Bakker の Pacific Rim Job

[Madness]

Two actually: First Apocalypse and Cu'jara Cinmoi narrative set in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

[Sci-2]

Another mention of the See[ing] Fire Kellhus uses as sorcerous:

Proyas stared into the luminous gauze of the fire, rubbed his cheeks against the memory of its sorcerous

bite. People insensible to their own souls... It seemed he had known many such men over the course of his life, when he considered it. Many such fools.

I think the Seeing Flame might be an artifact of the Meta-Gnosis. I think the third inutteral grants power by allowing one generalize rather than become more specific - sort of related to what HE notes as polymorphism in programmer-speak.

A normal Cant related to communication via lucid dreams requires one person to know the exact sleeping place of the other. But Kellhus seems to ground the Seeing Flame in its commonality to all other fires, something more general that [than] place and time of a sleeper.

Similarly, he transformed the Cant of Calling into teleportation by shifting communication to another with a shifting of himself across space.

It's like he takes the basic idea of communication in both cases and then...expands/generalizes it somehow[.] Trying to think of a good way formally explain this in a way that could cover both cases.

eta: Could the God Awaken in Akka's dreams, in the same way he woke up Nautzera when[e]ver the other was lost in dreams of Seswatha's life?

[Larry of the Lawn]

(Aside, has anyone done a review of the tree imagery in the books? So much there from the twigs to the entrances to mansions, etc. and IIRC Bakker on the Dead Seas board confirmed that the tree imagery was intentional and meaningful.)

In the prologue of TDTCB, pretty sure we get lots of trees in Kellhus traversing the wilderness. Then Umiaki and the Circumfix. Then the message from Big Moe, "there is but one tree in Kyudea". Kellhus solo trip to Kyudea is rife with references to trees/branching that echoes the prologue.

not much of a review, but a list anyway, i guess...

[unJon]

The False Sun sets up a choice of whether the Inverse Fire is real or whether those that viewed it were possessed. Nil'G was the nonmen king that told Titurgia they were possessed and Shae said Nil'G was lying.

I think this riddle has an answer in the scene in TJE between Cleric (Nil'G) an the wight (Gin'Y). Wight says Cleric betrayed them. Gin'Y also pretty clearly see damned.

[Sci-2]

(Aside, has anyone done a review of the tree imagery in the books? So much there from the twigs to the entrances to mansions, etc. and IIRC Bakker on the Dead Seas board confirmed that the tree imagery was intentional and meaningful.)

I'll start a thread for this on Second Apocalypse as it'll just get buried here.

I think this riddle has an answer in the scene in TJE between Cleric (Nil'G) an the wight (Gin'Y). Wight says Cleric betrayed them. Gin'Y also pretty clearly see damned.

That doesn't say anything about whether the Inverse Fire is real because we know why the Nonmen are damned.

Even a fake damnation detector will work on someone who is already damned.

[unJon]

Thanks! Re: trees. Maybe that gets Happy Ent over there if he isn't already.

Fair point re people already damned. Except that doesn't explain why Gin'Y says Nil'G was a traitor. I have yet to here a plausible explanation for that conversation, and tying it to the IF works nicely. Also we don't know why Nonmen are damned. The Inchoroi added that to the Tusk.

[Sci-2]

Also we don't know why Nonmen are damned. The Inchoroi added that to the Tusk.

They kept some Emwama slaves caged underground for generations, humans they bred in darkness for solely to mine nimil.

This is what damned the Nonmen, or at least those who lived in palaces where such mines existed.

[lokisnow]

re trees: skim threads in this forum titled The Judging Eye for my posts circa early 2011 late 2010, I did a chapter by chapter reread of TJE and noted almost every significant tree bit I came across.

[unJon]

Ok fair. But is you point just the argument that there is always room for skepticism? Or if Mimara looked at IF and didn't see damnation would you say IF is right?

At very least I think that conversation showed that its wrong that nonmen could slip past gods into oblivion. At least in Gin'Y's case and he was a super powerful sorcerer and founder of a school.

[Sci-2]

@Lockesnow: Thanks, will look that up!

@Unjon:

Ok fair. But is you point just the argument that there is always room for skepticism? Or if Mimara looked at IF and didn't see damnation would you say IF is right?

If Mimara didn't see herself as damned I would be inclined to think the IF had merit.

