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TWOW Character POV Ratios


mystikherb

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When you read the actual SSM or interview in which he stated the no new POV's you'll see that he meant no totally new POV characters (like JonCon). People stating that there are going to be no new POV chapters are exaggerating.

Concerning Jeyne: this is the actuel statement by GRRM (http://i.imgur.com/o9LBNBT.png). He clearly states that we’ll be “definitely hearing more about Jeyne Westerling.” If you read that sentence in the context of the entire statement than that clearly signifies that Jeyne still has an important part to play in the story.

Personally, I think she and the BF might turn up in the Neck (the BF is definitely going there IMHO, Jeyne might go to. We need a POV chapter in the Neck. The best candidates are the BF and Jeyne).

I don't see why we would need a POV chapter in the Neck. I also don't see the value of Jeyne being a POV character, plud they killed her in the show and I think GRRM wouldn't have allowed them to do that if she had THAT important of a role to play. If there's one character promoted, it will be Loras, since I can just about guarantee that he is not dying at Dragonstone. He's up to something else, either in the Stormlands or the Reach.

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I don't see why we would need a POV chapter in the Neck. I also don't see the value of Jeyne being a POV character, plud they killed her in the show and I think GRRM wouldn't have allowed them to do that if she had THAT important of a role to play. If there's one character promoted, it will be Loras, since I can just about guarantee that he is not dying at Dragonstone. He's up to something else, either in the Stormlands or the Reach.

The importance of Jeyne Westerling doesn’t really lie in things she does herself, her importance lies in the things she witnesses.

D&D decided to kill Talisa because firstly it would provide a cheap shock to some book readers (also they made her pregnant on the show, she had to die or have a miscarriage there) and secondly because of the fact that from a television PoV it would make more sense to have someone who actually takes part in the action to witness these events (the BF is also a beloved character and a badass. Talisa was neither).

And we need a PoV chapter in the Neck. Firstly because then we finally get to meet HR (and his wife. In fact after reading the excellent HR+AD theory I’m more interested in his wife than in HR himself). Secondly, we’ll finally learn what’s up with Robb’s will (Combined with info on the Northern conspiracy if that actually exists) and perhaps we’ll finally learn what happened with Ed Dayne and Ned Starks bones.

Thirdly, the faith of the BF and Jeyne Westerling an sich is already very interesting and a PoV from them would tell us a lot .

Finally, it is highly likely that with all those people present in the Neck (the BF, the crannogmen, Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont and their northerners and possibly Ed Dayne and his part of the BwB) who aren’t fond of the Freys (They murdered family members and soldiers of the BF, GG and MM. They killed the crannogmens liege lord and the son of their lords best friend combined with the centuries old feud between the Freys and the crannomen, etc.) it’s highly likely that we’ll see an attack launched from the Neck on either the Twins or the prison convoy Jaime wants to set up. From a strategic point of view it would make sense for the Neck party to attack the Twins before the prison convoy reaches it. It would be totally unexpected and if they succeed they would dish out a killer blow to the Freys and not only free many captive Northern and Riverland lords but also Roslyn who is carrying Edmure’s child.

Personally, I think that a PoV from the BF is most likely. But from a dramatic point of view I think that Jeyne could be more interesting because GRRM hasn’t got a PoV character like her (but we already have several warrior badasses). Wild cards for Neck PoV’s are Ed Dayne and Hot Pie.

I too think that Loras isn’t dead. And he also might get a PoV. However, if he hasn’t discovered anything on Dragonstone (I hope not because that would be a major cop out) I don’t really see what he could be doing in the Reach and the Stormlands that is important enough to deserve a PoV of his own (A Faegon-Tyrell alliance isn’t going to happen IMO. So why a Tyrell PoV in Faegons camp). He might grab a lift from the Redwyne fleet to the reach but what point would it serve to the story for Loras to travel there, only to be put down by Euron and his Ironborn (it would be cool to see from his PoV but what would it ad).

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The importance of Jeyne Westerling doesn’t really lie in things she does herself, her importance lies in the things she witnesses.

D&D decided to kill Talisa because firstly it would provide a cheap shock to some book readers (also they made her pregnant on the show, she had to die or have a miscarriage there) and secondly because of the fact that from a television PoV it would make more sense to have someone who actually takes part in the action to witness these events (the BF is also a beloved character and a badass. Talisa was neither).

And we need a PoV chapter in the Neck. Firstly because then we finally get to meet HR (and his wife. In fact after reading the excellent HR+AD theory I’m more interested in his wife than in HR himself). Secondly, we’ll finally learn what’s up with Robb’s will (Combined with info on the Northern conspiracy if that actually exists) and perhaps we’ll finally learn what happened with Ed Dayne and Ned Starks bones.

Thirdly, the faith of the BF and Jeyne Westerling an sich is already very interesting and a PoV from them would tell us a lot .

