Bakker の Pacific Rim Job

[lokisnow]

the maithanet theory is based on what esmenet thinks--that he doesn't look like himself/that he's let himself go--just before he's killed.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Not only that but he's wearing different clothes, she thinks his beard has been dyed more cheaply than normal, and IMO he acts strangely.

[Sci-2]

This is one of my big curiosities for the next book. How many humans are there? How many Nonmen? Are there multiple ways to prolong life or just one?

Seeing more of the Consult is one of the things I'm most excited about for the next book. I'll be really disappointed if the book basically just gets us there and with a battle but not much behind-the-scenes. So hoping for lots of behind-the-scenes with Istherebinth too. So afraid of all Dunyain being wiped out which feels like a real possibility.

Bakker has said the book will provide some back story on the Consult.

I think that there is only one way for humans to preserve their life. Of course Akka was merely extrapolating from his memories of the old days when there may have been living, rather than undead, Consult members...though Seswatha's life occurs approximately 1,000 years after Shae's IIRC so perhaps Shae possessed someone in the manner in which Aurang possessed Esmi [if the two Gnostic magi dueled during the First Apocalypse].

So assuming all the human Consult members are now winding themselves through these amputee circuits, we can presume the Consult have managed to maintain some kind of breeding stock or that the method Shae devised (rediscovered?) keeps those amputees from death.

But without Synthese of some humanoid variety, how exactly will the No-God be reconstructred? Will Aurax and Aurang do all the necessary Tekne procedures?

Jurble once noted that with Shae, Aurax, and Aurang all chilling with the Tekne for thousands of years they should have something akin to our heavy artillery by now. But their ability to construct anything may be exceedingly limited if they don't have skilled slave labor. And seeing as the Consult seems to be undead humans winding through amputees, two Inchies who are almost certainly not the brightest of their race, and a bunch of Nonmen their ability to construct much seems unlikely unless they have humanoid Synthese.

On the magic side, 2000 years is a lot of time to create various magic items such as enchanted armor or weapons with "otherworldly edges". Could Shae re-raise the very Barricades he brought down long ago?

Will Wutteat come back to Golgotterath to warn his former masters? After all, he too wants to die.

And then, on the side of the Ordeal, could Kellhus have made a False Sun of his own? One that radiates light and heat? And is his intellect so great as to match Shae's, when Shae has had millenia to prepare?

Can even a Dunyain beat those odds?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Bakker has said the book will provide some back story on the Consult.

I think that there is only one way for humans to preserve their life. Of course Akka was merely extrapolating from his memories of the old days when there may have been living, rather than undead, Consult members...though Seswatha's life occurs approximately 1,000 years after Shae's IIRC so perhaps Shae possessed someone in the manner in which Aurang possessed Esmi [if the two Gnostic magi dueled during the First Apocalypse].

So assuming all the human Consult members are now winding themselves through these amputee circuits, we can presume the Consult have managed to maintain some kind of breeding stock or that the method Shae devised (rediscovered?) keeps those amputees from death.

But without Synthese of some humanoid variety, how exactly will the No-God be reconstructred? Will Aurax and Aurang do all the necessary Tekne procedures?

Jurble once noted that with Shae, Aurax, and Aurang all chilling with the Tekne for thousands of years they should have something akin to our heavy artillery by now. But their ability to construct anything may be exceedingly limited if they don't have skilled slave labor. And seeing as the Consult seems to be undead humans winding through amputees, two Inchies who are almost certainly not the brightest of their race, and a bunch of Nonmen their ability to construct much seems unlikely unless they have humanoid Synthese.

On the magic side, 2000 years is a lot of time to create various magic items such as enchanted armor or weapons with "otherworldly edges". Could Shae re-raise the very Barricades he brought down long ago?

Will Wutteat come back to Golgotterath to warn his former masters? After all, he too wants to die.

