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R+L=J v 58


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Of course, I am well aware of that, which is why I balanced Selmy's POV with the fact that when Ned leaves Starfall with a newborn baby, people believe the baby to be Ashara's. However, Jon was - top - a few months old (judging by his age in the books). Hence it also gives an indication that Ashara was rather known to be supposed to have had a baby shortly before Ned left Starfall with Jon. It wouldn't make sense for people to believe Jon could be Ashara's, knowing Jon is roughly the same age as Robb, if she had been pregnant since Harrenhal. I know people of Westeros are sometimes not too well educated, but they can certainly see the difference between a baby who is under 1yo and supposed to be newborn or just a and a baby who is +1 yo

Whoever got Ashara with child didn't do the deed at Harrenhal or he placed a mighty baby in her belly that was only to be born after 18 to 24 months.

As for the TOJ, it was indeed an old garrison that was apparently left unattended for many years, so probably not the best place for a Prince and his paramour to stay.

As to how it was torn to pieces, a fire seems likely. Although wouldn't it likely attract attention? But yes, I didn't portray Ned tearing away the tower with his bare hands (although that'd be very manly and impressive)

That is not stated anywhere in the text, though, and shouldn't be considered a fact.

Aerys didn't send out a search for Rhaegar until after the Battle of the Stony Sept. He sent out Whent to find him (I assume with other knights). Rhaegar returned seemingly without Whent since Whent was at the ToJ.

At the same time, Aerys sent his wife and children (Rhaella and Viserys) to Dragonstone.

What if this is when the Aegon switch happened? Whent smuggles out Aegon then escorts him to the ToJ. Whent remains behind to guard Rhaegar's heirs.

There's definitely a reason the KG stayed at the ToJ when their prince was riding into battle.

Hightower, not Whent.

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Aerys didn't send out a search for Rhaegar until after the Battle of the Stony Sept. He sent out Whent to find him (I assume with other knights). Rhaegar returned seemingly without Whent since Whent was at the ToJ.

At the same time, Aerys sent his wife and children (Rhaella and Viserys) to Dragonstone.

What if this is when the Aegon switch happened? Whent smuggles out Aegon then escorts him to the ToJ. Whent remains behind to guard Rhaegar's heirs.

There's definitely a reason the KG stayed at the ToJ when their prince was riding into battle.

Aerys sent Ser Gerold Hightower to search for Rhaegar, not Whent. Whent was with Rhaegar and Ser Dayne at the Tower of Joy.

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I thought Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone after they found out Rhaegar had lost at the Trident?

And wasn't Dayne and Whent with Rhaegar when he took Lyanna? Hightower was the one who searched for R. If I remember correctly he was there when Rickard and Brandon were assassinated.

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It's just a theory. I read some facts and I try to find the best solution I can.

Somehow, the KG remind me the samurais, and they had failed their shogun.

There had been a war and they hadn't unsheathed their swords, while Aerys and Rhaegar had met violent deaths. They've left kind of a ritual suicide to wash their shame with blood.

It also explains why the Daynes at Starfall didn't have bad feelings with Ned. They knew about Aegon, Jon, AD'S suicide,... Ned just wanted to reach his sister. There's no crime in it.

It's possible that Dayne, Whent and Hightower wanted to commit suicide by Northmen. However, I think it's more reasonable to assume that they didn't know what Ned would do to Jon and when he found him. Remember, the KG knew what happened to Aegon by the time Ned arrived at the TOJ. Thus, they could not be sure that Ned, Robert's right hand man, wouldn't have done the same thing to Jon.

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That is not stated anywhere in the text, though, and shouldn't be considered a fact

Actually, given Jon's age and the description Cat does when she remembers seeing him in WF with his wetnurse, that is pretty much a fact that he must have been born around the end of Robert's Rebellion, yes. Unless we of course start saying we can't believe Jon is actually the age Ned states he is but that he must be a year older. But I fail to see why Ned would lie about Jon's age.

EDIT: If you believe as it is repeatedly stated on the topic that Lyanna died of childbirth fever, birthing Jon, then he is a newborn baby when Ned finds him IMO. + according to Cat's description of the boy and the age proximity with Robb, yes, Ned must have left SF with a relatively newborn baby ;) not a babe that could have been conceived at Harrenhal anyway!

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Actually, given Jon's age and the description Cat does when she remembers seeing him in WF with his wetnurse, that is pretty much a fact that he must have been born around the end of Robert's Rebellion, yes. Unless we of course start saying we can't believe Jon is actually the age Ned states he is but that he must be a year older. But I fail to see why Ned would lie about Jon's age.