Finally, it is highly likely that with all those people present in the Neck (the BF, the crannogmen, Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont and their northerners and possibly Ed Dayne and his part of the BwB) who aren’t fond of the Freys (They murdered family members and soldiers of the BF, GG and MM. They killed the crannogmens liege lord and the son of their lords best friend combined with the centuries old feud between the Freys and the crannomen, etc.) it’s highly likely that we’ll see an attack launched from the Neck on either the Twins or the prison convoy Jaime wants to set up. From a strategic point of view it would make sense for the Neck party to attack the Twins before the prison convoy reaches it. It would be totally unexpected and if they succeed they would dish out a killer blow to the Freys and not only free many captive Northern and Riverland lords but also Roslyn who is carrying Edmure’s child.

Personally, I think that a PoV from the BF is most likely. But from a dramatic point of view I think that Jeyne could be more interesting because GRRM hasn’t got a PoV character like her (but we already have several warrior badasses). Wild cards for Neck PoV’s are Ed Dayne and Hot Pie.

I too think that Loras isn’t dead. And he also might get a PoV. However, if he hasn’t discovered anything on Dragonstone (I hope not because that would be a major cop out) I don’t really see what he could be doing in the Reach and the Stormlands that is important enough to deserve a PoV of his own (A Faegon-Tyrell alliance isn’t going to happen IMO. So why a Tyrell PoV in Faegons camp). He might grab a lift from the Redwyne fleet to the reach but what point would it serve to the story for Loras to travel there, only to be put down by Euron and his Ironborn (it would be cool to see from his PoV but what would it ad).

there's no reason we can't learn of any of those things or meet HR from another pov, and TBH I think that most of those things are more the hopes of stark fans, then actual things that will happen, (I highly doubt the crannogmen are launching an attack on the twins, if anyones gonna do that it will far more likely be the bwb, don't believe jeyne westerling is alive, and I don't think BF is heading for the neck, he's far more likely be heading to the eyrie), if we assume BF isn't going to the neck, then the 2 main povs there are galbart glover and maege mormont (hot pie isn't in the neck and we have no idea where ed dayne is) and they've been there for a while, so why not have their povs in affc?

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there's no reason we can't learn of any of those things or meet HR from another pov, and TBH I think that most of those things are more the hopes of stark fans, then actual things that will happen, (I highly doubt the crannogmen are launching an attack on the twins, if anyones gonna do that it will far more likely be the bwb, don't believe jeyne westerling is alive, and I don't think BF is heading for the neck, he's far more likely be heading to the eyrie), if we assume BF isn't going to the neck, then the 2 main povs there are galbart glover and maege mormont (hot pie isn't in the neck and we have no idea where ed dayne is) and they've been there for a while, so why not have their povs in affc?

I could see Blackfish showing up in an early Sansa chapter and giving us the story of how he got away, idk how else we could run across him fittingly

Also i want the Barristan Tyrion meetup to be told from Barristans POV

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9 Tyrion (a couple chapters in Meereen, a couple in transit to Westeros, a few at Casterly Rock, and add a couple just cause George likes him)

8 Daenerys (2 Dothraki, 2 Meereen, the rest returning to/in Westeros)

6 Arya (about three for more training, about three returning to/in Westeros)

6 Sansa (covering the events in the Vale, assuming Littlefinger's plans finally get into gear)

6 Melissandre (primarily for wall/north of the wall updates, dies reviving Jon in her final chapter at the end of the book)

5 Arianne (two that we know of before meeting Aegon, three showing Aegon's movements)

5 Sam (probably all in Oldtown, but this leaves him a lot to do in the last book, as I predict that he needs to get to Horn Hill with Gilly, encounter his father at some point, meet Jorah somehow and relay Jeor's final words, and finally reunite with Jon)

5 Davos (??)

5 Theon (mainly so we know what's going on with the battle of Winterfell and its aftermath, but I assume Davos will also give us insight into that)

4 Bran (??)

4 Jaime (2 in the Riverlands, 2 at KL)

4 Cersei (I'm a bit confused as to how early in the book the trial is gonna be, especially if Jaime is involved)

3 Barristan (add me to the list of people thinking/hoping that he will die in Meereen)

3 Victarion (two in Meereen, then he can be covered by other character's POV's for the most part, then one more wherever he ends up by the end of the book)

2 Damphair (not sure what he's doing, but I'm sure it can be covered/reflected on within two chapters)

2 Asha (??)

1 Jon Connington (Arianne will cover Aegon's actions. JonCon can have one just to reveal something about Rhaegar or someone, and then die during one of of the battles.)

1 Areo Hotah (just to let us know something about Darkstar)

0 Jon (revived at the end of the book)

0 Brienne (if she survives BWB, she can just remain with Jaime and be covered by his chapters)

79 in total.

I say this is good but not 100%.

Theon will die so subtract for him. Maybe add a few more Dany and Sam then?

