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Small Questions v 10012


Stubby

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Sorry, but is it known how large the Brotherhood without Banners is?

At least approximately? Are there about 50-300 or rather 2000-15 000 ?

And second, how large is the army of the Tyrells? I believe Renly had 80k under his banners, but at least 20k must have been Stormlords?

1st question nobody really knows. Full time fighters i would say about 300 but when you add in people who scout, who inform for them and who provide for them it would be closer to 5,000.

2nd question 85,000+ if you take out 20,000 from Renly's army and add in Mace Tyrell's 10,000 then that's 70,000. Also Oldtown most likely could provide another 10-15,000

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Not my question. He was well armed and there is no place in the plot that would cause him to lose his weapons on the way to the bearpit

since when was he armed. why would they have given him weapons while taking him back to kingslanding? when he left harrenhall did the give him any weapons?

Sorry, but is it known how large the Brotherhood without Banners is?

At least approximately? Are there about 50-300 or rather 2000-15 000 ?

And second, how large is the army of the Tyrells? I believe Renly had 80k under his banners, but at least 20k must have been Stormlords?

Well, the BwB is a very large but disorganize force throughout the riverlands. their numbers depend on how you define them. as for the men who stay with beric and fight with him, it doesn't seem like he really has more than a 100 at a time. but their influence goes beyond their fighting powers. the smallfolk help them, inform for them, keep them hidden and safe. they also have men who seem to be "inducted" into the BwB but don't necessarily stay with Beric and instead go about doing their own thing and helping the brotherhood their own way. this is shown since the men who capture Arya were part of the BwB and were loyal to Beric, but they werent fighting with him and it took them a long time to find where he was. So in terms of the fighting force the brotherhood maintains at any one time, it's very small. But the amount of people who are loyal to the brotherhood seems to be very large. mostly smallfolk are loyal to them, but there's also lady smallwood. maybe some other smaller lords/ landed knights, who knows.

the reach has the largest army in to 7kingdoms. as AnotherHedgeKnight said they prob gave Renly like 60k and there will still 10k at highgarden. even with all those men the reach hardly seems to be depleted. in affc, while mace is with most of the men at storms end, margery says that her brothers at Higharden could raise 20k men within a month to fight the ironborn. When you factor in oldtown, one of the most powerful houses in Westeros (other than the Great Houses), i don't think it's a stretch to say the Reach can field 100k men.

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Hmm this might be a stupid question but which kingdoms do they mean when they say the seven kingdoms, I can think of eight: North, riverlands, vale, iron isles, stormlands, reach, dorne and westerlands. Which one is not counted as one of the seven kingdoms?

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Hmm this might be a stupid question but which kingdoms do they mean when they say the seven kingdoms, I can think of eight: North, riverlands, vale, iron isles, stormlands, reach, dorne and westerlands. Which one is not counted as one of the seven kingdoms?

The Kingdom of the North

The Kingdom of Mountain and Vale

The Kingdom of Isles and Rivers

The Kingdom of the Rock

The Kingdom of the Reach

The Kingdom of the Stormlands

and Dorne

Isles and Rivers were one and the same at one time.

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I wonder who wrote that Wiki page. I could have sworn I read some where that Dorne was distinct from the 7K. But I don't have anything to back it up.

I think it was separate until Daeron the Good wasn't it? Aegon I unified all but Dorne, then they were later brought in by marriage. And most of the maps of the "7" kingdoms usually show 9 kingdoms.
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I think it was separate until Daeron the Good wasn't it? Aegon I unified all but Dorne, then they were later brought in by marriage. And most of the maps of the "7" kingdoms usually show 9 kingdoms.

It was one of the original 7 kingdoms but did not get conquered by Aegon. Aegon conquered 6/7 kingdoms. Not bad!

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Hmm this might be a stupid question but which kingdoms do they mean when they say the seven kingdoms, I can think of eight: North, riverlands, vale, iron isles, stormlands, reach, dorne and westerlands. Which one is not counted as one of the seven kingdoms?

that's not stupid it's actually very confusing how it's called the seven kingdoms. there's eight areas ruled by different lord paramounts which you listed. there's also another distinct area, the crown lands, which are under direct rule of the king. im not sure if it's ever explained how the name came to be, but i can think of two possibilities. the name must have either existed from before Aegon's conquest, or after his conquest, and there's a way that the creation of the name "7 kingdoms" makes sense in both cases.

If the name came to be before Aegon's conquest, that could be because there actually were only 7 kingdoms when Aegon invaded; Dorne, the Reach, the Stormlands, the Westerlands, the iron islands, and The North. (the might have been refered to by what ser creighton said but it's the same thing)

This seems the most likely way that the name came to be. The Riverlands and the crownlands had never been independent areas before the conquest. there were constant wars going on between the southern kingdoms over these lands. the area that now constitutes the riverlands was under control of the iron islands when Aegon came to conquer. I think the crownlands were part of the stormlands, but i'm not sure. but yeah, aegon came to westeros when there were only seven kingdoms, and he conquered six of them (dorne remained intependent for quite a while because they're badass. not even dragons can make the dornish kneel boi!!!) It makes sense that people referred to westeros as "the seven kingdoms" for a while before aegon conquered. similar to how people refer to "the nine free cities."

it could also be possible that the name came to be after aegon conquered i gusse. this could be because he originally ruled over 7 areas that were ruled by lord paramounts, and he could've refered to these as "kingdoms" i gusse? dorne was not in the kingdom at first, and crownlands but that wouldn't could as a "kingdom" probablly. makes more sense that the name had already existed though.

but yeah it's very confusing. idk why the origin of the name isn't made more clear in the books.

