The Food Code of Ice and Fire

[Pearlthegirl]

Amazing thread~

And obviously lemons for innocence - Sansa's lemoncakes, Dany's lemon tree, and one of the minor characters mentions lemon-stewed rabbit (or something) nostalgically as part of his "good old days"

Lem Lemoncloak. He wanted lemon duck but got stewed rabbit with a "WTF you thinking dude? we're at war here" dismissal to go with it. He was definitely missing the good ole days.

[Associate Maester]

Great topic. I would imagine that the lemons in the lemon water associated with Stannis refers to purification (lemons in Iranian and Persian folklore symbolize purification and cleansing). In many way he wants to purify the realm.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Great topic. I would imagine that the lemons in the lemon water associated with Stannis refers to purification (lemons in Iranian and Persian folklore symbolize purification and cleansing). In many way he wants to purify the realm.

Interesting take. Also dovetails with the idea of lemons as innocence; purity.

[Associate Maester]

Just another quick note on the pomegranate--certain early Rabbinical traditions argue that the "forbidden fruit" was in fact a pomegranate (in fairness, other Rabbinical traditions argued the fruit was everything from a fig to a citron). So we have shades not just of Persephone and Hades in the Underworld, but of Eve and the Serpent. However, it is a fun inverse because while she did not take the "forbidden fruit" she is gaining invaluable knowledge.

[Katkara]

Yep, I agree re the beets. The Freys are certainly marked for it, or at least the ones who were there or part of the plot.

I certainly agree that it was important Sansa chose something other than a pomegranate, but there were also "apples and pears and pomegranates, some sad-looking grapes, a huge blood orange." This seems meaningful to me, I am not sure why.

The apples could represent the Fossways, or knowledge. The grapes, the Redwynes, and the blood orange Arya. Maybe it is significant that Sansa didn't follow a path to the Reach, or the path to Arya. Maybe. I will think more on it.

I just read the first Davos chapter in ACOK, and I believe that grapes symbolise nobility.

Across the noisy common room, Salladhor Saan sat eating grapes from a wooden bowl. When he spied Davos, he beckoned him closer.

"Ser knight, come sit with me. Eat a grape. Eat two. They are marvellously sweet." [...]

The Lyseni was a smuggler himself, as well as a trader, a banker, a notorious pirate and the self-styled Prince of the Narrow Sea. [...]

"[...] Are you sure that you will not have a grape? Children go hungry in the city, it is said." He dangled the grapes before Dacos and smiled.

"It's ale I need, and news."

"The men of Westeros are ever rushing," complained Salladhor Saan. "What good is this, I ask you? He who hurries through life hurries to his grave." He belched. "The Lord of Casterly Rock has sent his dwarf to see to King's Landing. Perhaps he hopes that his ugly face will frighten off attackers, eh? Or that we will laugh ourselves dead when the Imp capers on the battlements, who can say? The dwarf has chased off the lout who ruled the gold cloaks and put in his place a knight with an iron hand." He plucked a grape, and squeezed it between thumb and forefinger until the skin burst. Juice ran down between his fingers.

1) Salladhor Saan styles himself a prince, and eats grapes, while Davos still thinks of himself as lowborn and refuses them, though Salladhor repeatedly offers him grapes.

2) Children go hungry in the city, most likely the fault of the nobility.

3) Tyrion chased off Janos Slynt, new-made Lord and thus part of the nobility. The grape that Salladhor squeezed represents Slynt, who lost his title as fast as he gained it.

4) In our world, grapes are usually a sign for wealth and power.

5) The "sad-looking grapes" from the Sansa chapter might mean that the nobility's power is weakening. I'm not sure to whom that would refer, though, since nobody eats them.

[Roadside Rose]

I believe this quote by Leo Tyrell (aFFC) symbolizes the Purple Wedding,

Checkered Hazard - the chess board

The tiles turned against me - The Tyrell plans went awry

I wasted my last stag on supper - The money the Tyrells spent on the Purple Wedding

suckling pig - Joffrey (Cersei's been referred to as a pig before)

plum sauce - Littlefinger

chestnuts & white truffles - truffles is a kind of mushroom - surprisingly, Tyrion finds a type of white poisonous mushroom grow outside Illyrio's yard

Leo sat himself at theirs. “Buy me a cup of Arbor gold, Hopfrog, and perhaps I won’t inform my father of your toast. The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. Suckling pig in plum sauce, stuffed with chestnuts and white truffles. A man must eat. What did you lads have?”