I think also that JonCon will not die in a random and Jaime will not take part in Cersei's trial.

Finally, I don't know if there will be no Jon Snow chapters. We might have a few.

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there's no reason we can't learn of any of those things or meet HR from another pov, and TBH I think that most of those things are more the hopes of stark fans, then actual things that will happen, (I highly doubt the crannogmen are launching an attack on the twins, if anyones gonna do that it will far more likely be the bwb, don't believe jeyne westerling is alive, and I don't think BF is heading for the neck, he's far more likely be heading to the eyrie), if we assume BF isn't going to the neck, then the 2 main povs there are galbart glover and maege mormont (hot pie isn't in the neck and we have no idea where ed dayne is) and they've been there for a while, so why not have their povs in affc?

1) The BF going to the Eyrie would be fucking dumb. LF is the new boss there and although he probably does not hate the BF as much as he hated Hoster he’s still a Lannister supporter (or at least as far as the BF knows).

On top of that how would he get there? The snow and especially the Mountain clans would make it impossible for one man to go there all by his self.

2) WTF are you talking about? Jeyne Westerling is alive and kicking.

3) Which other PoV’s? And the point for the BF and Jeyne is that it’s dramatically more interesting than GG and MM. Ed Dayne and Hot Pie would also be more interesting but since their presence in the Neck is less likely they are called “wildcards”.

4) The Neck is the most likely destination. BF is bound by the Tully’s word (family, duty, honor). His honor and his sense of duty require him to keep on fighting.

At the same time he wants to protect his remaining family members as much as possible. There are only a limited amount of possibilities that fill those specific requirements and almost all of those have a very slim chance of success (some are near suicidal).

Going to the Neck is the BF best hope to achieve his goals.

Firstly, the Neck is close by and the road to it isn’t nearly as dangerous as going to the Eyrie. Secondly, the loyalty of the men he’ll find there stands above questioning.

The Crannogmen are among the staunchest of Stark loyalists, they are led by a Lord with close personal ties to the Starks, the Crannogmen already have a centuries old feud with House Frey and as far as the BF knows the Lord of the Neck hasn’t got kids in captivity that can be used for blackmail. Besides the crannogmen there are some really pissed off Northern warriors at Greywater Watch (especially MM since her daughter was slain at the RW).

If he was to go anywhere else (the Eyrie or the Riverland lords) he would have a far higher chance to be captured and sold to the Lannisters.

Thirdly, by going to the Neck he would gain the advantage of surprise. Nobody in story expects him to go there. And the armies of the Neck are pretty much still intact (I don’t think that they lost many men fighting against the Ironborn). A war party of Crannogmen and Northern warriors (perhaps BwB to) lead by an experienced scout like the BF with the advantage of surprise on their side could inflict a lot of damage to Lannister/Frey interests.

Fourthly, the BF needs Robbs will. If he wants to fight the Lannisters and their allies he needs to negate Roose’s claim on the North by showing Westeros that Robb declared Jon as his heir.

With the men he finds in the Neck he would either attack the Twins or the prisoner convoy that sets out from the Twins to transfer the Frey prisoners into Lannister custody. Freeing the lords captured at the RW would be a huge setback for the Lannisters (e.g. if the Greatjon gets out for instance the Umbers can stop the pretend and turn fully against Bolton). But the real zinger would be the capture of Roslyn and her (unborn) baby. Roslyns child is the rightful heir to Riverrun, if the BF frees it than he also protects his family since he knows that the child would never be save in enemy hands. The child would also be a great rallying for the River Lords (most of whom do not want to work for the Lannisters.

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I don't think the BF is heading up to the Veil either.....first....its damn neear impossible to get to assuming he's on foot ....and 2nd he'd never make it there by himself as the hill clans would feed his manhood to the goats.....I'ts almost an impossiblitly that he'd make it there in the middle of the snowy season. His only options are the neck or the BWB....now considering tom o sevens was at riverrun It's a possiblility he told Blackfish about zombie cat and told him where he could find them ....the neck is much further north and much more of a possibility of him being in the open and getting caught..I think logic dictated he would try to find the bwb.....the veil is an impossibility especially with cold and snow....and the neck is just too far to risk being caught....

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1) The BF going to the Eyrie would be fucking dumb. LF is the new boss there and although he probably does not hate the BF as much as he hated Hoster he’s still a Lannister supporter (or at least as far as the BF knows).

On top of that how would he get there? The snow and especially the Mountain clans would make it impossible for one man to go there all by his self.

2) WTF are you talking about? Jeyne Westerling is alive and kicking.

3) Which other PoV’s? And the point for the BF and Jeyne is that it’s dramatically more interesting than GG and MM. Ed Dayne and Hot Pie would also be more interesting but since their presence in the Neck is less likely they are called “wildcards”.

4) The Neck is the most likely destination. BF is bound by the Tully’s word (family, duty, honor). His honor and his sense of duty require him to keep on fighting.