And then, on the side of the Ordeal, could Kellhus have made a False Sun of his own? One that radiates light and heat? And is his intellect so great as to match Shae's, when Shae has had millenia to prepare?

Can even a Dunyain beat those odds?

Okay I read all that like it was being read by the Voiceover guy that does all the movie trailers.

[Francis Buck]

This is one of my big curiosities for the next book. How many humans are there? How many Nonmen? Are there multiple ways to prolong life or just one?

Seeing more of the Consult is one of the things I'm most excited about for the next book. I'll be really disappointed if the book basically just gets us there and with a battle but not much behind-the-scenes. So hoping for lots of behind-the-scenes with Istherebinth too. So afraid of all Dunyain being wiped out which feels like a real possibility.

I just recently (like, earlier today) read an excerpt from a Bakker interview, somewhere on the TSA forums, where he was giving a "what we already know" type thing on the Nonmen, and he -- ironically, actually, since we didn't know it -- mentioned that there are a few hundred of them working for the Consult (which, along with some Erratics wandering Earwa, and the inhabitants of Ishterebinth -- apparently the largest group of living Nonmen -- makes up the entirety of their population). I was actually kind of surprised there were that many Nonmen in the Consult. I was assuming that, at best, there might be a few hundred human members. I suppose that's still possible. But then again they do have what apparently amounts to a (small?) city within Golgotterath, not to mention the Ark, which is a "world unto itself", though how much of it is actually populated is up for debate.

Also, I can't believe I never caught on to the possible connection between the Nonman's physiology and their tendency for living underground. Pale skin, hairless, black eyes, etc. To me this definitely points to them somehow having "evolved" from other humans, and I've long wondered how exactly the Nonmen are related to humans, whether they were somehow constructed or something.

Still doesn't really explain the whole "heroes keep growing" thing, though. Also, I swear I've heard of the concept that some people see paintings as gibberish long before reading TSA. Long before, as in, like, my childhood. Is this an idea that exists outside of Bakkerverse?

[Shryke]

The TTT glossary mentions the Non-men call themselves " the children of dawn" for reasons they can no longer remember. (they call men the children of summer)

I always wondered if that comment was poetic fun or actually meant something.

[Madness]

There are some cases of neurological dysfunction I could regale you with... it's definitely a thing ;).

[Sci-2]

Okay I read all that like it was being read by the Voiceover guy that does all the movie trailers.

That means you see, while the others grasp about seeking confirmation of trivialities in the texts...fools shifting for gold in the river as the flood comes swirling down on their heads...

The stakes demand such a voice Larry, and I suspect in the end no one will escape the plate.

"You are a king and a general," Kellhus said. "I would think you know well the peril of guesses."

Proyas nodded and smiled. "No one likes playing number-sticks alone."

His Lord-and-God raised his eyebrows. "Not with stakes so mad as these."

By some trick of timing, the golden flames before them twirled, and again Proyas thought he glimpsed fiery doom

flutter across the leather-panelled walls.

[Francis Buck]

There are some cases of neurological dysfunction I could regale you with... it's definitely a thing ;).

Regale me?

ETA: That was a request by the way, not a snarky retort. As in, "please do regale me".

EWA2: Hah, well, "please do regale me" sounds kinda snarky too, but I don't mean it, I swear. Genuinely curious about this.

[Sci-2]

I was actually kind of surprised there were that many Nonmen in the Consult. I was assuming that, at best, there might be a few hundred human members. I suppose that's still possible. But then again they do have what apparently amounts to a (small?) city within Golgotterath, not to mention the Ark, which is a "world unto itself", though how much of it is actually populated is up for debate.

Yeah, IIRC the Gnostic Schools of old precede the Scholastic Wars. Does this mean they'd be larger as more Few would voluntarily join?

So then the Consult could have several hundred undead humans? Or did they essentially cannibalize each other for amputee circuits?