Interestingly, what Illyrio eats with Tyrion is similar (aDwD), and Tyrion fears Illyrio will poison him with mushroom,

Illyrio eating a piece of the suckling pig maybe a hint that he has conspired in Joffrey's death

The suckling pig was carved. Illyrio reached for a piece of the crackling, dipped it in a plum sauce, and ate it with his fingers.

[Fire Eater]

I believe this quote by Leo Tyrell (aFFC) symbolizes the Purple Wedding,

Checkered Hazard - the chess board

The tiles turned against me - The Tyrell plans went awry

I wasted my last stag on supper - The money the Tyrells spent on the Purple Wedding

suckling pig - Joffrey (Cersei's been referred to as a pig before)

plum sauce - Littlefinger

chestnuts & white truffles - truffles is a kind of mushroom - surprisingly, Tyrion finds a type of white poisonous mushroom grow outside Illyrio's yard

Interestingly, what Illyrio eats with Tyrion is similar (aDwD), and Tyrion fears Illyrio will poison him with mushroom,

Illyrio eating a piece of the suckling pig maybe a hint that he has conspired in Joffrey's death

Plums were symbols of duplicity and betrayal, so Illyrio eating suckling pig in plum sauce is a hint at his duplicity. There is also Brown Ben Plumm, whose name points to his character given that he betrays Dany.

[Greymoon]

I just read the first Davos chapter in ACOK, and I believe that grapes symbolise nobility.

1) Salladhor Saan styles himself a prince, and eats grapes, while Davos still thinks of himself as lowborn and refuses them, though Salladhor repeatedly offers him grapes.

2) Children go hungry in the city, most likely the fault of the nobility.

3) Tyrion chased off Janos Slynt, new-made Lord and thus part of the nobility. The grape that Salladhor squeezed represents Slynt, who lost his title as fast as he gained it.

4) In our world, grapes are usually a sign for wealth and power.

5) The "sad-looking grapes" from the Sansa chapter might mean that the nobility's power is weakening. I'm not sure to whom that would refer, though, since nobody eats them.

4) not quite, I think:

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis

The grape vine (typically Vitis vinifera) has been used as a symbol since ancient times. In Greek mythology, Dionysus (called Bacchus by the Romans) was god of the vintage and, therefore, a grape vine with bunches of the fruit are among his attributes. His attendants at the Bacchanalian festivals hence had the vine as an attribute, together with the thyrsus, the latter often entwined with vine branches. For the same reason, the Greek wine cup (cantharos) is commonly decorated with the vine and grapes, wine being drunk as a libationto the god.

In Christian iconography, the vine also frequently appears. It is mentioned several times in the New Testament. We have the parable of the kingdom of heaven likened to the father starting to engage laborers for his vineyard.[...] At times, the vine is used as symbol of temporal blessing.

Throughout history, the grape has been a symbol in art and literature of revelry and joy.

from http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Grape

5) the sad looking grapes, may mean the death of hope/joy

I think we may combine two things here: Grapes usulaly mature mid-september, its an autum fruit.

from http://www.helium.com/items/2231532-symbolism-of-autumn-in-classic-literature

In parts of the world where autumn brings a change of seasons and nature begins to go dormant in preparation for winter, the symbolism of things such as leaves turning and falling from the trees often stands for deterioration, death, and dying. Living things that flourished in winter wither, die, and begin to decompose in the earth. It is also a time when people come in from outside and hunker down in preparation for the cold and storms of winter. For humanity in general, autumn symbolizes the evolution from youth to a more mature part of life, full of wisdom and knowledge over enthusiasm and innocence.

[Greymoon]

Interestingly, what Illyrio eats with Tyrion is similar (aDwD), and Tyrion fears Illyrio will poison him with mushroom,

Illyrio eating a piece of the suckling pig maybe a hint that he has conspired in Joffrey's death

Pigs have inspired many idioms, and are frequently referenced in culture. They have become synonymous with several negative attributes, especially greed, gluttony, and uncleanliness, and these ascribed attributes have often led to critical comparisons between pigs and humans.

