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AGoT Prologue Question - Something left unsaid?


Nucky Thompson

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There is a very important detail in considering the Wildling atop the tree: she remained there after dying (Will saw her dead before she was wightified and climbing down). This lends some insight on the manner of her death: if she was shot by an Other-arrow, she would have most likely fallen on the ground - either from inertia forces due to being shot, or from losing her balance. If she died from hypothermia (being cold), she would lose her ability to hold on to the tree and its branches - and would, again, fall on the ground. This also applies if she died "of fright" - only in that case, she would have fallen on the ground before actually dying (it would be hard to keep your balance while having a heart attack). The only conventional possibility would be that she froze to death and at the same time frozen to the trunk of the tree or to the branch she was on. This is dubious at best, since the trunk would be round while a branch would have to accumulate a lot of ice - ice that would probably have broken it before someone actually stood on top of it.

This may suggest that something was omitted from the description in the prologue and she was killed in a more physically passive (not an arrow) and biologically not dramatic way. Therefore, the duel between the Other and Royce may have been just for show and not the primary modus operandi of the Others. They may have been "laughing" not only due to superiority but also because it was unusual for them to actually stab someone. All this may have something to do with the actual process of wightification: her death would have to preserve her ability to actively hold on to the tree. Maybe Will didn't see well and she was already equipped with the blue eyes of the wights, but if she was not, then this would mean that the wightification is a gradual process which either leads to control of the person even before dying or it is completed in stages after the death and the blue eyes are on only upon its completion.

What I mean is actually pretty much what Tormund said about poking a mist with swords: if we regard the Others as a cold mist which kills instantly and without the need to actually stab the victim, they seem undefeatable by conventional means. However, in Waymar's case, they were surely going to win, so the mist materialized in the form of humanoids with swords instead - in order to fight an actual human with a sword in the old-fashioned way. This mistness killing ability of theirs may have been implied in the explicit description of the relatively warm weather not allowing hypotermia on its own, and in the seemingly odd bit of information about someone dying atop a tree without any real contact with the Others, all the while remaining atop the tree.

A lot of unfounded assumptions piled on unfounded assumptions.

Yes - that's why the text was formatted differently (italic and smaller-sized letters).

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If she was in a lookout position, she would have been in a relatively secure position (she would not fall out/have to move much, lest she been seen). She could easily freeze to death in said position. There does not need to be a lot of ice to freeze skin or leather or fur to tree.

If she was wightified up the tree, she would not need an especially controlled descent, she could just fall and then get up again.

There has been much debate about the range of the cold/mist from the Others/WW.

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I don't have any input as to how they died, but I find it unlikely they froze to death. at no other time in the books when the Others come has it been cold enough to freeze anyone. And we have multiple occurrences, in much colder weather also. There are Sam, Gilly, all the NW at the fist, Bran, Meera Jojen, Hodor... No one froze.

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What may also be interesting is the way that the battle is fought: at first, Ser Waymar's sword is able to block the Other's sword, albeit with weird sounds resulting from this. However, once the Other has overcome Royce's defensive capabilities and he is stabbed, the next time their swords clash, Royce's sword immediately breaks. One may argue that "he put his entire weight behind it", but is this the reason it broke? Their blades have already clashed several times and apart from the sounds, not a single piece of steel had broken. Could it actually have finally broken because the Other, or whatever controls the frequency at which the Others "materialize", changed the setting from "make weird sounds" to "shatter steel objects"? if this were the case, it would explain the manner of death of the scout: if the Others are essentially the "killing cold mist", their conventional "forms" - the ones holding swords - are not important and are "used" only for pastimes like killing too proud rangers from the Vale.

And another seemingly minor detail may not be a coincidence: the Others let one of the rangers escape. Why? To strike terror in humanity? Because they were tired of killing people and let one go for a change? Maybe. This doesn't further their agenda at all. It even may be counterproductive since his story may lead to bolstering of the Night's Watch's defense capabilities. But it is notable that the same deserter is caught in the North and faces beheading. It is this beheading in particular which leads to the Stark group leaving Winterfell and finding the dead direwolf and its offspring on their way home. One may argue that whoever "sent" the direwolves (Bloodraven), also masterminded the occasion upon which they would meet with Lord Stark and his sons. In order to do that, he may have purposefully bid the Others to leave one of the rangers unharmed in order for him to flee in terror and to set his masterplan in motion. It is precisely Summer who halts the failed assassination attempt and thus allows Bran to find his way to the COTF's cave. If this line of reasoning is correct, then this would be the first direct connection between Bloodraven and the Others.

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What may also be interesting is the way that the battle is fought: at first, Ser Waymar's sword is able to block the Other's sword, albeit with weird sounds resulting from this. However, once the Other has overcome Royce's defensive capabilities and he is stabbed, the next time their swords clash, Royce's sword immediately breaks. One may argue that "he put his entire weight behind it", but is this the reason it broke? Their blades have already clashed several times and apart from the sounds, not a single piece of steel had broken. Could it actually have finally broken because the Other, or whatever controls the frequency at which the Others "materialize", changed the setting from "make weird sounds" to "shatter steel objects"? if this were the case, it would explain the manner of death of the scout: if the Others are essentially the "killing cold mist", their conventional "forms" - the ones holding swords - are not important and are "used" only for pastimes like killing too proud rangers from the Vale.

