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Bakker の Pacific Rim Job


lokisnow

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I see. I was actually wondering, on account of what lockesnow mentioned about the Inverse Fire being like Mt. Doom (and thus the ring must be thrown into it), if perhaps the Carapace is in fact a mobile vessel for the Inverse Fire itself. I do think it's more than just something to convince people of their own damnation, since it would seem odd the way the skin-spies "revere" it. I was also wondering if, assuming the Inverse Fire itself might be essential to the No-God, that perhaps it's supposed to be a sort of reversed version of Tolkien's Secret Fire. Instead of being the source of souls, it's that which extinguishes them. This took me to the idea of whether the equivalent of "throwing the ring into the mountain" will somehow be Mimara gazing upon the inside of the Carapace. You'd think the Consult might prepare this time for it to be impervious to the Heron Spear, if that's possible.

Total crackpottery, of course. I've never totally read The False Sun, just skimmed it, but I'm going to give it a real read-through once I finish TWLW.

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Francis, in WLW the last dream is a conscious Nau-Cayuti being broken from his coffin by Aurang and taken... it is safe to assume the poisoning was a ruse to imitate death.

Also, you should read TUC's Ch. 1 excerpt on TSA.

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Guest Francis_Buck

Been wondering that myself as I've read it. I thought perhaps it might be because they were related, but I think it's probably more complicated. I do think there's some kind of overarching design to the way the Dreams are coming to Akka. I wonder if there literally is a little part of Seswatha inside him, sending the Dreams most relevant. You could then say that Akka is the one getting the Dreams because he happens to be the Mandati most well-positioned to execute whatever the grand scheme is. It would also explain Kellhus' "I must speak to him" line when he apparently hypnotizes Akka.

Just read the double-whammy of the Mandate and Vokalati wiping each other out, while Sorweel finds Moe and Serwa banging. Definitely didn't see either of those coming. And to think that I was afraid I'd already spoiled all the big surprises in WLW for myself. Is Nautzera still around? I can't remember him being mentioned in the second series.

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Wait. Francis, you've been posting in these threads without having read WLW?

HOLY SHIT MAN ABORT ABORT!

...On the off chance you're still here the Soma skin spy does tell the Synthese (Aurang?) that Seswatha is very strong in Akka. In TDTCB, the Synthese tells Inaru that if Seswatha was inside the boy he would have recognized the Inchie.

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Hah, yes I am. I delayed reading WLW for a very long time, but I couldn't resist speculating about the series anyway. I decided to do a re-read before I finally got around to WLW because I knew I had missed so much the first time around. Normally I'm actually pretty anal about spoilers but this a rare case of me making an exception. I can't say it has really ruined my enjoyment too much at all. If anything WLW is turning out to be my favorite of the series. The pacing is, I think, much better than the earlier books, and Bakker's descriptions of the war sequences in particular really improved I think (in the first series they often felt a bit info-dumpish to me, and I skimmed a lot of them both times around, but with WLW I'm reading every section). I also really grew on Sorweel, especially with the two Kellian Kids being part of his story (well one kid and Cnaiur the second) who are both pretty fascinating characters. That was another twist I didn't know about, the whole Nonman hostage thing. I'd heard murmurings of Serwa possibly being a vessel for Nonman children, but never knew the context.

Oh and I really like that Proyas is back as a POV. His conversations with Kellhus are very interesting (and more than a little ominous).

On the other hand I'll probably start reading TUC on the day of release if humanly possible, so that'll really be the first time I'll get to be surprised by stuff with everyone else.

ETA: Oh, and one more thing I've been meaning to mention. Anyone else find it kind of odd that there's no Satan equivalent in either Inrithism or Fanimry? I mean they mention demons and stuff obviously (and I guess the Hundred themselves could be considered very loosely "satanic" in Fanimry), but it's always pretty vague.

I know I've heard about how in Ancient times the idea of Satan wasn't quite the same as it is now (like the concept of a single, evil entity at the root of everything). Perhaps that's part of it?

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Oh and I really like that Proyas is back as a POV. His conversations with Kellhus are very interesting (and more than a little ominous).