Greed and gluttony fits Illyrion perfectly, IMO.

[Woman of War]

Concerning Sansa's Lemoncakes:

In German-speaking Europe, lemons and bitter oranges played an important part in various customs surrounding illness, death and funeral. The earliest known depiction of a deceased with a citrus fruit in his hand is to be found on the 1247/48 tomb of Count Henry of Sayn and his daughter. The citrus fruit symbolizes the hope of resurrection and eternal life. It was primarily lemons that from the Baroque age to the mid-20th century were put into the hand of the laid-out body, carried by the mourners, the pall bearers and the clergyman in the funeral procession, and cast into the open grave of the deceased. By inhaling its strong scent people wanted to protect themselves from the smell of decay and from the communication of diseases. In the Baroque age, the number of lemons brought to a funeral procession served at the same time as an indicator of the prestige of the deceased and his relatives.

.....

Still Lifes: Feast for the Eyes and Sensuous Delight Around 1600, still lifes developed in Italy and the Netherlands as a distinct genre from religious painting. Citrus fruits played an important part in them from the outset, which is attributable, apart from the fruits' exoticism and value, to their importance as a Marian symbol. In the 17th century, the charging of the still lifes with inner meaning as well as the virtuosic composition of selected objects and citrus fruits was brought to a climax by the Dutch. In their paintings citrus fruits can be interpreted as an exhortation to moderation in the midst of portrayed luxury. At the same time the bright citrus fruits with their pitted skins and the transparently shimmering pulp provided an opportunity to the artists to bear witness to their skills. Insects, dew drops and traces of fruit decay added a theme of temporality to the still lifes and heightened the virtuosity by yet another element.

By artdaily.org

Sansa as beautiful but as untouchable as a piece of art?

The ability to paint lemons has always shown the competence of the artist but only renowned artists had access to their "models" since in Northern Europe, just like in Winterfell, lemon trees simply do not grow outside any glass houses. So maybe Sansa's inability to rebuild the glass houses of Winterfell without Baelish's help means that she will never return to her life as child of luxury.

Marian symbol? Fresh lemons are not pleasing to eat, they are the contrary of sensuality, the contrary of the fig symbolism of female sexuality (Dany as definitely sensual, sexual person "nibbles at figs"), they tighten your mouth and when used as disinfectant against diseases of female sexual parts the juice burns.

So the love for lemon cakes may symbolize not only death. There may be pleasure, the sugar, the cake aspect but it stays sterile, the joyfully indulged sensuality is kept at bay by sharp lemon taste.

[Greymoon]

Amazing thread~

And obviously lemons for innocence - Sansa's lemoncakes, Dany's lemon tree, and one of the minor characters mentions lemon-stewed rabbit (or something) nostalgically as part of his "good old days"

some things of interest here:

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=47622#.UhDknn-dN3o

Many 17th century child portrait show the portrayed subjects with a citrus fruit in their hand and a dog by their side. According to the conception of the time, the child as the fruit of the parents gradually gained maturity – hinted at by the citrus fruit – through the upbringing, symbolized by the dog.[...]

The citron, called “etrog” in the Talmud, is of highly symbolic value in the Jewish faith. As the fruit of the biblical ‘goodly tree’, it was equated with the fruit of the tree of knowledge, of which Adam and Eve ate. At the same time, the etrog symbolizes the Jewish hope of paradise.[...]

In German-speaking Europe, lemons and bitter oranges played an important part in various customs surrounding illness, death and funeral. [...] The citrus fruit symbolizes the hope of resurrection and eternal life. [...]

The citruses’ distinctive feature of simultaneously bearing fragrant white blossomns and fruit made citrus popular attributes of the Virgin Mary. The blossoms symbolize Mary’s virginity, the fruit her pure motherhood.

Childhood, hope, health, innocence, purity. Coincidence?

[Greymoon]

Concerning Sansa's Lemoncakes:

By artdaily.org

Sansa as beautiful but as untouchable as a piece of art?

The ability to paint lemons has always shown the competence of the artist but only renowned artists had access to their "models" since in Northern Europe, just like in Winterfell, lemon trees simply do not grow outside any glass houses. So maybe Sansa's inability to rebuild the glass houses of Winterfell without Baelish's help means that she will never return to her life as child of luxury.

