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Gustavo Fring

Why would Tywin Lannister have sex with shae?

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Remember the tunnel dug up into the whorehouse Tyrion uses to cover his tracks? Varys said it was dug by a Hand whose honor didn't permit him to visit publicly. Tywin Lannister was Hand to Aerys long enough. Truth be told, all he cares about is the perception of his house and honor, not the actuality of it. He has nothing against whores; he doesn't like that Tyrion brought her to the capital. where people would see.

This makes sense because of all Tyrion's qualities this is the one he hates about Tyrion the most and because Tyrion has no shame in hiding it. So it would make sense he would dig a tunnel so no one would know of his taste for Whores as well. It does make sense.

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Thanks for explaining me now it makes sense, I misread the part where it is told that a hand of the king dig those! I used to think it was the king whom actually made them

Sweet baby Jesus, the Lannister family is a mess of a family.

I would whole heartedly agree and add they are all hypocrites and do not take responsibility for their actions and let pets do the dirty work instead of doing it themselves like Ned does when he condemns the deserter of the NW.

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The core of it is that Tywin is a hypocrite and, deep down, is a deeply insecure man.

Think of it: of ALL the whores he could have been with, he chooses his son's. Why is this? To get back at him? But Tyrion is in the black cells and due to be executed: had Varys not brought him past the stairs, had Jamie not sprung him, Tyrion would never have found out about this. It seems an odd way to get vengeance when what Tyrion is accused of is killing someone that Tyrion and Tywin both saw as problematic and were unlikely to mourn.

Could it be that Tywin actually, in a weird way, ENVIES his son? That he worries deep down that his dwarf son might be smarter than he is? Might be more virile? When the chips are down he seems to trust him with power and debate matters of state with him he totally doesn't have to (even if Tywin never makes Tyrion feel he's actually being consulted) only to take it away when the crisis is over.

I think the fact that it was Shae in his bed, and that Tyrion would have never known about it were it not for an accidental 'visit' is key...

I like your way of thinking.

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I would say, that Shae actively sought out Tywin. She wants a lady's position (her wish to show off the dresses and the jewellery Tyrion gave her and her wish to to as close to the royal wedding as possible) and it seems reasonable from her point of view to approach the next powerful man once Tyrion loses power.



When Tyrion originally met Shae, he noted that she was clever. So being a whore she uses her beauty to capture the next man to ensure her future rather than living a humble life as a maid at the castle


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After reading this chapter, I thought Shae had always been Tywin's whore. Bronn was a sellsword. Tywin could have paid him to bring Shae to Tyrion. Who better to spy on his son than his whore? He knew Tyrion would have a whore so why not give him his own to keep him informed of Tyrion's doings as Hand in Kings Landing. He sealed the deal by telling Tyrion not to bring Shae to KL because if he said not to bring her he knew Tyrion would.


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In my opinion, Tywin's dislike for Tyrion only strengthened over the years as Tyrion grew. I think that Tywin sees that Tyrion is the one child that is most like him, and the fact that he is a dwarf, he can't stand it. A few people have mention in the books that only one of Lady Joanna's brood that is most like their father, is Tyrion.



Like father, like son. Tyrion could have inherited his love for whores from his father, although in his own way, Tyrion has always been faithful.


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There is no direct textual evidence that Shae slept (or even co-habited the bed) with Tywin.



I'm not just being argumentative or catty here -- the scene (and chapter) is very carefully and deliberately written, as are many of Martin's scenes wherein characters "die" or "confess" to regicide or do any number of other seemingly-obvious things. Shae calls "M'lord" from the bed, and says a few faux-dramatic things about how the Queen-Regent and Hand frighten her, and she happens to be naked (save for the golden hand-necklace)... but there is no other linkage. She says "m'lord will be back soon," not "m'lord is good to me" or "m'lord satisfies me like you never could" or any similar direct testimonial.



More to the point, Tywin never so much as mentions Shae's name or acknowledges her presence. He does a brief double-take when Tyrion references Tysha, then recalls "Oh, yes, your first whore." What might have been a predictable you-stole-my-woman, you-lie-with-whores father/son exchange is conspicuously absent.



There's not a lot to go on -- we're drifting into extra-textual territory -- but I think some sort of conspiracy is heavily implied here, whether it be Varys maneuver-Lannisters-into-a-tense-emotional-situation, or Littlefinger-mess-with-his-favorite-dwarf-again, or some third (Cersei?) angle. Martin has very nearly confirmed same, and I read his words as being very Varys-indicative and (eventually) tying into the ADWD epilogue reveal:



http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

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Didn't Tywin say he would not allow them to execute Tyrion, so Tyrion was gong to be sent to the wall?