Proyas's perspective is incredibly sympathetic even when he's revealing his own prejudices against caste menials. His viewpoint would be the mortal friend of the Divine, and thus most in line with traditional fantasy tales, if not for the fact Kellhus is poking holes in the man's faith.

I also like when he hints at what happened in the intervening two decades between TTT and TJE.

ETA: Oh, and one more thing I've been meaning to mention. Anyone else find it kind of odd that there's no Satan equivalent in either Inrithism or Fanimry? I mean they mention demons and stuff obviously (and I guess the Hundred themselves could be considered very loosely "satanic" in Fanimry), but it's always pretty vague.

For me Earwa's relationship between the Hundred and God reminds me of Hindu stories that similarly place lesser divinities against the Godhead.

I think a Satan figure would be draw away from the Hundred vs God conflict, though to an extent the Four Horned Brother fills the part of demonic antagonist and Trickster.

Trickster mythology relates to thresholds so I'm curious to see the role the Trickster plays in TUC.

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For me Earwa's relationship between the Hundred and God reminds me of Hindu stories that similarly place lesser divinities against the Godhead.

I think a Satan figure would be draw away from the Hundred vs God conflict, though to an extent the Four Horned Brother fills the part of demonic antagonist and Trickster.

Trickster mythology relates to thresholds so I'm curious to see the role the Trickster plays in TUC.

Yeah this is a good point. I definitely think there's something going on between Kelmomas, his half-soul of Samarmas, and Ajokli. That early Kel scene in TJE definitely hints at a connection between Kel and Ajokli, I believe. I also agree, in retrospect, that a specific Satanic figure would ruin the idea of the gods being, in a weird way, against "The God", without actually realizing it. This is why I've railed against the concept of the gods' "morality" actually being somehow greater than that of the normal, ambiguous human morality. They're just another shard of the Absolute, as is explained by Eskeles and Serwa. It's even mentioned several times in TWLW how the gods are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and even that, as timeless beings, they're barely "alive" in the way that humans think of life. So trying to attribute them so actual greater morality (beyond the absurd self-serving rules that, say, Mimara recognizes) is totally beyond me.

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If you are refering to the Also commentary it was concerned with Trisk asking about Seswatha's heart and Nau-Cayuti Dreams.

The spoiler was because FB hasn't read the chapter one excerpt. Sorry, separate commentary.

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If that's true though, it suggests that Seswatha might have known about the Dunyain.

I feel pretty confident that, in some way -- perhaps even without realizing it -- Seswatha started the Dunyain and the Mandate as two factions that had to intersect in order to be effective against the Consult, but could also not exist as one entity. The Dunyain couldn't be the Dunyain if they had Seswatha's dreams (history, culture, etc.), and the Mandate wouldn't be taken seriously by any modern faction other than the most intelligent (Kellhus almost immediately accepts Akka's Apocalyptic stuff as being true). One side needed the skills, and the other needed the equivalent of an Inverse Fire to be utterly convinced of the reality of the situation. Actually, that right there is interesting. If the Inverse Fire really is nothing more than a "convincing device" for the Consult, then Seswa's Heart is basically the opposite -- a device meant to convince people that the Consult and their threat is still real.

Oh, and does Anaxophus have some kind of "modern" equivalent in the current storyline, so to speak? My knowledge of that character and his context is quite vague, but I've had this image for a long time of Akka riding in a chariot (wielding the Heron Spear) being driven by Proyas. I don't actually think this will happen, only because I don't think the ending of this story will be that symmetrical with the First Apocalypse, but even so it's kind of a heartwarming image. Regardless, I do hope Akka and Proyas have some kind of badass moment of unity together.

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Is anyone wondering where all this corpse-eating is gonna go? It's suddenly become a big thing in this second series.

Hmmm, it is interesting Kelmomas begins wanting to eat corpses right before his dad tells him army to eat Sranc. And then there's the whole thing with the Quirri...

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Anaxophus and the ruler of Zuem.

Also, it's never explicitly stated that Seswatha knows about the Dunyain but he certainly knows the location of Ishual.

It'd be interesting to check the historical notation and see how likely it is that Seswatha might have stopped by Ishual after Dunyain occupation (which allegedly happens after the destruction of Sauglish but before the No-Gods passing).

