Bakker の Pacific Rim Job

[Kalbear]

We hear about it in ttt - that the skin spies are keepers of it. But little else.

[Madness]

On Gates:

It's always interesting how these threads develop in concert.

Somnambulist, a member at SA, had this to offer (on an unrelated topic - Judging Eye Reread - Questions and discussion):

I'm starting to lean in the direction that the possessors of the Judging Eye are, in fact, casting judgment and not just seeing judgment. There's a passage in WLW (in the infamous Library dream by Achamian) wherein the statement is made that reality is based on the principle of 'watcher and watched,' or something to that effect. To me, in regards to Earwa, that means reality is subjective to the watcher, and their own preconceptions of what reality is. Mimara grew up in the Three Seas where sorcerers are damned, and she was sold to a brothel where men abused her. What could be worse in her mind than a male sorcerer? Thus, she sees Achamian as this blasted, damned wreck when the eye opens, 'confirming' her own bias. This could go a ways to explaining the encounter with the wight in Cil-Aujas when she proclaims that she guards the gates (not sure how just yet, but it could be something). Like she's some kind of moral compass for the world.

As the thread has gone on, it seems to the few of us that this might actually simply explain the relationship between individuals and the Outside... some souls stand astride; women, the Cishaurim...

I offered that like Viramsata, the very World/Outside reality work to enact the subjective expectations of ensoulled beings; ultimate projection onto reality.

So in Mimara's case, with the Judging Eye, the Wight is the herring. He would be the metaphor for what it is Mimara actually does there, that is, cast her Subjective Frame onto the world.

Some wrenches remain: Sorweel because he knows next to nothing of Yatwer specifically, it seems, and the exact mechanisms of Chorae as Tears of God.

[Kalbear]

If that's the case, why would she see snakes as particularly good? Why would she be able to see the actual events that had damned Kosoter and the rest of the slog?

Why are her chapters written in the present tense?

Doesn't fly, IMO. We already know that the world is the least subjective place, the Outside the most subjective. We already know that Ciphrang and gods shape the Outside to their whims and have limited control over what they can do on Earwa.

[Sci-2]

I agree with Kalbear that Mimara isn't just projecting her personal beliefs onto reality - It's unlikely that she's damning people.

I do think her ability to actual see the fates of the damned, like she sees Galin pealed by demons, is bullshit though. Just comes off as way too corny if nothing else.

That said:

So in Mimara's case, with the Judging Eye, the Wight is the herring. He would be the metaphor for what it is Mimara actually does there, that is, cast her Subjective Frame onto the world.

Well, Mimara may be asserting her Subjective Frame but that possibility seems more due to lack of evidence than any supporting elements.

The wight mentions The Gates, Mimara seems to know exactly what he's talking about when she says that she holds those gates. I'm curious if the Gates being unguarded refers to this isolated incident or some larger flaw in the relationship between Outside and Inside...

Which might also tie into Locksnowe's idea that there is something very much wrong with the presence of the Inverse Fire.

[Francis Buck]

Managed to get through a good amount of TJE last night. Despite it being the part of the series I've technically read most recently, I feel like it's also the one where the most shit just went straight over my head. This is probably because there was big gap between my initial reading of the first trilogy and TJE. The stuff with Psatma in particular, I remember not really getting at all (I mean I still don't really "get it", but I at least have a better frame of reference for it -- I hadn't yet fully realized how real the gods were the first time around).

It may just be my own wishful thinking, but I think Cnaiur's still alive. I know Bakker loves his mysteries, but I can't see much of a reason for the ending to be so ambiguous if he really intended it to be the end of the character. Plus I just feel like there's a lot more than can be done with the character, in particular if he ends up allying with the Consult (which he would have reason to, and they'd have a reason to want him). He would be at least one semi-identifiable POV on the Consult's side, which they, as-of-yet, lack (barring any other established characters turning to the dark side).