Marian symbol? Fresh lemons are not pleasing to eat, they are the contrary of sensuality, the contrary of the fig symbolism of female sexuality (Dany as definitely sensual, sexual person "nibbles at figs"), they tighten your mouth and when used as disinfectant against diseases of female sexual parts the juice burns.

So the love for lemon cakes may symbolize not only death. There may be pleasure, the sugar, the cake aspect but it stays sterile, the joyfully indulged sensuality is kept at bay by sharp lemon taste.

:cheers: we found the same article!

[Woman of War]

:cheers: we found the same article!

:)

I am always so happy to find what I want to say in English since I am used to write about art in my own language but translating art history and philosophy is a bit hard. Though I could write for hours about 17th century still life and bore you all into a coma.

P.s. i just realized that the lemon as symbol of Marian motherhood may mean burning pain and acidity linked with it. So if Sansa will ever become a mother within the time frame of the books this may not mean bliss but sadness, like for Maria, always styled by the Catholic Church into an expert of pain.

But let's not forget that the religious background of Dutch or Flemish still life was already a protestant tradition where depicted sensuality always had to have the taste of vanitas, in calvinism every pleasure an exercise in moderation and Sansa is a very moderated character.

[Roadside Rose]

I found this http://www.historyof...s.com/fruit.htm though I am not sure if they correspond to the fruits in ASOIAF

pomegranate - Symbolizes eternal life; divine prosperity; The pomegranate can also signify fall from grace and mans sinful nature.

apple - Carnal pleasures and sin;

fig - Symbolizes loss of innocence and a fall from grace.

pear - Symbolizes marital faith.

Grapes Signify lewdness and lustful thoughts.

orange -Symbol of free will.

lemon - Symbolic of a bitter heart or a sour disposition; resentment; unresolved conflict.

strawberry -Symbol of harmony, nourishment of the soul.

peach - Symbol of virtue and honor. A rotting or half-eaten peach symbolizes a woman who has tarnished her reputation with immoral behavior.

Some animals symbols here http://www.historyof...com/animals.htm

(Varys) Spider in a Web - symbolizes a spinner of fate, intrigue in the court.

[J. Stargaryen]

Plums were symbols of duplicity and betrayal, so Illyrio eating suckling pig in plum sauce is a hint at his duplicity. There is also Brown Ben Plumm, whose name points to his character given that he betrays Dany.

I believe you pointed out a while back that pig = Targaryen and/or king. If plum is duplicitous, then that would probably be another hint at YG's true identity.

[Phewdi]

First off, thanks to partners in crime Dr. Pepper and Florina Stark.

The title is just what this thread is intended to hash out: What possible clues and foreshadowing we can gather from the food (and drink) that GRRM chooses to incorporate in the novels.

We'll start with one that, we think, gets frequently misinterpreted: peaches. For a long time, as long as I can remember, the peach and its appearance has been synonymous with "death." We think we might have a better interpretation — the idea that peaches are synonymous with denial, obliviousness and youthful ignorance and a sense of invincibility.

Renly's peach is where the idea of "death" comes from, but when he eats it, he's facing down Stannis and extremely sure of his victory. That passage is also rife with the idea of summer naivete, the "knights of summer" and an easygoing time that's coming to a close.

Robert and Pycelle both mention peaches in the context of the "good old days," either remembering a romanticized past or thinking of the "fleeing" summer, such as when Robert talks about the south to Ned.

When Joffrey puts her aside, Sansa naively thinks that her troubles are over and remarks about how sweet the food, including peaches, tastes. Afterward she learns that she's not out of the woods yet.

Asha and Qarl enjoy peaches and sex at Deepwood Motte, thinking they're safe in their castle, promptly before the northmen and Stannis arrive to flush them out.

Arya arrives at the Peach Inn with the Brotherhood, thinking her troubles are mostly behind her. The chapter ends with the Hound being caught and her thinking her prayers are answered.

Peaches are served at Joffrey's wedding, when the Lannisters are at the top of their power and have just vanquished Robb Stark. Tyrion is the one who notices the peaches (it's his POV); he's about to be framed for murder.

