R+L=J v 58

[Jon Icefyre]

At what point does a thought need its own thread?

Hahaha well R+L=J is on thread 58 so naturally it's gonna go off topic at some point or another....

[Ygrain]

To tell the truth, I'm convinced that Lyanna has given birth to Jon. There's a strong clue pointing to it.

I tried to show the difference between a a clue or hint and an evidence. An elementary logic discards any of those hints as an evidence.

It's not me who's prentending to have evidences.

But those (not only you) who pretend to have an evidence, they must show it, not just say it.

The bed of blood thing is not an evidence.

The bed of blood means birthing bed and Ned thinks of Lyanna in birthing bed twice. If you want more evidence, ask GRRM for a birth certificate.

[Greymoon]

Adulterer implies that Lyanna and he did not marry, KG presence suggests otherwise. And it would be in-character for Rhaegar to marry a woman to avoid dishonoring.

And neglecting the polygamy for a moment, Rhaegar did not sleep around before Lyanna, as it happens, he was in a loveless political marriage, the same she was going to be put into.

And I don't know why you would call Lyanna a home-wrecker without knowing details, she might've given the incentive, or Rhaegar might've gone ahead and indeed kidnapped her when hearing of the betrothal, in the latter scenario her intent is not the decisive factor.

And on the whole Aegon discussion, I don't really understand why it is necessary to slavishly find a shaky explanation for why Aegon was unrecognizable, when there is a plausible one in regard to the narrative, the whole (f)Aegon plot-arc stands or falls with the unrecognizability, in order for (f)Aegon to be not outright perceived as a fake (in-story), the circumstances of his death hypothetically have to allow a survival.

Actually, Rhaegar could be an adulterer in Elia's eyes, or in the eyes of the public, whether he married Lyanna or not. That's just arguing semantics... On another note, it occurred to me, that in most cases of non sororal polygyny, the first wife usually has to 1) give her agreement, and might even 2) chose the bride. I'm not sure how relevant this is for Westeros....But it's interesting all the same for the implications concerning Elia.

[Ygrain]

Actually, Rhaegar could be an adulterer in Elia's eyes, or in the eyes of the public, whether he married Lyanna or not. That's just arguing semantics... On another note, it occurred to me, that in most cases of non sororal polygyny, the first wife usually has to 1) give her agreement, and might even 2) chose the bride. I'm not sure how relevant this is for Westeros....But it's interesting all the same for the implications concerning Elia.

Aye, Elia is an enigma, and I hope that we will learn more about her. After all, if Rhaegar was very fond of her even if he didn't love her, it tells volumes, IMHO - while love can be blind, I've never heard the same about friendship.

I don't think that the contemporary rules of RL polygyny would apply for a royal family enjoying an almost godlike status; plus, since we know so little about Elia, her consent cannot be ruled out.

[Raining Blood Magic]

Better start a new thread with the new information we have from the Winds of Winter chapters. There are most definitely some new clues about Jon's parents in the sample chapters.

[Jon Icefyre]

Better start a new thread with the new information we have from the Winds of Winter chapters. There are most definitely some new clues about Jon's parents in the sample chapters.

Which samples?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Better start a new thread with the new information we have from the Winds of Winter chapters. There are most definitely some new clues about Jon's parents in the sample chapters.

And which samples would these be?

[Jory Cassel]

Actually, Rhaegar could be an adulterer in Elia's eyes, or in the eyes of the public, whether he married Lyanna or not. That's just arguing semantics... On another note, it occurred to me, that in most cases of non sororal polygyny, the first wife usually has to 1) give her agreement, and might even 2) chose the bride. I'm not sure how relevant this is for Westeros....But it's interesting all the same for the implications concerning Elia.

Of course it's semantics, the meaning of the word "adulterer" simply does not fit if they were married.

Aye, Elia is an enigma, and I hope that we will learn more about her. After all, if Rhaegar was very fond of her even if he didn't love her, it tells volumes, IMHO - while love can be blind, I've never heard the same about friendship.

I don't think that the contemporary rules of RL polygyny would apply for a royal family enjoying an almost godlike status; plus, since we know so little about Elia, her consent cannot be ruled out.

I fully agree, we do know that Elia would not have survived another pregnancy according to the Maesters, so her giving her consent is not too far-fetched, I think.

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to Aerys paranoia vs. reality, I wonder if it isn't it possible that Lewyn Martell did betray Rhaegar. While Rhaegar may not have been a seasoned commander, I think all Robert was good at was swinging his hammer.

I believe it was Ned that was the strategist and he was honorable, so maybe some foul play did take place by the time Rhaegar and Robert met.

And we know now from GRRM that it wasn't LF masterminding anything in the rebellion as he was on his island recovering.

[Jon Icefyre]

Going back to Aerys paranoia vs. reality, I wonder if it isn't it possible that Lewyn Martell did betray Rhaegar. While Rhaegar may not have been a seasoned commander, I think all Robert was good at was swinging his hammer.

I believe it was Ned that was the strategist and he was honorable, so maybe some foul play did take place by the time Rhaegar and Robert met.