A question: Are there any ideas as to what the fuck was going on with the eyeball inside the human heart in Cil-Aujas? I mean I know Achamian "explains" that it's because it's haunted, the Outside's leaking in, etc. etc., but that still doesn't really...well, explain an eyeball being inside a human heart.

[Kalbear]

の: (this should be where the symbol is)

It's supposed to look like a @ symbol, I think. It is the Japanese character 'no'. It has a lot of different meanings in Japanese; loosely translated, the title would read something like

Bakkering the Pacific Rim Job (noun to adjective)

Bakker, you pacific rim job (indicating possession)

Bakker of Pacific Rim Job fame (indicating the study of)

Bakker the Pacific Rim Job (indicating a job title)

[Sci-2]

Cnauir's dead, or at worst is an old man in Golgotterath. He's not Meppa, and I don't know why we'd see him in TUC. Any narrative revelation would be gimmicky, as we've not heard from the character since TTT.

I was doing a little TTT skimming around last night. I still think there's something to the way the Cish react to chorae versus everyone else, including Moenghus.

"But then the dread lights were halved, then halved yet again. Gasping, Eleäzaras glimpsed the giant Yalgrota, soot-blackened and blood-smeared, heaving Fanfarokar into the air by the throat. The asps flailed. Fist closed about a Chorae, the Thunyeri giant hammered the shaven skull into sopping ruin."

-TTT

Seems like there's no salting. Though one could make the argument that the Chorae didn't actually touch this Cish's skin.

A question: Are there any ideas as to what the fuck was going on with the eyeball inside the human heart in Cil-Aujas? I mean I know Achamian "explains" that it's because it's haunted, the Outside's leaking in, etc. etc., but that still doesn't really...well, explain an eyeball being inside a human heart.

There's a possible link between this and Kellhus pulling out Serwe's heart. I think [a part of] HE's whole theory is that the heart is the seat of the soul.

It's possible the heart is the point at which the Outside leaks into the Inside, as Akka would say, and constitutes a soul.

eta: formatting

[Larry of the Lawn]

Scylvendi are described as fair-skinned with dark hair and blue eyes.

Nearing the end of TTT. The ending really is epic as shit. I love when Saubon comes out of nowhere and decapitates Conphas.

Also, one of the Cishaurim sorceries mentioned is the Meppa Cataracts...

ETA: In regards to Moe's line:

I think this is also a clue that the God is a Monad-like sum of all consciousness. The God sleeps because it remains fractured (among souls). The Dunyain's goal of reaching the Absolute is one and the same with "awakening the God", I.E., having all souls return to the source (in Gnostic Christianity, the Monad is sometimes referred to as The Absolute).

There are a crazy amount of parallels with the metaphysics of the Bakkerverse and Gnostic Christianity (in its many forms). Too many not for there to be some kind of inspiration drawn from it, in my opinion.

So is Kellhus's Aspect-Emperor-ness derived partially from having so many souls worship him? Could Yatwer's large following deliver more power to her? Are the Hundred just leftover scraps of the one God?

There's a lot of Blood Meridian-style McCarthy to Bakker too (pretty sure TTT has a McCarthy quote on the first pages, and I read something about how Blood Meridian is loaded with gnostic shit). The Kosoter / Cleric pairing seems to be a pretty overt nod to Glanton and the Judge leading a band of roving lunatic scalpers into the wild.

Makes me want to learn more about gnosticism so I could maybe understand Bakker a bit.

[Tears of Lys]

Re: the eye-inside-the-heart - this was a really screwed-up scene. Bakker goes into some detail about the absolute black of the Nonman mansion. The scalper (who they stumbled upon with the eye in the heart) must have been stumbling around for quite some time in that literal hell-hole. I kind of imagined that the wish to "SEE" was made real and expressed by an actual eye growing in the man's heart (soul.)

Yeah, scary stuff.

[Sci-2]

There's a lot of Blood Meridian-style McCarthy to Bakker too (pretty sure TTT has a McCarthy quote on the first pages, and I read something about how Blood Meridian is loaded with gnostic shit).

