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direwolf

Regarding Tyrion

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I dont really see how Tyrion will give Ilyrio any leverage in his move on Westeros, he already has Dany and Varys on his side, and they are the important ones.

Who in Westeros is going to want to work with Tyrion? I see that they're thinking about taking Tyrion's niece, but they can do that without Tyrion. Obviously, his blood ties him to the Iron Throne, but what do Ilyrio and Varys care about that? If they're looking to take the kingdom, they don't need a blood tie.

No one in Westeros really likes Tyrion, so its not like having him in company is going to win the love of the small folk, or any of the knights or lords.

I would think they're main advantage is the secret Targaryen loyalists who will automatically take Dany's side. And I would also think the site of Barriston the Bold would help recruit some Westerosi.

To add to all of this, i remember Ilyrio had some dealings with Stannis' Tyroshi man. Do you think Ilyrio is somehow playing Stannis? Or maybe he's with Stannis?

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He wants Tyrion to be his wise cracking court jester. Soon we shall see Tyrion doing back flips and dressed in motley.

Either that or he wan't tyrion to be his little bird. I mean seriously little kids are so fragile, but an army of dwarf informants, think of the small places they could fit into!!! :lol:

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Yes, but he is a kinslayer, his unattainment and ascnesion would probably sit uneasily with the Westerlords in my opinion. Varys play with Tyrek is definitely the safer bet if that is true.

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Yes, but he is a kinslayer, his unattainment and ascnesion would probably sit uneasily with the Westerlords in my opinion. Varys play with Tyrek is definitely the safer bet if that is true.

Few minded King Maekar sitting the iron throne though. ;)

I could see alot of westerlords following Tyrion over Cersei :sick: any day of the month given that he's got a powerful Queen backing him.

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Tyrion can play the game. They probably want to make him Dany's Hand. I would move this to AFFC but my mouse is malfunctioning. Maybe Werthead will do it.

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With Tyrion, it's all about his abilities. He doesn't even need to be the heir to Casterly Rock to be extremely important. He can be common born and he'd still be important, because he's smart and he's knowledgable.

When you want to conquer a continent, the key is to collect capable people. Can you imagine the battle of Blackwater had Tyrion not been sent to KL by Tywin to be Hand and run things? Stannis would have taken KL for sure. Tyrion is the kind of talent that can be the difference between winning and losing.

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With Tyrion, it's all about his abilities. He doesn't even need to be the heir to Casterly Rock to be extremely important. He can be common born and he'd still be important, because he's smart and he's knowledgable.

When you want to conquer a continent, the key is to collect capable people. Can you imagine the battle of Blackwater had Tyrion not been sent to KL by Tywin to be Hand and run things? Stannis would have taken KL for sure. Tyrion is the kind of talent that can be the difference between winning and losing.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

On top of that too, is the whole "A Lannister pays their debts" thing. Tyrion has certainly proven to me (and likely Varys) that he takes that motto very seriously. If I were anyone in this game of thrones, and had the opportunity to have Tyrion indebted to me, I would definitely be tempted to make that investment.

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Tyrion certainly has skills... Not necessarily at swordplay, but he's intelligent, can be ruthless, and he's a good judge of men. His value to Dany/Illyrio would, imo, be his knowledge of Westeros, and his political acumen. According to Illyrio, Varys has praised the Imp, and told Illyrio to make use of his talents. As it is, though, Illyrio and Varys still seem to mean to use Dany, and I'm not sure how that will work, as Dany is growing into her queenship. Maybe they figure Tyrion will help them keep her under control, directly or indirectly.

Other than that, Tyrion kwew from the get-go that he depended on his name for his livelihood. If he weren't Lord Tywin Lannisters dwarf-son, he'd be in a mummer's party. Westerosi lords and knights, and probably even commoners, don't follow stunted ugly dwarfs to lead them into war, or feel terribly inclined to obey his commands. It's the strong hand behind Tyrion they fear and obey. First it was Tywin, I guess it'll be Dany later on.

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that makes sense. use tyrion as the person out front running things, and Dany and the dragons the "power behind the hand." although honestly, i think dany could do it without tyrion.

hopefully, we find out, in great detail

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With Tyrion, it's all about his abilities. He doesn't even need to be the heir to Casterly Rock to be extremely important. He can be common born and he'd still be important, because he's smart and he's knowledgable.

When you want to conquer a continent, the key is to collect capable people. Can you imagine the battle of Blackwater had Tyrion not been sent to KL by Tywin to be Hand and run things? Stannis would have taken KL for sure. Tyrion is the kind of talent that can be the difference between winning and losing.