Dany's arc frequently mentions peaches, such as when Jorah brings her a peach in Vaes Tolloro and she remarks on how sweet it tastes and how wonderful it is to be there, before they have to move on. It's also remarked that the slavemaster in Astapor smells like peaches and it's in this passage that Dany experiences confidence that she can outsmart them.

So we suggest that the peach's code is not one of death, but of confidence, "summer" qualities, innocence, naivete and comfort. But those things do eventually end, sooner or later, like summer. Because death might be part of said downfall, the peach can somewhat be interpreted in that context. But we think there's more to it than that.

The next one is fairly straightforward: the wine. We've already hit on this before, but in short, whenever Arbor red wine is mentioned, there's poison involved (true for Dany's wineseller, Cressen and Joffrey). Whenever you see Arbor gold, be on the lookout for lies and deception.

Next we have boar. This seems to denote regime change or a shift in power. Robert's hunting party goes in search of boar before Bran is defenestrated. Most clearly, Robert is killed by a boar and actually thinks it's a god-sent punishment for his plan to kill Dany; the boar is served at his funeral. In between Yoren's death and being captured by the Lannisters, Arya and her friends discuss hunting boar. Boar is served at the Winterfell harvest feast before the ironborn and Theon take over the castle.

Roose wants boar after hunting wolves while he's at Harrenhal; the castle switches hands again soon, after both literally (Bloody Mummers) and on paper (Littlefinger gets it). This is also about the time that Roose's allegiances are switching or have switched. Sansa has boar with the Queen of Thorns, when the plot is on to assassinate Joffrey. Alerie offers boar to Sansa; the Tyrells are co-opting her. Boar is served at Joffrey's wedding. Cersei eats it with the Stokeworths when plotting against Bronn, only for Bronn to end up on top. Cersei, heh, comes to like boar. Ryman Frey uses boar-baiting to keep his men in line at Riverrun; he ends up getting hanged and popular assumption is that the Freys will lose Riverrun. On the way to the pit fight, a Brazen Beast in a boar helm offers Dany's litter carrier water. A boar gores Barsena in the fighting pit in Meereen before Dany flies off on Drogon and leaves a power vacuum behind. DP points out that the fighting pit chapter, which ends in massive political upheaval, is rife with boars and boar symbolism. Borroq's boar gives Ghost (and Jon) fits on the Wall. Jon, however, tries to prevent Ghost from savaging the boar or fighting the boar. Interestingly, in the Shieldhall, which one might view as the "beginning of the end" of Jon's Wall regime, the boar is conspicuously ... absent.

DP actually looked for boar mentions at the Red Wedding and there are none. After Robb beheads Rickard, Jeyne has Rollam send him boar for dinner and he refuses to eat it. We're wondering if this can thematically suggest that the Red Wedding really wasn't as much of a "regime change" in comparison with the other examples. We have boar at a wedding (the Purple Wedding) already and most of the examples we've used involve people either actually eating boar or expressing a desire or goal to hunt and eat boar. But the standout "regime change" moment for the North does not involve boar, and Robb explicitly turns boar down when it's offered earlier. Our hypothesis is that this can be read as a further contextual, if extremely subtle, clue that the North's goals, operations, ambitions, spirit, etc. are still intact. Likewise, Jon takes steps not to engage a boar, and the boar is also absent during what might otherwise be considered a "regime change" moment for him. Where some view boar-eating or boar-hunting as a sign of power or comfort, Jon avoids a boar confrontation.

We present a new meme: Regime Change Boar.

My God, how ridiculous can you get? How can food possibly help us crack the code of ASoIaF?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My God, how ridiculous can you get? How can food possibly help us crack the code of ASoIaF?

The proposed explanation for that is in the OP you quoted.

[Phewdi]

The proposed explanation for that is in the OP you quoted.

Has GRRM confirmed that hints may lie in food types?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Has GRRM confirmed that hints may lie in food types?

Nope. Which is why I used the word "proposed."

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Has GRRM confirmed that hints may lie in food types?

Just for the record, the number of things in the books where GRRM has not explicitely confirmed that there might be hints hidden in it is basically equal to the total number of things in the books period. Strangely enough, we still continue talking about the books.