Here's one good essay on that possibility.

As for Bakker being Gnostic, the Hundred do seem like Archons/Demiurges. But one could also think of them as lesser deities under a Godhead like Vishnu/Krsna.

Even the watcher/watched thing has relationship to Hindu mythology/philosophy:

The Dualistic School of Philosophy initiated by Anandatirtha draws its support from the afore-cited passage as well as from the passage of Katha Upanishad I.3.1 of an earlier Upanishad that speaks about two souls which taste the fruits of action, both of which are lodged in the recess of the human heart, and which are different from each other as light and shade, that carried the flaw – how could the Universal soul be regarded as enjoying the fruits of action?

The followers of Madhava draw their support from the Bhagavad Gita XV.16 that speaks about two persons in this world, the Mutable and the Immutable; the Mutable is all these things, while the Immutable is the one who exists at the top of them, one is the Jivatman and the other, Paramatman.^[12] Jivatman is chit, the sentient, and Paramatman is Isvara, both have the same attributes; they are inseparably present together on the tree which is achit, the insentient, or the gross Avidya component of existence ^[13]

Jivatman and Paramatman are both seated in the heart, the former is driven by the three modes of nature and acts, the latter simply witnesses as though approving the former’s activities.^[14] The relationship between Paramātmā, the Universal Self, and 'ātma, the Individual Self, is likened to the indwelling God and the soul within one's heart. Paramatman is one of the many aspects of Brahman. Paramatman is situated at the core of every individual jiva in the macrocosm. The Upanishads do compare Atman and Paramatman to two birds sitting like friends on the branch of a tree (body) where the Atman eats its fruits (karma), and the Paramatman only observes the Atman as a witness (sākṣin) of His friend's actions.

[Sci-2]

How did this get to the second page? Looks like we have limpers and stragglers on the Slog...

Anway, more stuff about the two souls, the aforementioned Jivatman and Paramatman, relating to Bakker's text:

From WLW:

"Father," Serwa explained, "says that we have an extra soul, one that lives, and another that watches us living. We

are prone to be at war with ourselves, the Anasûrimbor."

From TUC chapter:

“But isn’t trapping souls an ancient art?” she asked.

“It is...” Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned–and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?

One more blemish for Mimara to glimpse with her Judging Eye?

“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

Which was what made them such useful slaves.

“So to have your soul caught...” She trailed, frowning.

“Is to be twice-damned...” he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. “To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside.”

[Francis Buck]

So is Kellhus's Aspect-Emperor-ness derived partially from having so many souls worship him? Could Yatwer's large following deliver more power to her? Are the Hundred just leftover scraps of the one God?

No clue. I do believe that the gods (or any being from the Outside) have more influence on the World based on the number of souls they have under their...control. Or however you want to phrase it. There's a reason Yatwer is front-and-center in fighting against Kellhus, and I don't think it's a coincidence that she's also the most popular god.

I do not, however, think this same rule necessarily applies to Kellhus. I don't think he's more powerful because people worship him (like, Yatwer isn't powerful because she so many devotees, she's powerful because she gets all of those devotees souls when they die). I think that Kellhus is a "man", through and through, but I cautiously agree with others who have proposed that the concept of a messiah is a set of parameters fulfilled, and not someone specifically sent.

As to your last question, I don't yet know what I think the gods actually are. I do believe they have souls (since apparently Ciphrang have souls), so my wild guess is that yes, they are fractured pieces of the god as well, just ones that happened to have somehow gained enough power to will physical reality into existence, thus having a medium to "filter" mortal beings and collect all the shards of the god that they can. Totally spitballing there though.

Re: the eye-inside-the-heart - this was a really screwed-up scene. Bakker goes into some detail about the absolute black of the Nonman mansion. The scalper (who they stumbled upon with the eye in the heart) must have been stumbling around for quite some time in that literal hell-hole. I kind of imagined that the wish to "SEE" was made real and expressed by an actual eye growing in the man's heart (soul.)