Agreed. And Varys knows how brilliant Tyrion is from personal experience as he dealt with Tyrion a lot when Tyrion was a Hand-substitute. Besides his brightness and analytical skills, he has an experience in Westeros politics and knowledge of the players and the affairs of the state that Dany lacks -- grew up watching his father (master politician), later ruled Westeros himself. Varys and Illyrio like their comfort too much and do not want to take obvious risks to join Dany openly, but Tyrion has nothing to lose and he has a bone to pick with Cersei, so he is likely to be willing to help Dany from Illyrio and Varys's standpoint. Why bother themselves when someone else will happily do it instead -- set one Lannister against the other.

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Agreed. And Varys knows how brilliant Tyrion is from personal experience as he dealt with Tyrion a lot when Tyrion was a Hand-substitute. Besides his brightness and analytical skills, he has an experience in Westeros politics and knowledge of the players and the affairs of the state that Dany lacks -- grew up watching his father (master politician), later ruled Westeros himself. Varys and Illyrio like their comfort too much and do not want to take obvious risks to join Dany openly, but Tyrion has nothing to lose and he has a bone to pick with Cersei, so he is likely to be willing to help Dany from Illyrio and Varys's standpoint. Why bother themselves when someone else will happily do it instead -- set one Lannister against the other.

Just out of curiousity, can you give some examples of his brilliance that helped the realm? The wildfire at the blackwater was actually Cersei's idea. Tyrion did do some level headed, able things. (Like the chain, which was a common tactic. Davos wasn't surprised by it, anyway, and sending his wildlings to the only place they would be useful.) But other than that, he seemed to spend most of his time scheming at little petty things with his sister, and trying to sneak around with his whore.

It was also his idea to try to ally with Highgarden, but it was Littlefinger that actually pulled it off. And once again, it doesn't take brilliance to seek out help via a marriage aliance. That's what everybody was doing. The hard part was the negotiation, which Littlefinger handled.

He also seemed to have this angst about not being taken seriously. And yet whenever his father would call him for his counsel, all that he'd have to offer was a bunch of smart ass comments.

I don't particular think he's a good judge of men. He mostly surround himself with people he had 'bought', with the exception of Bywater. And in the end, they all betrayed him. Even his whore. he lost the game when he couldn't pull for a single ally to witness for him in his trial...

So I guess, personally, I don't see why Ilyrio would want a smart ass drunk dwarf who got majorly schooled in the Game of Thrones. :cool:

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yeah, yoren, that last line pretty much sums up why i started this thred. Dont get me wrong though, i love tyrions character, even though he's annoying sometimes.

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Yoren ,

I think you're a bit harsh in judging Tyrion. Not that you're off-target, but I think there is more to Tyrion than infighting with his sister and japing in front of his father.

Just out of curiousity, can you give some examples of his brilliance that helped the realm? The wildfire at the blackwater was actually Cersei's idea. Tyrion did do some level headed, able things. (Like the chain, which was a common tactic. Davos wasn't surprised by it, anyway, and sending his wildlings to the only place they would be useful.) But other than that, he seemed to spend most of his time scheming at little petty things with his sister, and trying to sneak around with his whore.

I agree with you that we haven't seen brilliance in Tyrion, but all the while he's at court, he keeps the kingdom alive in the war. Lord Tywin fights for the king, Tyrion rules for him. From his chapters we learn that Cersei is inept bordering on phsycotic and insane. Keep in mind that Tyrion has always known that his father's money and name are his real power... But with them, he rules effectively, until he's injured in battle, after which the rules of the game change while he lies recovering. In his time at the helm, he keeps the war-effort going, and neutralizes large parts of Cersei's madness. More than this, though, he judges his political matters correctly, he reads the other players correctly, and knows how to make the other players follow his rules. Note, not even sharp astute Lord Tywin saw Littlefinger for what he was, while Tyrion was not fooled.

I don't particular think he's a good judge of men. He mostly surround himself with people he had 'bought', with the exception of Bywater. And in the end, they all betrayed him. Even his whore. he lost the game when he couldn't pull for a single ally to witness for him in his trial...

Yes, but they only betray him because he was taken out of the game. Which was logical, because he depended on his position as Lord Tywin's son for his power. With Lord Tywin there, his powerbase was largely gone, because he could no longer step into the gap provided by Lord Tywin's absence.

