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R+L=J v 58


Stubby

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I hope it isn't the problem. As I know, the first one who posts on the new edition, posts the Reference guide... I hope you don't think I crossed the line, and if you do, please accept my appologies... I meant no harm...

That is why I added the notes, so that if anyone else copied and pasted it, they would know where I had been, and what steps to follow. ;) I hope that we can keep getting the first poster on a new thread to copy it over.
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This, and also just because she was able to "calmly" judge Robert (a guy she wasn't super into) doesn't mean we can expect a teenage girl to be logical about love. For me it's not a character inconsistency...it's hormones.

Now, I can't answer why her type is a moody harpist as opposed to a beefy hunksicle, but the heart wants what it wants.

It's called complexity. And it's what many intelligent women crave.

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Problem is Ned himself thinks her wolf blood brought her to an early grave. More or less openly blaming her recklessness. In judging her out-of-character-ness, we are all a bit like Robert: oblivious to the steel (and the wolf blood) underneath.

But nothing says that her wolf blood made her act on a love interest. It could just as well be that Lyanna acted for other reasons, and that she got involved in things bigger than herself, and Rhaegar.

Even if we cannot say that Lyanna acted out of character, what to make of Rhaegar? We have more information on Rhaegar's character than on Lyanna. Most opinions on Rhaegar seem to be positive, and he is portrayed as bookish and brooding. Even Ned, does not seem to hold a grudge, and I think that if Ned held Rhaegar accountable for the events that took place, he would hold a grudge.

Whether there was or wasn't coercion, if Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna, he'd still have been responsible for the things that followed. As the Crown Prince, a married man, as a father and Lyanna's senior. I do think Ned would have held him responsible. All of these should be ground enough for resentment. We have no hint however, that Ned feels this way toward the Prince. IMO, there was bigger things going on.

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This, and also just because she was able to "calmly" judge Robert (a guy she wasn't super into) doesn't mean we can expect a teenage girl to be logical about love. For me it's not a character inconsistency...it's hormones.

Now, I can't answer why her type is a moody harpist as opposed to a beefy hunksicle, but the heart wants what it wants.

Love is the death of duty.

Most probably true for both Lyanna and Rhaegar.

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Yep, to nit pick at teh little subtle clues that GRRM buried all over the place as he chuckled to himself.
This. I'm new to this forum and I like the idea of discussing theories here instead of with my girlfriend, who fails to see reason. Damn you GRRM! You're breaking my relationship apart!
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Yep, to nit pick at teh little subtle clues that GRRM buried all over the place as he chuckled to himself.

You know, I'm not sure why but that makes me think of Alys Karstark 'a girl in grey, riding on a dying horse' to escape an unwanted betrothal...Parallels can be found where one expects to find them I suppose... :dunno: it's a matter of how much importance one wishes to give the stories within a story.

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One of the reasons, if not the definitive reason, Lyanna didn't like Robert was he was known to have slept with other women, and by the time he was betrothed to Lyanna he already had a bastard in the Vale, Mya Stone.

This is her quote about her thoughts on Robert, so she'd believed she couldn't change Robert's whoring.

I think Lyanna's dislike of Robert was more than just his sleeping around. Robert didn't seem to be interested in getting to know Lyanna. They were at the Tourney at Harrenhal together but instead of hanging out with his bride-to-be he drank all night and played dice with his friends. Women generally don't like that type of behavior. Add that to the general whoring around behavior and Robert sounds like the typical meathead jock common in 90s movies. That guy rarely gets the girl in the end.

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I think Lyanna's dislike of Robert was more than just his sleeping around. Robert didn't seem to be interested in getting to know Lyanna. They were at the Tourney at Harrenhal together but instead of hanging out with his bride-to-be he drank all night and played dice with his friends. Women generally don't like that type of behavior. Add that to the general whoring around behavior and Robert sounds like the typical meathead jock common in 90s movies. That guy rarely gets the girl in the end.

Yes, As Ned said-

You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert. You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.

I think if they had got married, Lyanna would've surprise Robert and showed him "the iron underneath".

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This. I'm new to this forum and I like the idea of discussing theories here instead of with my girlfriend, who fails to see reason. Damn you GRRM! You're breaking my relationship apart!

And...you are quite sure she's not lurking on these forums somewhere? You never know who's behind the screen.

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I think Lyanna had Robert pegged pretty well. In the end he chose to love the idea of her without being troubled to have really known her. If Robert would have married Lyanna, she eventually wouldn't have been enough for him.

I think they call that a "trophy wife". Which is how he ended up treating Cersi but worse since she was the consolation "trophy wife".

