that so best not to ask for proof, will avoid unneccesary thread derailment.

...Is there any chance part of the GNC could be to sacrifice either Stannis or possibly Mel to the Winterfell Weirwood?

This thought has just occurred to me so i've not come at it from an evidence int he text persepctive purely from a motivation & outcome perspective.

North Ravaged by War

"Old Gods" weakened in the South & at the Wall by Mell burning Weirwoods

Ancient Power of the Starks destroyed

Ancient Order of the Nights Watch in turmoil.

Now I'm a supersticious & fiercly "Northern" Wull/ Liddle / Flint / [insert Northern house here] trapped in a Snowstorm i think is sent by the gods trying to rescue the Ancient seat of House Stark being led by a R'Hllor worshipping Southron pretender that I dont really beleive in.

What better way to cement favour with the Old gods by feeding a bit of Kings blood / Firepriestess blood to the Hearttree in Winterfell?

We suspect the northern lords practiced human sacrifice from Brans visions.

It would be an interesting twist on the Northern Lords who up to this point I think a lot of people root for as Northerners are lovely & honourable aren't they.

Good to get peoples views....?

[Mad Monkey]

If they murdered Stannis or Mel, why would Stannis's southern lords continue to help them liberate Winterfell and expel the Boltons and Freys? If the northmen betray the only allies they have like that, they would ironically create the same situation that Roose Bolton is in according to the GNC theory -- encircled on all sides by people who despise and resent their betrayal.

[brut]

I don't really see why GNC would have needs to sacrifice Stannis if they are victorious in reaching their mutual goal of liberating the Winterfell. After all, joining forces was a voluntary act, and no one forced the Clans or Northerners to assist Stannis. Also, in the background, GNC is aware of certain level of support Stannis receives from Jon, which again works in support of the genuine alliance.

Mel, on the other side, may be viewed as a foreign element hostile to the North and the Old Gods, so I wouldn't vouch for her.

[Capon Breath]

If they murdered Stannis or Mel, why would Stannis's southern lords continue to help them liberate Winterfell and expel the Boltons and Freys? If the northmen betray the only allies they have like that, they would ironically create the same situation that Roose Bolton is in according to the GNC theory -- encircled on all sides by people who despise and resent their betrayal.

I'm suggesting they might consider it post liberating Winterfell - if thats where they do the sacrifice they need to have secured it first.

I think the inetersting dynamic is the different motives.

Stannis wants the Iron Throne

The north just wants independent rule.

If Stannis is dead the IT would most likely fall into Tyrell hands at the moment (depending on what Aegon does of course) I don't think the Tyrells care enough about the North to do anything about it. I'm not sure it's that risky a move for the GNC....?

[Capon Breath]

I don't really see why GNC would have needs to sacrifice Stannis if they are victorious in reaching their mutual goal of liberating the Winterfell. After all, joining forces was a voluntary act, and no one forced the Clans or Northerners to assist Stannis. Also, in the background, GNC is aware of certain level of support Stannis receives from Jon, which again works in support of the genuine alliance.

Mel, on the other side, may be viewed as a foreign element hostile to the North and the Old Gods, so I wouldn't vouch for her.

As above, i'm not sure liberating Winterfell is a Mutual Goal, or rather it is but after that the GNC dont have the sames goals as Stannis.

Cast Iron certainty - Stannis will want the Northern Lords to march south & win him the IT.

Second Cast Iron Certainty - If Stannis did somehow with the IT without the Northerners he would care enough about the North to want them as part of his realm.

Arguably at this point Stannis is the worst King for the North as he is probably the only would who would take significnat exception to their independent rule.

NOTE - Clearly i'm making a ton of assumptions here but for the sake of the debate worth rolling with.

[brut]

I'm glad you agree that taking Winterfell is in interest of Stannis and the GNC. What happens after that is up to debate. It may all be for naught, as the assault fails, and everyone including Stannis dies. Or, if they are victorious, the political reality will be different. I foresee two broader scenarios:

1. Stan's leadership position strengtheners as he is viewed to have successfully accomplished the campaign against Bolton/Frey alliance, or

2. Stan is given a cold shoulder and the clear message that the North has reached its goals, and no further actions will be undertaken in support of his Iron Throne claim.

In either case, it will be extremely important in what circumstances and under what conditions the Stark rule is restored, as Stannis will keep this instrument close at disposal. If it is Rickon returning with Davos, then Stannis will probably be naming Rickon the Lord of Winterfell, but may assign the Warden title to someone else capable of supporting his cause further. Or, if it is Benjen, then he is able to relieve him of the NW duty under promise of continuous support to the IT claim.

[Mad Monkey]

It wouldn't just be risky but it would be highly unethical and somewhat irresponsible. The GNC crowd knows that Stannis respects the North and their chosen leaders, the Starks of Winterfell. He is closely aligned with Jon Snow, who may be Robb's heir; he is also fighting to rescue Arya Stark from Winterfell and has expended his own resources removing the ironborn from the North and repelling wildling invasions from the North. Stannis is an honorable, dependable, and trustworthy ally -- the kind of person that Ned would prefer to work with if he had lived.