At very least I think that conversation showed that its wrong that nonmen could slip past gods into oblivion. At least in Gin'Y's case and he was a super powerful sorcerer and founder of a school.

But we don't know if what grabbed his soul was the topos, or perhaps his sin marked him so deeply it was easy for the gods to find him.

Perhaps more virtuous Nonmen managed to slip past the gods.

The big thing is there's not enough known about the nature of sin and damnation to say anything for sure.

As an aside, I do think it's interesting that Gin'yursis sounds like an Angel of Endless hunger when possessing Cleric in TJE:

" I dream ," Cleric's voice booms through the wind howling black, " that I am a God ."

But a hunger, a voice groans through the mountain's foundations. A hunger runs through me...splits me like rotted stone.

How, the voice creaks through the roots of the world, could a God hunger?

[Francis Buck]

That's pretty cool Sci. Definitely sounds reminiscent of something the No-God would...I don't know, "think"? The questioning of itself, and the strangeness of the linking of hunger (for souls?), etc.

I really hope we find out what the fuck the No-God is TUC. I mean just anything. The tiniest little tid-bit. But it's kind of the biggest question of the series, so I wouldn't be shocked if we don't truly, definitively find out until the last book.

[lokisnow]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/48043-judging-eye-x-re-read

[Sci-2]

eta: @Lockesnow: Thanks!

@Francis:

I really hope we find out what the fuck the No-God is TUC.

There's some good speculation on Second Apocalypse though you might have read that already...

There was a link somewhere, to a comment on TPB. Someone mentioned something about the No God being forced to get others to confirm its own existence because it couldn't grasp its own existence.

Bakker replied with "Very Astute".

Damn I just saw that link a few days ago either in an old thread here or somewhere on Second Apocalypse...fuck...

@Triskele:

that the compensatory god Onkis that Inrau feels is also symbolized by a copper tree, but we are not told that there is any connection.

Yeah, IIRC she's a severed head with a tree growing into her neck, branching out of her mouth.

[Exa Inova]

Ok, this has probably come up a thousand times in as many threads but Im not planning to re read all those threads to find out;

Is it true that Kellus is a Mandate schoolsman? I think he is, having been tought by Acha. And does he indeed dream Seswatha's live? Have we any idea of what he thinks of it? Because he might view things differently.

[Antonius Pius]

I don't think so. Akka just taught him the gnosis, he didn't touch Seswatha's heart.

[Sci-2]

I think if Kellhus touched the heart it would have been mentioned.

Likely to dream Seswatha's memories means letting his soul into your own in some way,which is why he didn't do so. Serwa may have been weary, but as far as she seems to know her father is divine, that the Dunyain existed to grasp the God of Gods. So she also has a bit of Seswatha over layed onto her own soul.

Which makes it interesting if the Inverse Fire is the experience of Inchies who are already damned, as it also mean Shae and the human Consult were infected somehow by the remnants of an Inchie soul.

[Antonius Pius]

I do believe that he is technically a member of the School of Mandate.

He's got the gnosis, he's not Mandate (same as both Saik and Scarlet Spires use anagogic sorcery, but are different schools - hell, the Mangaecca use the gnosis too).

One would think that Kellhus would find Seswatha's information invaluable, but it would also be fun to think about why Kellhus wouldn't touch the heart if he hasn't.

I don't he would want Seswatha in his soul, and also, he seems to have made his mind up about the Consult. Apparently he doesn't need more backstory for his plan to work. He could also have pillaged the Mandate's libraries - Akka said there were rows and rows of books about the First Apocalypse and Seswatha's Dreams. He sold out the Mandate in any case, giving the gnosis to another school, but he probably needs the gnostic sorcerers to counter the Consult.

[Sci-2]

He's got the gnosis, he's not Mandate

In WLW it specifically states Khellus is a member of the Mandate. Essentially upon his ascension the Mandate become priests.

[Antonius Pius]

Really? Do you recall where?

[Sci-2]

There may be multiple places, but when Saccarees is sent to help the Army of the South there's some mention like "they were relieved because the Aspect-Emperor's own school would be represented."

This is where I recall it from. There are a few places in TJE where the Mandate's new status as priests are specifically mentioned, and one in WLW where Proyas reflects on sorcerers becoming priests when he looks at the severed demon heads during the meeting between Kellhus and the Nonmen.