What Varys told Illyrio, we simply don't know, but I guess Varys saw Tyrion's potential. His smarts were always there, but he maintained certain illusions (his love for Shae, the concept of justice, thinking he would be loved in he was seen to do well for the people) which withheld him from employing the full measure of ruthlessness. I have a feeling those restraints will be dropped.

Aside from that, I don't think Dany will immediately use him as a personal delegate or something like that... His reputation in Westeros is too vile, and it will have to be remedied somewhat. On the other hand, with Cersei's plots possibly out in the open, some perspective may be applied to Tyrion. I think Tyrion's main use for Dany will be a position as councillor, or Hand or something. He will provide her with certain nuances to her beliefs about Westeros, her father, and the Usurper and his Dogs. It's his judgement and knowledge she needs. Also, Tyrion telling Tywin and the latter's death that he believes he is Tywin "writ small" seemed to me to be foreboding.

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I am willing to bet that the Sons of the Harpy will be dealt with quickly and effectively more or less immediately after Tyrion's arrival to Dany's court ;)

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Tyrion did do some level headed, able things. (Like the chain, which was a common tactic. Davos wasn't surprised by it, anyway, and sending his wildlings to the only place they would be useful.) But other than that, he seemed to spend most of his time scheming at little petty things with his sister, and trying to sneak around with his whore.

It was also his idea to try to ally with Highgarden, but it was Littlefinger that actually pulled it off. And once again, it doesn't take brilliance to seek out help via a marriage aliance.

I don't particular think he's a good judge of men. He mostly surround himself with people he had 'bought', with the exception of Bywater. And in the end, they all betrayed him. Even his whore. he lost the game when he couldn't pull for a single ally to witness for him in his trial...

It’s tough to impress you, Yoren. :) Perhaps, my choice of a word (brilliant) was a bit of exaggeration – what can I say – I like drunken, smart-ass dwarves. But even though you are not awed by the chain idea, or by Highgarden marriage deal, or by swiftly getting rid of Janos Slynt, or by eliminating Pycelle out of the game – thus stripping Cersei of her alliances, I think those were pretty impressive for a rookie. This is the first time Tyrion has any real political power in his hands and he uses it well. In politics and in war it is pretty challenging to come up with any unusual ideas – most of it has been done before. Tyrion also seems to be quite erudite, GRRM says that it’s not unusual for him to spend the night reading, and knowledge is a power. He must have impress Varys as well. As for Illyrio wanting him – Illyrio wanted Viserys (who was useless save his Targaryen blood which is helpful, but not for someone with Viserys' personality) and little Dany (before she hatched the dragons). He is an opportunist and will use anyone with any promise. Tyrion knows the court, the players, he’s well read – don’t think it’s very common in Westeros, save the Reader and the maesters. And, like I said earlier, he has personal reasons to hate his sister, so why would Illyrio sweat and dirty his hands thinking how to eliminate Cersei and her brood (who actually does everything to destroy herself without any help) when Tyrion will be more than willing?

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Guest Other-in-law

Cersei may have wanted to use the wildfire, but there's no indication that she would have done anything effective with it. It wasn't just the chain that Tyrion came up with, it was loading up the older ships with it and letting them drift down to smack into Stannis' fleet and set it ablaze. The chain by itself wouldn't have let the fleet escape, but there wouldn't have been anything to escape from without the wildfire.

And while it's true that such chains have been used elsewhere, my impression is that they were used as a way of keeping the enemy out, not trapping them in, as Tyrion used it.

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Maybe I was a bit harsh on the little guy. :lol: But he did let his obsession with whores cloud his ju

But I guess it's indisputable that Tyrion has lots of experience dealing with self righteous, obsessed, power hungry queens. Maybe that's why Ilyrio wants Tyrion for Dany? :P

Yes, but they only betray him because he was taken out of the game. Which was logical, because he depended on his position as Lord Tywin's son for his power. With Lord Tywin there, his powerbase was largely gone, because he could no longer step into the gap provided by Lord Tywin's absence.

So ultimately, you are saying he only had power because he was Tywin's son, not because he was smart, personable, persuasive, or any other individual trait? Contrast that to someone like Varys or Littlefinger, who are completely self made. They obtained and wield their power based on personal merit. Don't you think Dany would be better of with someone self made?

OK, so maybe that's still a little harsh. Tyrion certainly could have made himself 'self made', but I think he fell back on the ol' "They don't like me because I'm dwarf" a few to many times. He has a bit of the 'victim' mentality.

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for sure he's going to be dany's hand. He's got great strategic skills, knows a lot about dragons (which will come in handy for their training and making their saddles), and has a lot of debts to pay.

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