Robert's treatment of her would have made Rhaegar seem more appealing than he may have been. Some relationships sound better on paper than they actually are. Or perhaps Lyanna always intended to return to winterfell, but when she got pregnant she decided to keep the baby instead of drinking moontea. Many of the Stark's behavior seem indicate a pattern of "their heart was in the right place" when they make decisions but they didn't think the consequences of those decisions out all the way through. If Lyanna had a fling with Rhaegar and returned, then I think that the Baratheon/Stark wedding would still have taken place.

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Ultimately, I believe that Lyanna's Prince was kinder than Sansa's Prince, and that Rhaegar did betray his wife with her, and that they married at some point. But I don't think that there was anything much like a 'kidnapping' or 'elopement' planned, or that their story was the foundation of the war. I think the story of a kidnapping was some sort of alibi - a spur of the moment kind of thing created to 1) protect Lyanna's honor 2) counter rumors of a possible conspiracy, 3) have a convenient motive for starting the war – although this was put to a halt with Brandon's imprisonment.

Never thought about that aspect of the story.That's an interesting theory as it kind of explains in a way the execution of the two Starks.

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Many of the Stark's behavior seem indicate a pattern of "their heart was in the right place" when they make decisions but they didn't think the consequences of those decisions out all the way through.

With a few exceptions, the Starks are devoted to duty, which is admirable, but not good for their health.
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Greymoon, those are very interesting points. I admit that a lot of Lyanna and Rhaegar's actions don't seem to make sense or to have been, well, honorable for lack of a better word. I do think there is something odd about the Dornish behavior in all this and their loyalty to the Targ dynasty. J. Stargaryen, I think, brought this up in an earlier thread.

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I think Lyanna's dislike of Robert was more than just his sleeping around. Robert didn't seem to be interested in getting to know Lyanna. They were at the Tourney at Harrenhal together but instead of hanging out with his bride-to-be he drank all night and played dice with his friends. Women generally don't like that type of behavior. Add that to the general whoring around behavior and Robert sounds like the typical meathead jock common in 90s movies. That guy rarely gets the girl in the end.

the nerd got her in the end :lmao:

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Love is the death of duty.

Most probably true for both Lyanna and Rhaegar.

:agree: Much so.

Martin tells the story using cycles and inrony, among other minor things, and he tell us about Lyanna' story in ASOS, even subtlety.

We come from a background of Arya and Gendry (Robert's son) getting along since 1,500 pages ago. This is the paralell of Lyanna betrothed to Robert.

First, they are caught by the BwB. Arya flees on horseback, but Harwin catches her and tells like: you ride like a northman, as Lyanna did. Martin's message: watch out, here comes a cycle, and I'll tell Lyanna's story through Arya.

Then, there come two chapters in succesion, one by Arya, the other by Jon.

A strange woman makes prophecies. Martin: I told you to watch out. (btw, I wonder what song it was.)

Martin's irony: Gendry shuns King Roberts and Arya tells him off because he was her father's friend. (he was HIS father). Martin you're fucking watching out, aren't you?

Gendry starts kind of an approach, and Arya strongly rejects him. Like playing, she kicks his balls.

And then, please read carefully the lyrics of the song Tom O' Sevens was singing when they come back.

And right then,... Jon enters the Cave of Joy with Ygritte.

Well, some have remembered his thoughts about "his father" in the last thread.

Jon feels guilty by all means, but,... wtf, Ygritte was there, very real,... bugger honour and duty.

Most sorry, folks, but Jon is a bastard south of the Wall. Well, he shouldn't be Jon Snow, but Daemon Waters, who cares?

The supreme irony is that he's legitimate north of the Wall. Rhaegar left Elia back and stole Lyanna at swordpoint. Not only legal but most romantic as well, according to wildling uses. More ironic still: wildlings don't care much about legitimacy. After all, his destiny is not the IT, but being the President of the Free Republic of the People of Outer North (Fropon), or whatever.

Eta: President in Fropon! Har!

Eta2: Since now on, you can refer to Jon as PiF, har.

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I am not sure if this has been noted before, I tried searching through the sections for it, so tell me if it has. Just last night, I was rereading the end of A Game of Thrones, when I came upon a passage I had not noted before. It is in Dany's dreams, which we already know sometimes have prophetic properties. In it, she is seeing the faces of all the kings who came before her:

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the fade raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. --AGOT 629

Tourmaline can have different colors, but about 95% of it is a dark grey that looks black. It is called schorl.

In AGOT, Bran thinks:

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black --AGOT 13

I've seen it argued before that Jon's eyes are a dark purple, but what if they aren't? What if Jon's eyes actually are black...just like some of his Targaryen ancestors?

This also puts a whole new spin too on all those A+J= J, C, and T theories.

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