At the same time he wants to protect his remaining family members as much as possible. There are only a limited amount of possibilities that fill those specific requirements and almost all of those have a very slim chance of success (some are near suicidal).

Going to the Neck is the BF best hope to achieve his goals.

Firstly, the Neck is close by and the road to it isn’t nearly as dangerous as going to the Eyrie. Secondly, the loyalty of the men he’ll find there stands above questioning.

The Crannogmen are among the staunchest of Stark loyalists, they are led by a Lord with close personal ties to the Starks, the Crannogmen already have a centuries old feud with House Frey and as far as the BF knows the Lord of the Neck hasn’t got kids in captivity that can be used for blackmail. Besides the crannogmen there are some really pissed off Northern warriors at Greywater Watch (especially MM since her daughter was slain at the RW).

If he was to go anywhere else (the Eyrie or the Riverland lords) he would have a far higher chance to be captured and sold to the Lannisters.

Thirdly, by going to the Neck he would gain the advantage of surprise. Nobody in story expects him to go there. And the armies of the Neck are pretty much still intact (I don’t think that they lost many men fighting against the Ironborn). A war party of Crannogmen and Northern warriors (perhaps BwB to) lead by an experienced scout like the BF with the advantage of surprise on their side could inflict a lot of damage to Lannister/Frey interests.

Fourthly, the BF needs Robbs will. If he wants to fight the Lannisters and their allies he needs to negate Roose’s claim on the North by showing Westeros that Robb declared Jon as his heir.

With the men he finds in the Neck he would either attack the Twins or the prisoner convoy that sets out from the Twins to transfer the Frey prisoners into Lannister custody. Freeing the lords captured at the RW would be a huge setback for the Lannisters (e.g. if the Greatjon gets out for instance the Umbers can stop the pretend and turn fully against Bolton). But the real zinger would be the capture of Roslyn and her (unborn) baby. Roslyns child is the rightful heir to Riverrun, if the BF frees it than he also protects his family since he knows that the child would never be save in enemy hands. The child would also be a great rallying for the River Lords (most of whom do not want to work for the Lannisters.

1: BF lived and worked in the eyrie, for several years and Im not suggesting he'd reveal himself when turning up there, but he's likely already got connections there so he can hide out there and gather support, whereas he knows no-one in the neck and doesn't know the location of deepwood motte so would likely just get lost. (also where's your evidence LF hated Hoster, TBH I think LF would love to have BF on his side it means he could orchestrate the conflict even more and could use him to help put sansa back in WF) 2. sorry confused her with talisa, but I still don't believe the theory that she wasn't in riverrun when Jaime was there 3. I mean't potential povs, and seeing as I said that I highly doubt BF and jeyne are there, you'd be right that there would be no-one interesting to have a pov from there, who isn't already there and could have had a pov in affc. there are several reasons for not going to the neck. he has no idea where the crannogmen or deepwood motte are in the neck, so he could get lost for days searching for them, once he gets there he has no connections among the crannogmen and they have no reason to trust him, so I doubt he'd be able to band them together, even if he does there are only a few crannogmen not enough really to fight a full scale war. Robbs will would also be of little use to him as the crown put roose Bolton there, and I think it is likely that the will of the iron-throne probably overrides any other contract in westeros, and even if it did the crown would never recognise it as it would make jon KITN and therefore a traitor to the iron throne, (also stannis seems to be fighting a perfectly good battle against roose in the north without robb's will) also why not go to somewhere like seagard which is closer to riverrun than the neck iirc as yet not under lannister control, where he knows he'll find men who know him and are loyal directly to him rather than KITN, perhaps an even better idea would be to go where the lannisters don't expect him at all by heading west into the westerlands. where-ever BF goes there's also no reason to have a pov from him as all of what you said he would do could have been found out in another pov IMO if what you said does happen it would be far more effective I think for us to hear it as a surprise in another pov's chapter the same way we didn't see any of robb's battles and so were surprised when we heard about him winning things or marrying jeyne
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It's all speculation, of course, but I think the fact that we have not had many Arya/Bran/Sansa chapters means we will have MORE of those characters in this book, rather than less. Those characters haven't done as much while the other arcs caught up. I'd guess at least 6 chapters for each of those three.

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1: BF lived and worked in the eyrie, for several years and Im not suggesting he'd reveal himself when turning up there, but he's likely already got connections there so he can hide out there and gather support, whereas he knows no-one in the neck and doesn't know the location of deepwood motte so would likely just get lost.

1)
Again how do you suppose he’d get there? The Mountain clans in the passes would chop Brynden to shreds before he could reach the Vale.

2)
The BF was the knight of the Bloody Gate. We don’t know if his duties allowed him to spend much time in the Eyrie. And if any Lord was to take him in they should fear for reprisals from the Lannisters, on the other hand, if they were to exchange the BF to the Lannisters they would gain considerably. The Lords of the Vale have no reason to be loyal to him.