[Jussi]

Bakker wrote today:

I haven’t had nearly the time I would like to devote to this thread! You would think finishing a book would free up time, but the opposite is always the case…

[Madness]

Regale me?

ETA: That was a request by the way, not a snarky retort. As in, "please do regale me".

EWA2: Hah, well, "please do regale me" sounds kinda snarky too, but I don't mean it, I swear. Genuinely curious about this.

Lol, I didn't think you were being snarky. We need to win back the connotations of 'regale' so we both don't read like asshats ;).

If I had my laptop on me, I could (and can in the future), point you towards more specific examples (particular case literature). Visual agnosias cover a range of symptomatic manifestation - that is degeneration or dysfunction, which results in an inability to recognize features of our visual environment, without damage to the perceptual organ; fancy way of saying there is nothing wrong with a person's eyes but for whatever reason, they aren't visually perceiving our (mostly) consensual experience of reality.

While the research tends towards consolidating cases under reduced umbrellas (novel cases of disorder are descriptively bent to fit old theory), there are a number of relevant examples. Individuals can copy or draw pictures but can't actually tell you what it is they drew (often vary simple shapes or objects). Individuals recognize the parts or the whole but not the other. This often lends towards the possibility of linguistic rather than visual dysfunction; naming categories of things but not recognizing their differences or vice versa, not recognizing the real from depiction.

For my money, there is a miniscule schema of neurons representing our entire perceptual experience as neuronal matter (grey & white) and because of this minute breakdown of representation, perception can fail with a scary counter-intuitive specificity: like failure to recognize either horizontal or vertical lines in our environment.

Despite the wealth of disorder study, we just don't know enough about how the brain actually functions in order to identify the breakdown of information processing within our brains with any sort of greater precision. Too much of neuroscientific study has resulted from the study of how things go wrong and not enough has resulted from understanding why the brain processed our perceptual experience like that in the first place.

EDIT:

One that always struck me: it only takes a few lines in a specific arrangment for you to perceive a whole person.

[Rhom]

Bakker wrote today:

Shit seriously?!!? Was he just referring to the first draft? Or a more final production?

[Sci-2]

I have to think it was the draft. It could be interpreted to square with that.

Yeah, I can't imagine it being final production.

I'm guessing his editor is reading the book now, and it will change somewhat upon release.

[jurble]

"Could you add more black semen?"

"It's been 6 books, why not have a human rape a Sranc?"

[Francis Buck]

snip

I see, that's interesting. And yeah, the thing about how little we need to recognize something as depicting a human is pretty crazy. Even in children's cartoons, if you think about bizarre the characters would actually look if they were "real" (hell, just look at those real-life Simpsons things, shit's horrifying), and the sheer variety of different styles that all work equally well. Or like how we can perceive the letter "A" (or any letter of the alphabet for that matter) in so many ways.

[Larry of the Lawn]

"Could you add more black semen?"

"It's been 6 books, why not have a human rape a Sranc?"

Like.

[Sci-2]

The TTT glossary mentions the Non-men call themselves " the children of dawn" for reasons they can no longer remember. (they call men the children of summer)

I always wondered if that comment was poetic fun or actually meant something.

Children of summer seems to refer to short lifespans?

[Part of me wants to say humans may be a degenerate strain of Nonmen.]

We don't know how evolution works on Earwa. It's possible that everything evolved from microbial life, but it's also possible that God dreamed some starting point equivalent to our later ages. For example, no one seems to have ever mentioned the fossil record, or assumed a variety of mythical beasts arising from such [skeletal remnants and imprints in stone] things.

[Madness]

This Tusk is allegedly from an Earwan megafauna.

[jurble]

Doesn't some character comment that he went to see the Tusk with his uncle or something, and his uncle asked him what it was part of, and he answered mastodon? I don't recall the scene perfectly. It wasn't Proyas, I think. Nilnamesh has mastodons, so I don't think anyone thinks too much on the question.