 Tywin was never the same man after his wife died giving birth to Tyrion.  Tyrion took her away,

 

 Tywin picked Shae so he could take her away from Tyrion,  by taking her as his lover, making her his spy, or both,

either way it would be Shae's betrayal.

  IMHO,  Tywin was setting up Tyrion for a double whammy with maximum effect, first to send him to the wall, and then tell Tyrion about Shae, so he could take Tyrion's life and love away at the same time.

He did the same before with Tyrion's first wife and Jamie, but Tyrion must not have suffered enough in Tywin's opinion, it  didn't break him enough.

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I do believe tywin was whoring with shae,tywin is really a mess,he dislikes whores and threatened to hang the next whore he found with tyrion kings landing,and then he ended of having her for himself,I think Tywin is selfish and a horrible hypocrite

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Uh, she's a whore. Possibly an attractive one.

He's a guy. One with power, money, and her in captivity.

Guess he got sick of his wife being dead.

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Maybe the continuation of her privileged life was the price of her trial testimony? Her statements were intended to humiliate Tyrion as much as incriminate him, and I think Tywin would have rather humiliated Tyrion than killed him. 

This is also Tysha 2.0. Both times, Tywin wanted to prove that the woman Tyrion loved was "just a whore". I suspect this is a deep envy of Tyrion, as Tywin has lost the capacity for love after Joanna's death and can't stand that his grotesque dwarf son shows humanity by sharing love with another person. Despoiling Tyrion's love interests is how Tywin convinces himself that Tyrion is the monster he imagines. 
 

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I regard it as "schadenfreude". Deeply envious and resentful people who wear masks, enjoy the idea of humiliation, more than the humiliating act itself. To most people revenge seems pointless if the victim (Tyrion) doesn't know about it. But with some the knowledge a victim has been fooled without the victim even knowing it is the cherry on top. Tywin is indeed most likely the Hand who had secret tunnels built to the whorehouse so that it wasn't known he frequented them, because he publically disgraced his father's whore. But he chose Shae imo because in Tywin's mind it was the ultimate delectable revenge - to fuck te whore his son was in love with. Tyrion normally not knowing about it, actually made it even more exciting in Tywin's mind, because it makes Tyrion even more of a fool. 

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tyrion normally not knowing about it, actually made it even more exciting in Tywin's mind, because it makes Tyrion even more of a fool. 

And Tywin never let a opportunity pass where he could humiliate Tyrion and destroy anything he cared about.  If he was sincere about hating Tyrion's whores, he would have had Shae punished for her presumptuous attitude (wearing the Hand's chain in bed) like he did with his father's mistress (who wore his mother's jewels).  It's so telling that out of all the whores in KL, he had to have Tyrion's.  He probably didn't even need to confirm that Tyrion was "in love" with her, just knowing his son's neediness to be loved was enough.  I didn't even think about the tunnels being connected to Tywin, but makes perfect sense.  

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After I'd first joined the forum, one of the first standout discussions I ever had was this one.  I think it's a searing indictment of the full extent of Tywin's pathological personality.  

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I have explained it before. And it is much more complex than the favourite "he is just a hypocrite" insult that is the knee jerk response of the uninformed.

Tywin can still love whores without having anything to do with Shae, who, let's face it, is just a common camp whore, sleeping with hedge knights in Tywin's army. If all Tywin cared about was sex, he could have whores ten times more beautiful than Shae. He could have the Black Pearl from Braavos on personal retainer (hyperbole), or a collection of the finest whores from Lys waiting in a personal harem. He is after all the richest man in Westeros.

No, he wasn't after Shae just because she is passing pretty. Nope, he was after Shae because of her connection to Tyrion. And then the question becomes, why would that be?

To cut a long story short, because Aerys stole and had sex with the woman that was most dear to Tywin - his wife Joanna - and fathered a son with her. And Aerys was the one man Tywin was powerless to stop from doing so. It left a permanent, burning scar on his psyche. And while Tywin was able to eventually avenge himself on Aerys by killing him and his offspring, it is a psychological wound that will never heal.

And now that Tyrion (Aerys son from this insult) has someone he holds dear, it is a form of vengeance for Tywin to take Aerys's son's "woman" and sleep with her, just as Aerys did to him.

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