And another seemingly minor detail may not be a coincidence: the Others let one of the rangers escape. Why? To strike terror in humanity? Because they were tired of killing people and let one go for a change? Maybe. This doesn't further their agenda at all. It even may be counterproductive since his story may lead to bolstering of the Night's Watch's defense capabilities. But it is notable that the same deserter is caught in the North and faces beheading. It is this beheading in particular which leads to the Stark group leaving Winterfell and finding the dead direwolf and its offspring on their way home. One may argue that whoever "sent" the direwolves (Bloodraven), also masterminded the occasion upon which they would meet with Lord Stark and his sons. In order to do that, he may have purposefully bid the Others to leave one of the rangers unharmed in order for him to flee in terror and to set his masterplan in motion. It is precisely Summer who halts the failed assassination attempt and thus allows Bran to find his way to the COTF's cave. If this line of reasoning is correct, then this would be the first direct connection between Bloodraven and the Others.

Very deep analysis, but personally, I think you may be reading too much into this. As I recall, the Ranger who escaped wasn't with Waymar Royce and Will, but further away tending the horses. What's more, he also had misgivings about their venture and urged Royce to turn back. Since he was left to tend the horses, he at least had a chance of escape, and may even have turned and left before the Others arrived and killed Royce. And I just noticed that Will is also up a tree when the Others arrive, and nothing happens to him apart from the cold and fear. This suggests to me that it was wights that killed the scout up the tree, or Will would have been killed with Royce

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you may be reading too much into this

It may very well be the case, but with the limited information at our disposal and no new book for quite a while, such seemingly unfounded conjectures are the only possible source of new information about what's going to happen next.

I find it hard to believe that the escaped ranger did so against the will of the Others. His chances of escaping successfully with the Others in active pursuit are nil, or about the same as Waymar's chances of defeating the Other in one-on-one combat. They let him go. This is confirmed further by the show - despite the changes, it was emphasized there on how the Others let a ranger escape. Regarding Will, in the book, he wasn't killed in an unconventional way, because apparently he was planned to be executed by Waymar's wight: perhaps the last part of the Others' amusement?

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Hmm, that's a good point about killing time between this and the next book. I only started reading last December so currently on a re-read to catch anything I missed.

You could be right about them allowing.....the Ranger who's name I forgot, about allowing him to escape. However it is also plausible that he could escape in 2 conditions:

1) Being already nervous about their ranging and knowing this means nothing good, he had forsaken his Brother's and deserted BEFORE the Others arrive.

2) The horses were tethered far enough away that he has the time to escape from them after they kill Raymar.

As a slightly related topic: how do you think he manages to desert? Doesn't he need to pass through Castle Black, Eastwatch or Shadow Tower to get past the wall?

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  1. She saw the Others kill the party and stayed up in the tree... for far longer than a typical scout would, and died of exposure. The Others were still there waiting for the Night's Watch so it was probably much colder than she expected. ie: A scout would probably stay in the tree for 3 hours, and swap out with another scout. But if she was scared of the Others, she probably stayed up there for many hours.
  2. Who said an Other didn't just climb the tree and stab her?

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Hmm, maybe there's a way to go around Eastwatch?

That would require a boat. There's a way that involves climbing through a gorge near the Shadow Tower, and then there's the gate at the Nightfort.

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Two notes on Waymar's sword breaking:

1) Waymar takes a wound, touches the wound, then touches his sword again, which gets blood on the sword. Blood can be a serious magical contribution in ASOIAF.

2) The temperature continues to decrease during the fight between Waymar and the Other, getting low enough to have the steel break from an impact.

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Two notes on Waymar's sword breaking:

1) Waymar takes a wound, touches the wound, then touches his sword again, which gets blood on the sword. Blood can be a serious magical contribution in ASOIAF.

2) The temperature continues to decrease during the fight between Waymar and the Other, getting low enough to have the steel break from an impact.

The first point seems very plausible. It is noted that he holds the sword with both hands when he tries to retaliate. As for the second one - I'm a bit sceptical, since if it was cold enough for steel to break, humans would be long dead by freezing.

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Fun fact--wooden bows don't work so hot in extremely cold northern climates. Horn bows and bone bows are preferable (it has to do with humidity). Perhaps the magic of the Others can only shape the things of winter (temperature, ice) and not the organic material required to make a bow.

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The first point seems very plausible. It is noted that he holds the sword with both hands when he tries to retaliate. As for the second one - I'm a bit sceptical, since if it was cold enough for steel to break, humans would be long dead by freezing.

Partially. But it's the impact that would shatter the sword - and that happens way earlier. A decent arctic cold doesn't harm humans as long as they have dry clothes, but steel tools (or blades) get really brittle and may shatter if used.

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The cold mists...

Remember what Tormund says to Jon in Dance? 'Can you sword cut cold?', or something to that effect. :uhoh:

:bowdown: :bowdown: KISS’DBYFIRE: YES! The mists are mentioned consistently with the arrival of the White Walkers.

Let us add another means of controlling elements of the weather, Bran Stark, who learns from Osha that the powers of the old gods send the winds, which, in turn, causes the leaves to rustle. When the leaves rustle, Osha says it is the gods answering Bran’s prayers: but Osha translates for him. She says Robb is marching south, not north; Osha laments that Robb is going the “wrong way”.

The grey mists carried on the wind rustles the tree leaves; hence, the wildling watch is freeze-dried, similar to packaging in “freeze dried ice”. Which staunches the blood flow and ultimately ends the life of the victim.

Martin mentions the WIND in the prologue a minimum of ten times, which catalogues the early presence of the WIND as a character in his/her own right.

A few examples follow:

A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things” (2)

“You have a chill?” Royce asked.

“Some . . . the wind, m’lord” (4), says Will.

Frost fallen leaves whispered past them” (4). The “whisper” is a verb that appears in conjunction with the “rustling” leaves, and those who are intuitive will be able to comprehend the messages that they are sent later in the novels

“Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy IS THE COLD” (4). :grouphug:

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