3)
“Deepwood Motte”? Are you freaking kidding me? The castle of HR is named Greywater Watch (you know that moving castle) and the whole point is that the BF does not have to know where it is. In ASOS when Robb sends his men away to seek Lord Howland he explicitly states that the Crannogmen would find
them
and bring them to their Lord.

4)
He knows GG and MM in the Neck so what your claiming there is not true.

(also where's your evidence LF hated Hoster, TBH I think LF would love to have BF on his side it means he could orchestrate the conflict even more and could use him to help put sansa back in WF)

It’s called logic. Hoster spurned him when he wanted to marry Cat. Hoster was the one who removed him from Riverrun back to the Fingers he so loathed.

Now, granted he would not hate the BF that much since he was a bit of a father figure but LF would not want him there. If Sansa had access to the BF his power over hear would be broken, the BF would also be a liability to his plans since he would protect SR and he would probably be too eager to go to war. The BF is also a reminder to LF time in Riverrun, when he was weak. LF will not like it. Also, the BF would soon cause trouble since I don’t think he would care much for the man LF has become.

2. sorry confused her with talisa, but I still don't believe the theory that she wasn't in riverrun when Jaime was there

I’m not sold on that either. That’s why I think that a BF PoV in the Neck is more likely.

3. I mean't potential povs, and seeing as I said that I highly doubt BF and jeyne are there, you'd be right that there would be no-one interesting to have a pov from there, who isn't already there and could have had a pov in affc. there are several reasons for not going to the neck. he has no idea where the crannogmen or deepwood motte are in the neck, so he could get lost for days searching for them, once he gets there he has no connections among the crannogmen and they have no reason to trust him, so I doubt he'd be able to band them together, even if he does there are only a few crannogmen not enough really to fight a full scale war.

There are so many faults and false assumptions in this part I don’t know how to begin.

1)
About getting lost and “Deepwood Motte” in the Neck see the first 3)

2)
Even if he got lost for days, The Neck is still closer than the Eyrie where you think he’ll go.

3)
“The Crannogmen have no reason to trust him?” WTF? He’s the BF. Their Kings Uncle, the leader of his scouts, one of his closest advisors, who bravely held out in Riverrun in defiance of their Kings mortal enemies (Freys and Lannisters) after which he made a daring escape. The Crannogmen are among the staunchest of Stark loyalists, they would not hesitate for a minute to help the BF.

4)
So, you know how many Crannogmen there are? Is that you George?

5)
He isn’t waging a full scale war. It would be one daring raid on the Twins or a well prepared ambush for the Prison convoy that would allow him to free his prisoners (massive blow to the Lannister cause and the morale of the hostile troops) after that the BF would retreat for the Neck and hold out there. Good luck trying to best the Crannogmen on their own turf.

Robbs will would also be of little use to him as the crown put roose Bolton there, and I think it is likely that the will of the iron-throne probably overrides any other contract in westeros, and even if it did the crown would never recognise it as it would make jon KITN and therefore a traitor to the iron throne, (also stannis seems to be fighting a perfectly good battle against roose in the north without robb's will)

Have you read the books at all? There was this small rebellion in which the North rose up and tried to form a separate Kingdom. Remember that? Well that rebellion died whit the RW, the North was subdued mostly because there were no Starks left to rally to. And then Roose produced Farya.

With the will the BF could give the North a Stark to rally to (Jon) and BF’s Stark would override Boltons Stark since their King decreed that Jon was his successor.

also why not go to somewhere like seagard which is closer to riverrun than the neck iirc as yet not under lannister control, where he knows he'll find men who know him and are loyal directly to him rather than KITN, perhaps an even better idea would be to go where the lannisters don't expect him at all by heading west into the westerlands. where-ever BF goes there's also no reason to have a pov from him as all of what you said he would do could have been found out in another pov IMO if what you said does happen it would be far more effective I think for us to hear it as a surprise in another pov's chapter the same way we didn't see any of robb's battles and so were surprised when we heard about him winning things or marrying jeyne

1)
Seagard has fallen to Black Walder Frey (I suggest you reread AFFC)

2)
The BF adheres to the Tully adagio “Family, duty, honor” in the Westerland he could do nothing to stay true to that Tully adagio. And he would have a much higher chance at being caught.

3)
And a PoV from the BF wouldn’t be surprising? Most readers would be caught off guard and fistpump because the BF has returned. Besides the issue is broader here. I have given perfectly good reasons why the BF should go to the Neck (reasons that are in tune with what we know of the character), you are denying all of those. I admit the BF does not have to become a PoV, but he will go to the Neck. And again from a dramatic point of view it would be a waste to have something like the liberation of the Greatjon or the sacking of the Twins go unnoticed by a PoV.
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As for the Blackfish, I think he will show up in a random PoV as a surprise, similar to the surprise Jorah appearance in ADwD when he kidnaps Tyrion. Possibly in a Jaime PoV and with some interaction with Catelyn? That could be interesting...