Yeah, scary stuff.

Yeah, the entire Cil-Aujas sequence is one of the best parts of the series in my opinion. The sense of dread and suspense (even reading it a second time) is amazing.

I was happy to finally see Inrilatas (just finished the part where Kelmomas leaves him the file). His introduction was pretty great. All of Kellhus' kids are very interesting, and all in their own unique way. I can't imagine what would happen if Kelmomas was able to live to adulthood. He could seriously be an amazing villain (I mean he already is, and he's what, six years old? Imagine the fucker in twenty years).

[lokisnow]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the symbol in the thread title? A globe? A clock? Ancient Kuniuric?

my japanese is exceedingly faulty and basic, but it's the symbol no

roughly, it often means of

but not always. There's the added plus that in japanese you'd flip things around.

So the thread title might be read, Pacific Rim Job of Bakker

Or Kal's various translations which are pretty good.

Also it looks like a spiral or an eye, which are fun Bakker related. and the script-style of the character just feels appropriate, especially since Earwa uses a syllabary writing system as well. :-p

[Maithanet]

I do not, however, think this same rule necessarily applies to Kellhus. I don't think he's more powerful because people worship him (like, Yatwer isn't powerful because she so many devotees, she's powerful because she gets all of those devotees souls when they die). I think that Kellhus is a "man", through and through, but I cautiously agree with others who have proposed that the concept of a messiah is a set of parameters fulfilled, and not someone specifically sent.

But Kellhus has been the Aspect-Emperor for twenty years now. Millions of people have died in that time who believed (to varying degrees) in his divinity. Could he somehow use those souls in this upcoming struggle? I don't know how, but if the key to power is souls of the dead, then Kellhus has that too.

[Guest Francis_Buck]

But Kellhus has been the Aspect-Emperor for twenty years now. Millions of people have died in that time who believed (to varying degrees) in his divinity. Could he somehow use those souls in this upcoming struggle? I don't know how, but if the key to power is souls of the dead, then Kellhus has that too.

If you mean in the same way that I suggested the gods use them, then, personally, I don't think so. He's not a being of the Outside, and aside from his extraordinary genetics and training, he's still, essentially, human. I'm also not sure Kellhus would even want and/or need to use the souls in the way that the gods do. I think his goals might lie beyond that. If he is somehow "capturing" the souls of his followers, I've yet to see any textual evidence of it (though I did wonder at how the Ciphrang heads on his belt suddenly started moving during his "gazing session", where Sorweel's blessing from Yatwer shielded him).

Speaking of Sorweel, I really like how he has developed in TWLW. Sorweel and Mimara are definitely my new favorite POVs from the second trilogy. I hope he manages to live through it.

Cnauir's dead, or at worst is an old man in Golgotterath. He's not Meppa, and I don't know why we'd see him in TUC. Any narrative revelation would be gimmicky, as we've not heard from the character since TTT.

I personally don't think he's Meppa (from what little I've read of him so far in TWLW). That being said, I also feel like saying he'd just be an "old man in Golgotterath", or that any "narrative revelation would gimmicky", is kind of oversimplifying the character. He can be whatever Bakker wants him to be (and if he is coming back, then I think it stands to reason that Bakker has been planning for it). How old would Cnaiur be? His early sixties? Honestly, a ninety year old Cnaiur would still be a formidable opponent. His power, in my opinion anyway, comes less from his physical strength so much as his intellect, mastery of war, and most importantly (especially from the Consult's perspective), his knowledge -- and hatred -- of the Dunyain. Kellhus in particular. He seemed to have come to terms with his feelings towards Moe at the end of TTT, but once those are resolved, and assuming the skin-spy stayed his hand when trying to commit his final swazond, what would his feelings towards Kellhus be?

I mean I'm not 100% sold on him coming back or anything, indeed I lean towards it being rather unlikely, but I definitely don't believe the character is utterly devoid of any potential merit in the overarching story.