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Couple things from the Wiki:

-Another tie in to watcher-watched, but sort of inverted to the idea of sacrifice and witness that Kellhus speaks of in TWP:

“The Cultic priestesses of Yatwer… always [drag] two victims—usually spring lambs—to the sacrificial altar, one to pass under the knife, the other to witness the sacred passage. In this way, every beast thrown upon the altar always [knows], in its dim way, what [is] about to happen. For the Yatwerians, ritual [isn’t] enough: the transformation of casual slaughter into true sacrifice [requires] recognition.”[51]

-Chipmunk has an otherworldly edge. Does this mean it can cut through the Carapace? (HE asserted this awhile back, not sure if he still believes it)

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ETA: Oh, and one more thing I've been meaning to mention. Anyone else find it kind of odd that there's no Satan equivalent in either Inrithism or Fanimry? I mean they mention demons and stuff obviously (and I guess the Hundred themselves could be considered very loosely "satanic" in Fanimry), but it's always pretty vague.

I know I've heard about how in Ancient times the idea of Satan wasn't quite the same as it is now (like the concept of a single, evil entity at the root of everything). Perhaps that's part of it?

Yeah, Judaism and early Christianity afaik aren't/weren't big on the whole "hell" or "satan" thing.

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I see. I was actually wondering, on account of what lockesnow mentioned about the Inverse Fire being like Mt. Doom (and thus the ring must be thrown into it), if perhaps the Carapace is in fact a mobile vessel for the Inverse Fire itself.

Nope, I was saying that Inverse Fire IS the One Ring. And how do you put out a fire? Douse it with Water... I was saying the Cishaurim are like Mt Doom. The Carapace as a mobile vessel for the Inverse Fire is a nice idea, and would square with my crackpottery that Seswatha pulled a Prometheus and stole the Inverse Fire from the gods (and that's why the consult is so pissed at him.

I don't have my hardcover on me but Mimara notes it makes her more clever.

Something about it quickening more than her steps.

Traditionally it is wombs that quicken. It'd be interesting if she was carrying a stillborn babe until she started taking qirri and now her womb has quickened. St Alia of the Knife is coming, it seems.

Well, we have reason to believe that NC was captured by the Consult. I suppose if he were the No-God then it would be a roundabout way to make the "An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" prophecy be true as it would pretty much be one and the same.

But this appears to be speculative at this point. We still do not know for sure what the No-God even is. Is it a person turned into whatever the thing is? Is it a mechanism of the Tekne? Is it sorcerous in nature? Is it some combination of mechanism and sorcery? I'm all ears for theories, but I don't think we can know yet.

I'm still a fan of the somewhat silly idea that the no god is the anthropomorphic personification of meaninglessness. Since gods in general are anthropomorphic personifications of meaning...

Question: Why do some people think Nau-Cayuti became the No-God when Akka dreamed of his murder by his wife?

Speaking of which, I find it interesting that Bakker apparently claimed the title of the next series is a spoiler. Assuming there's an internal logic with the naming of the series (in that they refer to Kellhus and his "rank"), it would be reasonable to assume that the third series may be titled after him ascending to some kind of God-hood. The obvious guess would be the No-God, though I'm skeptical of that theory (the No-God doesn't seem to be something that Kellhus would strive for based on Dunyain ideals, though of course he might be also be insane -- and then we just don't know enough about what the No-God really is).

Though there is a certain poetry to the Prince of Nothing eventually becoming the No-God, which itself is somewhat thematically related to "nothingness" in various ways.

The next series could be the World Soul, The Absolute Soul, or it could be called the First Apocalypse, all would be spoilers of sorts. Or he could just be trying to throw us off the scent and there is no third series.
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He does.

It’s an argument from Tolkienesqism. Mimara would be mirroring Eöwyn and Pippin, killing the Witch King with a Barrow-blade.

Hmmm, what do Chorae do to magic items? Need to check if Mim is wearing hers along with her new magic armor.

I wonder, if there's a super sharp knife, wouldn't there have been super sharp weapons of old, like ancestral swords and such? Were they destroyed or hidden away during the Scholastic Wars?

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