Small crackpot. Catelyn & the BWB find the Blackfish injured somewhere or dead etc. and Catelyn sacrifices herself, and The BF becomes the new leader of the BWB.

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1)
Again how do you suppose he’d get there? The Mountain clans in the passes would chop Brynden to shreds before he could reach the Vale.

I don't know I'm just making suggestions?

2)
The BF was the knight of the Bloody Gate. We don’t know if his duties allowed him to spend much time in the Eyrie. And if any Lord was to take him in they should fear for reprisals from the Lannisters, on the other hand, if they were to exchange the BF to the Lannisters they would gain considerably. The Lords of the Vale have no reason to be loyal to him.

by that same reasoning neither do the lords of the neck, the lords of the vale wanted to go to war on robb's side, I imagine knight of the bloody gate is a pretty respected position, and many lords would've seen him and got to know him whenever they came to the eyrie

3)
“Deepwood Motte”? Are you freaking kidding me? The castle of HR is named Greywater Watch (you know that moving castle) and the whole point is that the BF does not have to know where it is. In ASOS when Robb sends his men away to seek Lord Howland he explicitly states that the Crannogmen would find
them
and bring them to their Lord.

why should what applies to robs men apply to bf, robb's men were sent there upon his orders and HR was notified of their coming, HR doesn't know if BF is coming, so he'd only find him by luck and the neck is a big area which I imagine isn't completely inhabited, the chances of them just randomly finding BF would be pretty low.

4)
He knows GG and MM in the Neck so what your claiming there is not true.

hadn't thought of that

It’s called logic. Hoster spurned him when he wanted to marry Cat. Hoster was the one who removed him from Riverrun back to the Fingers he so loathed.

Now, granted he would not hate the BF that much since he was a bit of a father figure but LF would not want him there. If Sansa had access to the BF his power over hear would be broken, the BF would also be a liability to his plans since he would protect SR and he would probably be too eager to go to war. The BF is also a reminder to LF time in Riverrun, when he was weak. LF will not like it. Also, the BF would soon cause trouble since I don’t think he would care much for the man LF has become.

I don't think LF's power over sansa would be broken by BF, considering sansa has never met BF in her life before. Also seeing as BF is so eager to avenge robb and IIRC he doesn't know the content's of robb's will, his next move would be to make sansa queen in the north, so if he knows LF is working to do this, even if he doesn't trust LF I imagine he'd choose to work with him

I’m not sold on that either. That’s why I think that a BF PoV in the Neck is more likely.

There are so many faults and false assumptions in this part I don’t know how to begin.

1)
About getting lost and “Deepwood Motte” in the Neck see the first 3)

2)
Even if he got lost for days, The Neck is still closer than the Eyrie where you think he’ll go.

I'm not suggesting he go to the eyrie because of it's proximity

3)
“The Crannogmen have no reason to trust him?” WTF? He’s the BF. Their Kings Uncle, the leader of his scouts, one of his closest advisors, who bravely held out in Riverrun in defiance of their Kings mortal enemies (Freys and Lannisters) after which he made a daring escape. The Crannogmen are among the staunchest of Stark loyalists, they would not hesitate for a minute to help the BF.

BF is not a stark, although he may have helped robb in wo5k, but I don't think most northerners feel indebted to him the way you make it out. also I'm making assumptions here but I don't think the crannogmen were all that well informed off what went on during the war, they would've probably been told what robb required of them, I doubt he sent them great long letters telling them all the awesome things BF did for him during the war, the Crannogmen may also be stark loyalists, but TBH they haven't done all that much as part of wo5k, and I think HR doesn't wanna expend his forces in such a way. the crannogmen could've easily attacked the twins themselves and they haven't chosen to, why would BF turning up make them change their minds?

4)
So, you know how many Crannogmen there are? Is that you George?

No I don't know exactly, But I think due to the likely difficulty of living in the swamp in the neck, the fact that they've mainly used guerrilla warfare so far, as well as that there's never mentioned to be tons of them and the reeds aren't a big house, suggests that there are only a few of them to me.

5)
He isn’t waging a full scale war. It would be one daring raid on the Twins or a well prepared ambush for the Prison convoy that would allow him to free his prisoners (massive blow to the Lannister cause and the morale of the hostile troops) after that the BF would retreat for the Neck and hold out there. Good luck trying to best the Crannogmen on their own turf.

firstly, I'm not sure what prison convoy you're talking about, and secondly I imagine the twins would be well defended so this would be very hit and miss in terms of it's success, also while it would be a blow to the lannisters I don't think it would really affect the morale of their troops.

Have you read the books at all? There was this small rebellion in which the North rose up and tried to form a separate Kingdom. Remember that? Well that rebellion died whit the RW, the North was subdued mostly because there were no Starks left to rally to. And then Roose produced Farya.