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Hmm this might be a stupid question but which kingdoms do they mean when they say the seven kingdoms, I can think of eight: North, riverlands, vale, iron isles, stormlands, reach, dorne and westerlands. Which one is not counted as one of the seven kingdoms?

From Mr. Martin:

LindaElane

Could you please name the seven kingdoms?

GRRM

The 7 kingdoms usage of course dates from the time of Aegon the conqueror. At that time, there was the King in the North (1), the King of Mountain and Vale (2), the King of the Rock (3), the King of the Reach (4), the Storm King (5), the King of the Iron Islands, who also ruled the riverlands (6), and the kingdom of Dorne, which was ruled by a prince (7).

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From Mr. Martin:

LindaElane

Could you please name the seven kingdoms?

GRRM

The 7 kingdoms usage of course dates from the time of Aegon the conqueror. At that time, there was the King in the North (1), the King of Mountain and Vale (2), the King of the Rock (3), the King of the Reach (4), the Storm King (5), the King of the Iron Islands, who also ruled the riverlands (6), and the kingdom of Dorne, which was ruled by a prince (7).

So does that mean that Aegon was just being big in the head and saying Dorne was his when it really wasn't?

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So does that mean that Aegon was just being big in the head and saying Dorne was his when it really wasn't?

Being that Aegon separated the Iron Islands & the Riverlands, technically he did have seven kingdoms, not including Dorne. Also Dorne was/is ruled by a Prince/Princess & could legitimately not be classed as a kingdom.

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.....

did you read this or..

Nah, I didn't bother. Srsly though, what I meant was that Aegon could legitimately claim that he ruled 7 kingdoms (the north, the iron islands, the riverlands, the westerlands, the vale, the stormlands & the reach) and that HE could pass Dorne off as something less than a kingdom by pointing to the styling used by it's ruler. Happy now Sarcasmo? :cool4:

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I think it was separate until Daeron the Good wasn't it? Aegon I unified all but Dorne, then they were later brought in by marriage. And most of the maps of the "7" kingdoms usually show 9 kingdoms.

The 7 kingdoms pre date Aegon, after he conquered them they became 9 territories. The River lands and Isles were split and the crown lands were created. The make up the country before the Andels is hazzy it was 7 kingdoms but we don't know the exact political makeup of all 7. Dorne was a colition on Andal states 1000 years ago but it was still the Kingdom of Dorne and that's how they chose to govern themselves. Westeros was settled 12,000 years ago, and 4 thousand years later we know they hade these 7 distinct kingdoms.

Although I hear the timeline will be changed somewhat, that we may be looking at something closer to 2000 years old rather than 8000 years old.

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Nah, I didn't bother. Srsly though, what I meant was that Aegon could legitimately claim that he ruled 7 kingdoms (the north, the iron islands, the riverlands, the westerlands, the vale, the stormlands & the reach) and that HE could pass Dorne off as something less than a kingdom by pointing to the styling used by it's ruler. Happy now Sarcasmo? :cool4:

shit man you rolled me. yeah you're right that does make sense. i gotta watch my sarcasm from now on. save it for people who won't prove me wrong.

what i don't understand if Aegon came up with the name 7 kingdoms or if it was like already a name. if Aegon made the name then what you said is probably how he justified the name. i thought that the name existed beforehand but idk it makes sense that he made up the name too. so he could be like "yeah im the ruler of not just one kingdom, but seven kingdoms. what of it broski. naw dorne aint a kingdom the dude's a prince don't worry about it."

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Nah, I didn't bother. Srsly though, what I meant was that Aegon could legitimately claim that he ruled 7 kingdoms (the north, the iron islands, the riverlands, the westerlands, the vale, the stormlands & the reach) and that HE could pass Dorne off as something less than a kingdom by pointing to the styling used by it's ruler. Happy now Sarcasmo? :cool4:

8 the crown lands which he also created which were his own land and the lands of House Targaryen, Targs had their own Banner men and everything. The King directly rules those lands.

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shit man you rolled me. yeah you're right that does make sense. i gotta watch my sarcasm from now on. save it for people who won't prove me wrong.

what i don't understand if Aegon came up with the name 7 kingdoms or if it was like already a name. if Aegon made the name then what you said is probably how he justified the name. i thought that the name existed beforehand but idk it makes sense that he made up the name too. so he could be like "yeah im the ruler of not just one kingdom, but seven kingdoms. what of it broski. naw dorne aint a kingdom the dude's a prince don't worry about it."

I'm almost certain that the name "seven kingdoms" is pre-Aegon. Most conquerors will appropriate local customs & beliefs as a way of legitimizing their own rule, he just had to shoe-horn it a bit.

8 the crown lands which he also created which were his own land and the lands of House Targaryen, Targs had their own Banner men and everything. The King directly rules those lands.

The Crownlands are a problem. It seems to me that (as you say) they were the lands of House Targaryen but that the liege lord was actually the Lord of Dragonstone. Since the custom developed for the Crown Prince to be named Lord of Dragonstone, it seems to me that the Targs actually set up a situation where a succession crisis was more likely. By that I mean that King A names brother B his heir & also names him Lord of Dragonstone. King A has a boy-child (Prince C) who becomes his heir, however brother B has lands, a stronghold & an army and may not give up power easily. Brother B spreads rumours that Prince C is not trueborn, war, blood, death etc.

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Being that Aegon separated the Iron Islands & the Riverlands, technically he did have seven kingdoms, not including Dorne. Also Dorne was/is ruled by a Prince/Princess & could legitimately not be classed as a kingdom.

Yes it was, it was only after the Rhoynar came, that they started using the Essos style Prince, as oppose to the Westeros style of King.
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