And we know now from GRRM that it wasn't LF masterminding anything in the rebellion as he was on his island recovering.

Hmmm interesting perspective indeed, but how would he have betrayed him while mad Aerys was holding Elia hostage? Also Rhaegar winning at the Trident was in Lewyn's best interest considering the possibility of the rebel army advancing to KL with the intention of sacking the city that would've still held his niece captive. At the end of the day, no matter the dissent, Rhaegar winning at the Battle of Trident and returning to KL would've been a much better outcome for Lewyn than leaving his niece at the mercy of the rebel army....

[Alia of the knife]

But how would he have betrayed him while mad Aerys was holding Elia hostage? Also Rhaegar winning at the Trident was in Lewyn's best interest considering the possibility of the rebel army advancing to KL with the intention of sacking the city that would've still held his niece captive. At the end of the day, no matter the dissent, Rhaegar winning at the Battle of Trident and returning to KL would've been a much better outcome for Lewyn than leaving his niece at the mercy of the rebel army....

I don't know, because that's what I would tend to think, but when I got to thinking about it, something just bothered me.

It may be nothing, but there is something to Aerys that makes me think he may not always have been wrong.

Edit: Going back to our favorite topic, "The War of the Roses," Warwick was an astute, capable man, (and not that I'm equating Lewyn Martell with Warwick, though Lewyns great niece would attempt to assume the role of "Queen maker"), Warwick was all those things until his pride was wounded, and then he made some incredible errors in judgement.

[Jory Cassel]

And we know now from GRRM that it wasn't LF masterminding anything in the rebellion as he was on his island recovering.

Do you have a link?

[Alia of the knife]

Do you have a link?

Sorry, working on it.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't know, because that's what I would tend to think, but when I got to thinking about it, something just bothered me.

It may be nothing, but there is something to Aerys that makes me think he may not always have been wrong.

Ya I totally get what you're saying, well Aerys was probably right in believing Varys warning about the TOH, though I find it odd that he chooses to ignore Varys warning right before the sack of KL and instead follows maester Pycelle's advice. Even a teenage Jamie knew Pycelle was full of shit when he told Aerys to open the gates lol.

[Ghost's Shadow]

That LF thing is from the Q&A from yesterday, I think. Post-reading.

[Alia of the knife]

I know this is not on the current debates but in regards to the theory that LF may have been tied to a possible letter sent to Brandon or Robert about Lyanna does not seem viable any longer as Martin stated last night LF did not have a whole hell of a lot to do wit the rebellion.

I know it's been discussed here before so I thought I would post what may be an answer to that question. And the duel with Brandon stark happend right before the rebellion and he was probably at how recovering from it during the rebellion, according to Martin.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=S8U6FQ6bH7Q

@Jory,

Had trouble pulling it, so here is the link from the post.

[Jory Cassel]

@Jory,

Had trouble pulling it, so here is the link from the post.

thanks, this indeed suggests that LF was not involved, the wording is still a bit ambiguous, not so much the "probably", but the questioner asking what Littlefinger was doing during Robert's Rebellion - there is a sizeable time gap between Brandon riding into the Red Keep and Arryn raising his banners. Clearer phrasing on Martin's part and a more precise question might've helped^^

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

thanks, this indeed suggests that LF was not involved, the wording is still a bit ambiguous, not so much the "probably", but the questioner asking what Littlefinger was doing during Robert's Rebellion - there is a sizeable time gap between Brandon riding into the Red Keep and Arryn raising his banners. Clearer phrasing on Martin's part and a more precise question might've helped^^

Yes, but he did say that LF "almost died" which is the first I'd heard that. Very serious wounds that laid him low "during" the Rebellion probably wouldn't have been in abeyance in the gap, no? I've been a huge proponent of the LF was the messenger theory, and this seemed concrete enough for me to abandon that line of thought.

The relevant question is at 7:40, just in case anyone wants to skip right to it :)

[Alia of the knife]

Okay, well here is something else, when I was researching the Duchess of Clarence, Georges wife from "War of the Roses," it said when she died, it was two and a half months after the birth of her son, either of consumption or of child bed fever.

I kind of thought child bed fever killed pretty quickly.

[Jory Cassel]

Yes, but he did say that LF "almost died" which is the first I'd heard that. Very serious wounds that laid him low "during" the Rebellion probably wouldn't have been in abeyance in the gap, no? I've been a huge proponent of the LF was the messenger theory, and this seemed concrete enough for me to abandon that line of thought.

The relevant question is at 7:40, just in case anyone wants to skip right to it :)

Well, from my understanding he was recovering at RR after the fight, and got sent back via litter after he had impregnated Lysa - in the books, there are two reasons given for sending him away, one being the fight, the other being the pregnancy.

Admittedly, I am not that versed concerning this theory, although I am inclined to believe it (except for the inconsistency that is Ethan Glover). Could you please explain how his severe injury prevented him from misinforming Brandon, when whe was apparently travelling in a litter to the fingers after Hoster threw him out? I always thought his injuries were very bad, anyway (bad armor, litter,..)