With the will the BF could give the North a Stark to rally to (Jon) and BF’s Stark would override Boltons Stark since their King decreed that Jon was his successor.

firstly, I don't like being rhetorically insulted as if I'm some moron just because I can't remember every detail of robb's campaign inside out, if you wanna have discussion then fine but keep it civil please. and In answer to what you said I don't remember that the BF was ever told what was in the will

1)
Seagard has fallen to Black Walder Frey (I suggest you reread AFFC)

2)
The BF adheres to the Tully adagio “Family, duty, honor” in the Westerland he could do nothing to stay true to that Tully adagio. And he would have a much higher chance at being caught.

I was just making a suggestion

3)
And a PoV from the BF wouldn’t be surprising? Most readers would be caught off guard and fistpump because the BF has returned. Besides the issue is broader here. I have given perfectly good reasons why the BF should go to the Neck (reasons that are in tune with what we know of the character), you are denying all of those. I admit the BF does not have to become a PoV, but he will go to the Neck. And again from a dramatic point of view it would be a waste to have something like the liberation of the Greatjon or the sacking of the Twins go unnoticed by a PoV. ( firstly what do you mean the BF has returned, I don't remember him dis-appearing. also while you do have your reasons for why he might go to the neck, they are not definititvely what is going to happen in TWOW unless you're GRRM you don't know, I've suggested alternatives which admittedly aren't as well thought through-but I haven't spent so long thinking this through, also I don't think it would be a dramatic waste not to see this, as I don't think this would necessarily be very interesting to read, and seeing as winds is gonna be a packed book anyway I'd much rather we don't lose time off existing povs for a new one, and I think GRRM won't add any because of this and because it's also very late in the game to add another storyline- we're going into the final act.)

I've answered your points in the quote but I wasn't able to change the colour of what I've written so it might be a little difficult to figure out which is my response. (my last counter-argument is in brackets) in which case I'm sorry. also, I've tried to be as calm and un-hostile when answering your comments as possible, although I do strongly disagree with what you've said. you have as much right to your reasonings and opinion as I do to mign though, so if you're not convinced of mign after my comments I don't want to be further dragged into a long drawn out flame war, and I'm sure you don't either, so if you dis-agree instead of posting a long retaliation post just say so and hopefully we can amicably agree to dis-agree, make a truce and move on as friends

:cheers:

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It's all speculation, of course, but I think the fact that we have not had many Arya/Bran/Sansa chapters means we will have MORE of those characters in this book, rather than less. Those characters haven't done as much while the other arcs caught up. I'd guess at least 6 chapters for each of those three.

:agree:

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I don't expect we'll see 80 chapters, or anything close to that. GRRM will publish when he has a publishable chunk, and since a bunch of stuff is about to hit the fan, I don't think he'll have to wait till he has 80 chapters and 1500 manuscript pages before he has a sizeable chunk.

We'll get the 10 confirmed chapters (Aeron, Arianne x2, Barristan x2, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Victarion, Theon), and perhaps 40 more.

I predict the +40 chapters will likely include:

- Sansa (multiple)

- Daenerys (multiple)

- Davos

- Bran

- Cersei (multiple)

- Tyrion (multiple)

- Theon

- Aeron

They following will not have POVs, though they may appear in other POVs:

- Jaime

- Brienne

More than this I cannot venture any predictions.

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I don't expect we'll see 80 chapters, or anything close to that. GRRM will publish when he has a publishable chunk, and since a bunch of stuff is about to hit the fan, I don't think he'll have to wait till he has 80 chapters and 1500 manuscript pages before he has a sizeable chunk.

We'll get the 10 confirmed chapters (Aeron, Arianne x2, Barristan x2, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Victarion, Theon), and perhaps 40 more.

I predict the +40 chapters will likely include:

- Sansa (multiple)

- Daenerys (multiple)

- Davos

- Bran

- Cersei (multiple)

- Tyrion (multiple)

- Theon

- Aeron

They following will not have POVs, though they may appear in other POVs:

- Jaime

- Brienne

More than this I cannot venture any predictions.

Except that he has been quoted saying it will be 1500 manuscript pages. And, usually he low balls these estimates. I think he has to have at least 60 chapters to wrap up the Meereenese knot, Iron Islands plot line, (F)Aegon campaign, Cersei's trial and fall. Also, fans will be pissed without more info on Sansa, Bran, and Arya. I think the only plot line he could settle off screen is the whole Hotah/Darkstar debacle.

Also, why do people think BF is headed to the Eyrie? It's abandoned atm 'member?

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Except that he has been quoted saying it will be 1500 manuscript pages.

That's just his way of sticking to his 7-books prediction, while still predicting it will take at least 3000 pages to complete the series. It's also his way of saying : Get off my back; I have lots of pages to go; it is not done yet.

And, usually he low balls these estimates.