EDIT: If you believe as it is repeatedly stated on the topic that Lyanna died of childbirth fever, birthing Jon, then he is a newborn baby when Ned finds him IMO. + according to Cat's description of the boy and the age proximity with Robb, yes, Ned must have left SF with a relatively newborn baby ;) not a babe that could have been conceived at Harrenhal anyway!

It's the fact that Ned leaves Starfall with a baby, that we are not certain about. I think that's what Ygrain meant.

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Actually, given Jon's age and the description Cat does when she remembers seeing him in WF with his wetnurse, that is pretty much a fact that he must have been born around the end of Robert's Rebellion, yes. Unless we of course start saying we can't believe Jon is actually the age Ned states he is but that he must be a year older. But I fail to see why Ned would lie about Jon's age.

EDIT: If you believe as it is repeatedly stated on the topic that Lyanna died of childbirth fever, birthing Jon, then he is a newborn baby when Ned finds him IMO. + according to Cat's description of the boy and the age proximity with Robb, yes, Ned must have left SF with a relatively newborn baby ;) not a babe that could have been conceived at Harrenhal anyway!

You've misunderstood. I do not question Jon's age but his presence at Starfall, or broader knowledge of his presence/existence at Starfall. That is never hinted at anywhere.

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Actually, given Jon's age and the description Cat does when she remembers seeing him in WF with his wetnurse, that is pretty much a fact that he must have been born around the end of Robert's Rebellion, yes. Unless we of course start saying we can't believe Jon is actually the age Ned states he is but that he must be a year older. But I fail to see why Ned would lie about Jon's age.

EDIT: If you believe as it is repeatedly stated on the topic that Lyanna died of childbirth fever, birthing Jon, then he is a newborn baby when Ned finds him IMO. + according to Cat's description of the boy and the age proximity with Robb, yes, Ned must have left SF with a relatively newborn baby ;) not a babe that could have been conceived at Harrenhal anyway!

Hmm could Cat have been misled about Jon's age? Willingly or unwillingly? If Jon was slightly older than Robb 6-12mo, then from Cat's POV it would make Jon a bigger threat to Robb's inheritance. Especially if she thought that Jon was Ned's son. I could see this scenario warranting Cat's distrust of Jon for years. When if legitimized, Jon could unseat her son as heir to winterfell. She would go along with the lie of Jon being younger in order to secure her son's place. It could also explain why Cat was so hurt about Ned allowing him to remain at Winterfell. As if he were flaunting/training Jon to replace Robb.

We hear that Jon is with a wetnurse but that can cover a period of 0-2 years at least right? Cat doesn't describe Jon as being swaddled or wrapped up when she meets him. Does she? I can't recall what she says precisely.

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SORRY Mayura and Ygrain... :blushing: It wasn't my place to intervene.

Cannot speak for Mayura but I have no issue with your comment. No need to apologize :-)

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Hmm could Cat have been misled about Jon's age? Willingly or unwillingly? If Jon was slightly older than Robb 6-12mo, then from Cat's POV it would make Jon a bigger threat to Robb's inheritance. Especially if she thought that Jon was Ned's son. I could see this scenario warranting Cat's distrust of Jon for years. When if legitimized, Jon could unseat her son as heir to winterfell. She would go along with the lie of Jon being younger in order to secure her son's place. It could also explain why Cat was so hurt about Ned allowing him to remain at Winterfell. As if he were flaunting/training Jon to replace Robb.

We hear that Jon is with a wetnurse but that can cover a period of 0-2 years at least right? Cat doesn't describe Jon as being swaddled or wrapped up when she meets him. Does she? I can't recall what she says precisely.

From Cat's own PoV, she believes Jon was conceived during the time she and Ned were separated, and that's after the conception of Robb. And yes, she does say that Jon was in swaddling clothes.

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Hmm could Cat have been misled about Jon's age? Willingly or unwillingly? If Jon was slightly older than Robb 6-12mo, then from Cat's POV it would make Jon a bigger threat to Robb's inheritance. Especially if she thought that Jon was Ned's son. I could see this scenario warranting Cat's distrust of Jon for years. When if legitimized, Jon could unseat her son as heir to winterfell. She would go along with the lie of Jon being younger in order to secure her son's place. It could also explain why Cat was so hurt about Ned allowing him to remain at Winterfell. As if he were flaunting/training Jon to replace Robb.

We hear that Jon is with a wetnurse but that can cover a period of 0-2 years at least right? Cat doesn't describe Jon as being swaddled or wrapped up when she meets him. Does she? I can't recall what she says precisely.

uhm...I think Jon is already at Winterfell when she arrives with Robb...But I'm not sure where I got that information from. :dunno:

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uhm...I think Jon is already at Winterfell when she arrives with Robb...But I'm not sure where I got that information from. :dunno:

He is at Winterfell. When Cat sees Jon for the first time it's at winterfell after Ned returned from war. Ned is also already back at winterfell. I was trying to recall how Cat describe's meeting Jon for the first time.