Betraying and executing him would be unethical -- it's basically a Frey move -- and it would mean that they would have to rely on the honesty and forbearance of the Lannisters and the Tyrells -- that is, the same coalition that murdered Eddard, Catelyn, and the Young Wolf.

So, really, it's a "devil you know" situation; they know what Stannis wants, they don't have any particular grudge against him personally. The same can't be said for King Tommen.

[Capon Breath]

It wouldn't just be risky but it would be highly unethical and somewhat irresponsible. The GNC crowd knows that Stannis respects the North and their chosen leaders, the Starks of Winterfell. He is closely aligned with Jon Snow, who may be Robb's heir; he is also fighting to rescue Arya Stark from Winterfell and has expended his own resources removing the ironborn from the North and repelling wildling invasions from the North. Stannis is an honorable, dependable, and trustworthy ally -- the kind of person that Ned would prefer to work with if he had lived.

Betraying and executing him would be unethical -- it's basically a Frey move -- and it would mean that they would have to rely on the honesty and forbearance of the Lannisters and the Tyrells -- that is, the same coalition that murdered Eddard, Catelyn, and the Young Wolf.

So, really, it's a "devil you know" situation; they know what Stannis wants, they don't have any particular grudge against him personally. The same can't be said for King Tommen.

Woah, this is this Stannis who wanted to kill Robb Stark to retain what's rightfully his? Based on the text you have to assume Stannis will not accept a independent North. If GNC are cool with bending the knee it's fine, if they are not i think there is a problem post the liberation of Winterfell.

I agree it would be a Cheap shot, I would say significantly less dishonourable than the Freys. It's essentially making an ally then changing sides, happens all the way through all the books without any real repercussions or everlasting stain on the honour of any house that does it.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Woah, this is this Stannis who wanted to kill Robb Stark to retain what's rightfully his? Based on the text you have to assume Stannis will not accept a independent North. If GNC are cool with bending the knee it's fine, if they are not i think there is a problem post the liberation of Winterfell.

I agree it would be a Cheap shot, I would say significantly less dishonourable than the Freys. It's essentially making an ally then changing sides, happens all the way through all the books without any real repercussions or everlasting stain on the honour of any house that does it.

That's Robb's fault IMHO. He should've contacted Stannis, and not let all of this King In The North stuff go to his head... The north was definitely never Robb's by right, even if might is right, he lost. Though I do see your point about his future decisions, just had to take up for Stannis lol. "He will break before he bends".

[Capon Breath]

That's Robb's fault IMHO. He should've contacted Stannis, and not let all of this King In The North stuff go to his head... The north was definitely never Robb's by right, even if might is right, he lost. Though I do see your point about his future decisions, just had to take up for Stannis lol. "He will break before he bends".

No worries, I'm Stannis for life, just thought it would be an interesting twist to the lovely Northerners, would they go this far? Kinda hard for them not to do something about the old god abusing Mel, even if they stop short ofnStannis.

[Mad Monkey]

Woah, this is this Stannis who wanted to kill Robb Stark to retain what's rightfully his? Based on the text you have to assume Stannis will not accept a independent North. If GNC are cool with bending the knee it's fine, if they are not i think there is a problem post the liberation of Winterfell.

Agreed. I'm not saying that this whole thing will be smooth sailing, if only because this is ASOIAF. However, they can understand and manage Stannis in a way that they can't manage Cersei Lannister or the Tyrells. If they did end up having to bend the knee, I think they would rather bend the knee to Stannis (whose only threats against Robb that I can remember were made in closed council and witnessed only by Melisandre and Davos during a leech ceremony -- it's not something that the average northman would know about) than the Lannisters who killed off most of the Stark family.

I agree it would be a Cheap shot, I would say significantly less dishonourable than the Freys. It's essentially making an ally then changing sides, happens all the way through all the books without any real repercussions or everlasting stain on the honour of any house that does it.

Yes, but think about who they're changing sides to. Killing Stannis helps the Lannisters -- ie, the people who sent the Boltons and the Freys to rule over them, the people who butchered Ned, Catelyn, and Robb. If the GNC wants an independent North, why not wind Stannis up and send him charging back to KL to bloody the Lannisters? From a purely strategic perspective, without even looking into morals, letting Stannis and Tommen drain off their strength and resources fighting each other only strengthens the North's position. It will be much easier to beat whoever wins that fight than to basically do the Lannisters work for them and weaken their own strength.

It's not about honor, it's about strategy. The northmen killing Stannis helps the Lannisters; it would be like Robb attacking Stannis and Renly in ACOK. While those two guys would eventually be obstacles, the Lannisters are his real foe and the more people fighting against them the better, even if they aren't 100% on his side.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I am not really proficient in the strategy idea of the North but I have wondered if the northmen would at least join up with Stannis to retake the Dreadfort and release the WF and northern prisoners and then perhaps move to the Riverlands to help the Riverlords remove the Freys at the Twins? Would the WF bannermen go that far south to restore and gain vengeance against the Freys? I thinnk Manderly might do this against the Freys with the help of the northern clans as long as Stannis did not burn WF's godswood or try to further force his red god down their throats. The Dreadfort is well stocked and WF has no provisions. I am wondering how the northmen will survive the winter let alone Stannis army unless they retake the Dreadfort for the food and fodder stores.