Absolutely correct. I believe it will take him significantly MORE than 3000 pages to finish the series. What I questioned was that this will necessarily be devided into 1500 page chunks.

I don't think he will necessarily wait til he has 1500 pages. Not, at least, after 5+ years have passed and has 1000 pages, a significant chunk of story progress, and a reasonable cut-off point has been achieved.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Daenerys - 8 - Getting a khalasar, Battle at Slavers Bay, and returning to Westeros.

Tyrion - 7 - I miss the Starks, but George and almost everyone loves Tyrion so yeah. He's probably gonna get a lot.

Melisandre - 7 - to say what's happening at the Watch... UnDead people like Jon and Catelyn don't get POV's.

Sansa - 5 - I hope we get a lot. I love her development.

Jaime - 5 - he'll probably be given a task by Catelyn.

Arianne - 5 - Her adventures and then she'll cover Aegon's story instead of JonCon POV's

Cersei - 5 - the trial and then she'll likely die soon, maybe late or midway through the book.

Davos - 5 - I really wanna know what's happening with Rickon, and if Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella die, Stannis will get the throne and Davos will reunite with him and cover what's happening in King's Landing.

Samwell - 4 - just a guess, I have no idea where his plot is going.

Barristan - 3 - two were confirmed, then one more and maybe Dany will return and he wont need more.

Bran - 3 - I REALLY hope we get more, but some, of his warging/greenseeing was told through Theon's. So I think we'll see what mysterious things he's up to, through another POV.

Victarion - 2 - two were confirmed, and he'll be with Dany/Tyrion/Barristan, and George will favour Tyrion+Dany POV's over Vic.

Theon - 3 - Battle in the North, and a bit of Stannis before Stannis wins the throne (for a bit).

Aeron - 4 - to show what's happening with Euron.

JonCon - 1 - maybe just one before Arianne meets Aegon.

Hotah - 2 - Just a guess, to show whats happening in Dorne and with Obara, Darkstar, and Doran.

Brienne - 0 - she's with Jaime, and in ADWD she appeared in Jaime's; she didnt get a chapter travelling to him.

Asha - 0 - cause she's with Theon

Jon - 0 - Since GRRM doesn't give POV's for kings, and if R+L=J, and Jon is the AA/PTWP, and may possibly be king at the end, this is where George gets rid of Jon's POV's so it could go with the "kings don't get POV's" `

By the way, I don't know why some people are saying that Jon warged into Ghost. When a warg's true body dies, they are dead, it's mentioned somewhere in ADWD. If Jon is dead, which he most likely is, he wont be able to warg into Ghost. Look at the asoiaf website. I think Melisandre will revive him, and he wont get any more POV's.

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I don't expect we'll see 80 chapters, or anything close to that. GRRM will publish when he has a publishable chunk, and since a bunch of stuff is about to hit the fan, I don't think he'll have to wait till he has 80 chapters and 1500 manuscript pages before he has a sizeable chunk.

We'll get the 10 confirmed chapters (Aeron, Arianne x2, Barristan x2, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Victarion, Theon), and perhaps 40 more.

I predict the +40 chapters will likely include:

- Sansa (multiple)

- Daenerys (multiple)

- Davos

- Bran

- Cersei (multiple)

- Tyrion (multiple)

- Theon

- Aeron

They following will not have POVs, though they may appear in other POVs:

- Jaime

- Brienne

More than this I cannot venture any predictions.

Jamie or Brienne would need at least one POV. We have noone else with the bwB so we need at least 1 chapter from them to resolve that pickle. Also, Arya is almost certain to be in, I don't know if you just missed he by mistake. Plus a Mel chapter. She has only had one in the whole series, and Martin said he didn't like putting Arys Oakhearts chapter in as it was a standalone.

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Jamie or Brienne would need at least one POV. We have noone else with the bwB so we need at least 1 chapter from them to resolve that pickle.

I predict that's it for Jaime & Brienne as POV characters. Their fate is now a mystery. We won't find out about their fates until other POV characters do.

Jaime - or someone or something that looks like Jaime - will return to King's Landing (in the POV of other characters) without anyone finding out what happened to him or Brienne in the interim, though he may give an accounting of himself that may or may not be the truth. A huge hound-helmed character who may or may not be Brienne or Sandor or Lem will also make an appearance.

I have my own ideas about what really happened to them.

Also, Arya is almost certain to be in, I don't know if you just missed he by mistake.

If you look again, you will find I did include her, among the 10 confirmed chapters I cannot venture more than this, since I see no evidence he is ready for her storyline just yet.

Plus a Mel chapter. She has only had one in the whole series, and Martin said he didn't like putting Arys Oakhearts chapter in as it was a standalone.

IIRC, he said he regretted the Arys chapter, because he decided it was unnecessary. He nonetheless wrote a Mel chapter, because he felt it was necessary. He never said 2 Mel chapters were necessary, and if another one is not necessary, he will not write another one.

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