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He is at Winterfell. When Cat sees Jon for the first time it's at winterfell after Ned returned from war. Ned is also already back at winterfell. I was trying to recall how Cat describe's meeting Jon for the first time.

Jon and his wetnurse were definitely at WF when Catelyn went there after the war, this is confirmed via a Catelyn chapter. Ned might've been there or only went there later, or taken a longer route (land as opposed to ship), but we don't know whether he was there when Catelyn arrived and found that Jon was already there ;)

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Jon and his wetnurse were definitely at WF when Catelyn went there after the war, this is confirmed via a Catelyn chapter. Ned might've been there or only went there later, or taken a longer route (land as opposed to ship), but we don't know whether he was there when Catelyn arrived and found that Jon was already there ;)

Thanks for the followup info...

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Hi!

First, I'm sorry if this has been said, but I wasn't about to read all 58 threads (tho I did read a lot!!) :P I invite people who are not completly tired of this debate to argue with me :P

The main argument against Jon being Robert's son, is that Jon is brown of hair and we know that " the seed is strong" within Baratheon lineage. BUT the only actual reference to Jon's hair color (I believe) is, and I quote " She [Arya Stark] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother." This means that Arya's brown hair (instead of Tully auburn hair) made her looked like Jon, it doesn't mean Jon has brown hair. Brown is closer to black than it is to auburn, so it would be accurate to say someone's brown hair made them look like someone with black hair rather than someone with aubrun hair.

My other arguments ( which in all the theories I read, I havn't seen) are also when Robert speaks of Lyanna and says " Your [Ned's] sister, safe... and mine again. " which I believe implies he already """had """ her. Robert being the man whore that he is, I doubt he would be SO infatuated with a woman he never had.

Lastely, GRRM is a troll. Everyone thinks Jon is Raeghar's son? That's reason enough for him not to let it be... :P

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Hi!

First, I'm sorry if this has been said, but I wasn't about to read all 58 threads :P I invite people who are not completly tired of this debate to argue with me :P

The main argument against Jon being Robert's son, is that Jon is brown of hair and we know that " the seed is strong" within Baratheon lineage. BUT the only actual reference to Jon's hair color is, and I quote " She [Arya Stark] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother." This means that Arya's brown hair (instead of Tully auburn hair) made her looked like Jon, it doesn't mean Jon has brown hair. Brown is closer to black than it is to auburn, so it would be accurate to say someone's brown hair made them look like someone with black hair rather than someone with aubrun hair.

My other arguments ( which in all the theories I read, I havn't seen) are also when Robert speaks of Lyanna and says " Your [Ned's] sister, safe... and mine again. " which I believe implies he already """had """ her.

Lastely, GRRM is a troll. Everyone thinks Jon is Raeghar's son? That's reason enough for him not to let it be... :P

is that, per GRRM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany who was conceived shortly prior the Sack of KL, which places Jon's birth approximately within a month since the Sack. The Sack was at the end of the Rebellion, which lasted for about a year, and Lyanna went missing some time before it started, i.e. Jon was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion when Robert was nowhere around Lyanna.

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Hi!

First, I'm sorry if this has been said, but I wasn't about to read all 58 threads (tho I did read a lot!!) :P I invite people who are not completly tired of this debate to argue with me :P

The main argument against Jon being Robert's son, is that Jon is brown of hair and we know that " the seed is strong" within Baratheon lineage. BUT the only actual reference to Jon's hair color is, and I quote " She [Arya Stark] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother." This means that Arya's brown hair (instead of Tully auburn hair) made her looked like Jon, it doesn't mean Jon has brown hair. Brown is closer to black than it is to auburn, so it would be accurate to say someone's brown hair made them look like someone with black hair rather than someone with aubrun hair.

My other arguments ( which in all the theories I read, I havn't seen) are also when Robert speaks of Lyanna and says " Your [Ned's] sister, safe... and mine again. " which I believe implies he already """had """ her.

Lastely, GRRM is a troll. Everyone thinks Jon is Raeghar's son? That's reason enough for him not to let it be... :P

You can't read 58 threads but you surely could get some help from the reference guide at the beginning of each thread: here

As for Martin's trolling, have a look at this interview where he clearly states:

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

ETA Everything Ygrain said about chronology plus: why would Ned hide the truth from Jon and from Robert himself??? Why the painful 15 years long secret? Mine simply denotes the way Robert considered the women he desired: private property.

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