On another note:

I just finished the part where Sorweel is saved by Serwa and the other Swayali. Cool scene for sure. I liked Sorweel's response to Serwa when she questioned how many hundreds would die for him being saved ("So drop me," or something of that nature). I like that there are younger characters in the second trilogy, so that, in the vein of ASOIAF, we can sort of see them grow into the men and women that they will become.

I also love the POVs from the White-Luck Warrior. The way Bakker presents the timelessness of him is very interesting and well-done, and yet another fold in the ever complicating web of metaphysical shit that's going on. I remember Happy Ent semi-recently comparing the way the White-Luck Warrior works in comparison to the Dunyain -- I believe some kind of analogy regarding computers? -- which I found interesting. I'm ironically having computer troubles myself right now (evidenced by me using a brand new profile) and so if anyone could pull that up, I'd be highly appreciative.

As is often the case, I have a another question:

During TJE, in one of Mimara's POVs she reveals that she doesn't fear Soma, only because "he isn't a man". At the time, I took this to mean that he might be a eunuch (which would sort of explain a lot of his odd behavior, and of course her reaction to him).

But then in the TWLW, she uncovers him as skin-spy. What was going on when she thought that he "wasn't a man"?

ETA: Oh, and all this time I had thought the symbol in locke's title was a pendulous phallus and nutsack. So I'm shallow, what of it?

[Tears of Lys]

I think it was a clue to readers that Mimara had already realized he was skin-spy. Sarl was quite possibly a red herring in that regard with references to his cracked face and whatnot.

ETA: And let me say that I totally didn't see it and wondered about him being a eunuch, and I didn't buy it for sure even when folks in the threads put out the skin spy theory. More the fool I.

Count me in that fool category too, then. I chalk it up to my wanting to believe he wasn't a skin spy.

[Francis Buck]

Yeah, I never even remotely suspected it. I didn't even get what was going when he started going crazy with the sword to save Mimara. Took me as a total surprise.

So far I like TWLW a lot more than TJE. It just feels more...adventurous? I guess basically it's like TWP to TDTCB, which obviously makes sense in retrospect. Just bigger and crazier. The comparisons of the Skin Eaters to the company from Blood Meridian is totally spot on as well.

I realized last night that I've basically been picturing the Sranc's faces as the creepy girlfriend meme for the last several years.

Are chanv and qirri the same thing? They seem to have the same effects.

[Madness]

So far I like TWLW a lot more than TJE. It just feels more...adventurous? I guess basically it's like TWP to TDTCB, which obviously makes sense in retrospect. Just bigger and crazier. The comparisons of the Skin Eaters to the company from Blood Meridian is totally spot on as well.

...

Are chanv and qirri the same thing? They seem to have the same effects.

+1 to the upper portion of the quote.

As for chanv and qirri, there are distinctions. The most glaring of which is that chanv causes a loss of pigment (Iyokus and the Inchoroi are described as having translucent skin).

[generic]

As for chanv and qirri, there are distinctions. The most glaring of which is that chanv causes a loss of pigment (Iyokus and the Inchoroi are described as having translucent skin).

After years of use. Why Inchoroi?

[Sci-2]

After years of use. Why Inchoroi?

Well they did have all those extra corpses in the Well of the Aborted.

So they could use that for chanv.

Or maybe once they kill the mandati that they've tried to ply, they use chorae and have a new haul of chanv.

Isn't it Eli or Iyokus himself who wonders where the drug comes from?

From the wiki it seems clear the boy at the end of TTT was just planning to sell salt:

Chanv is an addictive narcotic popular among the Ainoni aristocracy, although many eschew it because of its uncertain origins.

Chanv reputedly sharpens the intellect, extends one lifespan, and drains the body of all its pigment^[1].

Chanv is produced in the nation of Jekhia^[2].

Jekhia is a tributart nation of High Ainon, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus.

Jekhia is famed as the mysterious source of chanv.

The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics^[1].